Underground Bases discussion:

[Han]

This is an off shoot from:

August 27, 2017 — Don Ecker with J. Randall Murphy

 

[Han]

Marduk said:

Ya, it's like the vast underground complexes that are supposed to exist.

Where does the garbage go? Where does the power go in? Why doesn't it show up on IR? How do they feed themselves?

It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I responded:
They seem to manage this on a Nuclear Submarine, with I would imagine much more limited space.
I think the biggest problem with being permanently underground would be a lack of natural sunlight.

I imagine that during the Nuclear standoff they investigated all contingencies, including relocating underground.
If they have developed advanced mining techniques that I have read about, then they could do all sorts of things, in much less time and with greater accuracy than is in practice in the commercial mining sector.

Nuclear submarines run pretty hot.

Their engines are essentially a steam engine that runs off a thermal differential with its environment.

The only reason they don't glow in infrared for satellites is because water is a very good insulator.

And they still need air for folks to breathe, they take on food, and they still expel human waste.

Even folks on the ISS need regular supply runs to keep the humans aboard alive. Wouldn't an underground base, especially a vast one, require a vast amount of resupply? Air ventilators? Power? Sanitation?

 

[marduk]

Marduk said:

I responded:
They seem to manage this on a Nuclear Submarine, with I would imagine much more limited space.
I think the biggest problem with being permanently underground would be a lack of natural sunlight.

I imagine that during the Nuclear standoff they investigated all contingencies, including relocating underground.
If they have developed advanced mining techniques that I have read about, then they could do all sorts of things, in much less time and with greater accuracy than is in practice in the commercial mining sector.

Some underground facilities are well known. I'm not saying some don't exist. For example Cheyenne Mountain.

I'm saying the accounts of massive underground cities with tunnels that cross the continent - there's just no evidence for them.

 

[Han]

I think a Submarine or a Space station are a much more difficult proposition than going underground.

I think the only real obstacle would be cash.

It is a fair point that just because something is possible doesn't necessarily mean it is a reality, but I would be very suprised if they were not already doing this, and I suspect they have been since the invention of rifled barrels and HE munitions in the 1800s.

Undermining your enemy is pretty much as old school as it gets. And the use or adaptation of 'natural' fortifications even older still. A castle on a hill is worth two in a valley.
It is no coincidence that our ancestors are referred to as cavemen because they were just that, they relied and depended upon the protection of the cave in order to better survive.
It is easy to underestimate what can be achieved with rudimentary tools and sheer hard work and determination, but there is evidence across the entire globe (some of it underwater now) that we have been able to move vast (even by modern standards) volumes of material for eons.
for example the 'long barrows' here in England or the Earthworks around Wisconsin (USA).
As for actual mining through rock Petra in Jordan or "Derinkuyu" (modern day turkey) are much more recent but give a hint at what was to come:

The picture above is from "Derinkuyu"

the one below is of Bethnal Green tube (underground/metro) station during the blitz in WWII:

I chose that image because people were not supposed to be using the tube as a shelter, but it was the only logical option given the situation topside.

hitler hid in his underground bunker when Berlin was being bombed, and he had sanctioned the building of for example the underground factory called "Mittlewerk".

This factory and U-Boat pens were basically invulnerable to conventional bombs at the time, and a special 'bunker buster' called a 'Grand Slam' had to be developed in order to destroy them.
But even then they knew exactly where they had to drop the bombs in the first place.

When the A-bomb was tested it was obvious that such was it potential for devastation the only defense would be sheltering somewhere the blast could not penetrate, i.e in a deep underground reinforced 'bunker'.
It is not referred to as a nuclear winter for nothing, and only those that had squirreled away enough resources would survive, but only if they and there provisions were in a viable location to survive the initial 'blast'.

more to follow:

 

[Randall]

... I think the biggest problem with being permanently underground would be a lack of natural sunlight.

In an interesting video I posted on the electromagnetic hypersensitivity issue ( posted again below ), there's a segment near the start that covers an experiment with people in sealed in a bunker who were studied for exactly this kind of effect. Apparently when the correct frequency of EM pulses ( known as Schumann Resonance ) were added, it made a huge difference, essentially facilitating normal, sleep-wake cycles and feelings of well being. Nowadays with all the EM pollution, it might actually be better to be in an underground shielded facility where Schumann Resonance can be properly replicated.

Resonance - Beings of Frequency

​

 

[marduk]

I think a Submarine or a Space station are a much more difficult proposition than going underground.

I think the only real obstacle would be cash.

It is a fair point that just because something is possible doesn't necessarily mean it is a reality, but I would be very suprised if they were not already doing this, and I suspect they have been since the invention of rifled barrels and HE munitions in the 1800s.

Undermining your enemy is pretty much as old school as it gets. And the use or adaptation of 'natural' fortifications even older still. A castle on a hill is worth two in a valley.
It is no coincidence that our ancestors are referred to as cavemen because they were just that, they relied and depended upon the protection of the cave in order to better survive.
It is easy to underestimate what can be achieved with rudimentary tools and sheer hard work and determination, but there is evidence across the entire globe (some of it underwater now) that we have been able to move vast (even by modern standards) volumes of material for eons.
for example the 'long barrows' here in England or the Earthworks around Wisconsin (USA).
As for actual mining through rock Petra in Jordan or "Derinkuyu" (modern day turkey) are much more recent but give a hint at what was to come:

The picture above is from "Derinkuyu"

the one below is of Bethnal Green tube (underground/metro) station during the blitz in WWII:

I chose that image because people were not supposed to be using the tube as a shelter, but it was the only logical option given the situation topside.

hitler hid in his underground bunker when Berlin was being bombed, and he had sanctioned the building of for example the underground factory called "Mittlewerk".

This factory and U-Boat pens were basically invulnerable to conventional bombs at the time, and a special 'bunker buster' called a 'Grand Slam' had to be developed in order to destroy them.
But even then they knew exactly where they had to drop the bombs in the first place.

When the A-bomb was tested it was obvious that such was it potential for devastation the only defense would be sheltering somewhere the blast could not penetrate, i.e in a deep underground reinforced 'bunker'.
It is not referred to as a nuclear winter for nothing, and only those that had squirreled away enough resources would survive, but only if they and there provisions were in a viable location to survive the initial 'blast'.

more to follow:

Survival shelters? Sure. You don't have them manned. You dig it out, put the infrastructure and supplies in, and you leave.

Even the U2 tunnels had rail lines, power plants, food going in and garbage coming out. Because people don't live well in closed systems.

They do die well in closed systems though.

 

[mike]

Mankind is still pretty young, we mastered fire a half million years ago, but artificial cold only 200 odd years ago.

I think any species that lasts long enough might look at moving underground.

Its worth noting that in my own experience the entity gave off a slight glow, not enough to light the room but i observed some light.

The Shining Ones appear in many myths and cultures by different names and descriptions,
but always as gods or creational forces of light.
They are generally described as tall ethereal beings who are in truth extraterrestrial.

The Shining Ones, Anunnaki, Nephilim, Giants, Book of the Dead - Crystalinks

It might make sense if you were engineering a life form for underground existence to give it bio luminescence and big black light sensitive eyes.........

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Or life form of Robotic Artificial Intelligence .

 

[Randall]

Mankind is still pretty young, we mastered fire a half million years ago, but artificial cold only 200 odd years ago.

I think any species that lasts long enough might look at moving underground.

Its worth noting that in my own experience the entity gave off a slight glow, not enough to light the room but i observed some light.


The Shining Ones, Anunnaki, Nephilim, Giants, Book of the Dead - Crystalinks

It might make sense if you were engineering a life form for underground existence to give it bio luminescence and big black light sensitive eyes.........

Where can we review your experience again ?

BTW: some of the photos in the link you provided appear to have debunked as hoaxes:

• FALSE: Giant Skeleton Uncovered in Saudi Arabia
• Giant hoax - creation.com

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

If there were hundreds of deep secret underground bases more of these operatives would be caught around the locations.
U.S. Nuclear Engineer Sentenced to 24 Months in Prison for Violating the Atomic Energy Act
Chinese National Sentenced to Three Years for Attempting to Illegally Export High-Grade Carbon Fiber to China

 

[Han]

Survival shelters? Sure. You don't have them manned. You dig it out, put the infrastructure and supplies in, and you leave.

Even the U2 tunnels had rail lines, power plants, food going in and garbage coming out. Because people don't live well in closed systems.

They do die well in closed systems though.

I looked up open and closed systems and read the following:

An open system includes the transfer and exchange of both matter and energy with the system's surroundings. All of the systems on Earth are classified as open systems. However, the Earth system as a whole is considered a closed system because there is a limit to how much matter is exchanged.

System Earth, Part 1 | edHelper.com

I interpret that as saying that Earth is a closed system made up of open ones.

I believe that we could send people to mars with current technology, it wouldn't be easy but it could be done.
I think that subterranean survival would be a piece of cake in comparison.
I don't think that it could be achieved by any other organisation other than a military one though, only they would have access to the kind of cash and manpower required, but maybe more importantly the would have use of the most advanced technology available.

If they have the ability to dig the tunnels by melting the rock and simultaneously forming it into shafts, they could have very neat and strong tunnels waiting to be lined and or reinforced.
Obviously the temperatures involved would be mind boggling but it is theoretically possible. (think of a hot skewer and polystyrene). This could also be remotely controlled or even automated.
I would also imagine that they are in possession of ultra high tech scanning equipment meaning that they are better able to see faults and such other natural hazards and change course before they become an issue.

Some of the early railway tunnels were dug by sweat, pick and shovel, with two teams starting from either side of the obstacle and even with relatively rudimentary measuring kit they generally managed to meet in the middle. The accuracy available today must be much much greater.

I don't imagine that they have an entirely closed system, but I suspect that they can close it off, batten down the hatches if you like, if the need arose.
Unlike a sub they couldn't move around, so they would probably have multiple access points (like snorkels). Maybe I am not doing a very good job of explaining this, I am thinking of a system of roots (but in this case going from below to above) that could replenish or expel things like air or water, but with the ability to be opened or closed.

I am thinking of a Crocodile hiding in murky water, all I can see are his nostrils and his eyes, yet it is a huge animal.

TBC

 

[marduk]

I looked up open and closed systems and read the following:

An open system includes the transfer and exchange of both matter and energy with the system's surroundings. All of the systems on Earth are classified as open systems. However, the Earth system as a whole is considered a closed system because there is a limit to how much matter is exchanged.

System Earth, Part 1 | edHelper.com

I interpret that as saying that Earth is a closed system made up of open ones.

Pretty much, except it's not closed to energy. Almost every process on Earth save things like geological erosion and life based on geothermal energy is based off of solar energy.

I believe that we could send people to mars with current technology, it wouldn't be easy but it could be done.

It could have been done with Apollo technology. Energetically, getting to Mars and the Moon is about even.

I think that subterranean survival would be a piece of cake in comparison.
I don't think that it could be achieved by any other organisation other than a military one though, only they would have access to the kind of cash and manpower required, but maybe more importantly the would have use of the most advanced technology available.

Could people do it? Sure. With continual resupply, you can stick humans in a can almost anywhere.

The question for me would be: how big and why?

Manning a command and control base is one thing. Manning a secret small city - or a number of them - is different.

And keeping them all hidden from continual view from civilian and other countries militaries is another thing altogether.

The economics are profoundly wacky. The logistics are wacky. The premise is wacky. There's no compelling evidence I'm aware of to think there is such a thing.

If they have the ability to dig the tunnels by melting the rock and simultaneously forming it into shafts, they could have very neat and strong tunnels waiting to be lined and or reinforced.
Obviously the temperatures involved would be mind boggling but it is theoretically possible. (think of a hot skewer and polystyrene). This could also be remotely controlled or even automated.
I would also imagine that they are in possession of ultra high tech scanning equipment meaning that they are better able to see faults and such other natural hazards and change course before they become an issue.

Some of the early railway tunnels were dug by sweat, pick and shovel, with two teams starting from either side of the obstacle and even with relatively rudimentary measuring kit they generally managed to meet in the middle. The accuracy available today must be much much greater.

I don't imagine that they have an entirely closed system, but I suspect that they can close it off, batten down the hatches if you like, if the need arose.
Unlike a sub they couldn't move around, so they would probably have multiple access points (like snorkels). Maybe I am not doing a very good job of explaining this, I am thinking of a system of roots (but in this case going from below to above) that could replenish or expel things like air or water, but with the ability to be opened or closed.

I am thinking of a Crocodile hiding in murky water, all I can see are his nostrils and his eyes, yet it is a huge animal.

TBC

Digging the holes isn't the problem I'm getting at. It's the logistics of keeping it going that we just don't see any evidence of.

 

[Han]

Pretty much, except it's not closed to energy. Almost every process on Earth save things like geological erosion and life based on geothermal energy is based off of solar energy.



It could have been done with Apollo technology. Energetically, getting to Mars and the Moon is about even.


Could people do it? Sure. With continual resupply, you can stick humans in a can almost anywhere.

The question for me would be: how big and why?

Manning a command and control base is one thing. Manning a secret small city - or a number of them - is different.

And keeping them all hidden from continual view from civilian and other countries militaries is another thing altogether.

The economics are profoundly wacky. The logistics are wacky. The premise is wacky. There's no compelling evidence I'm aware of to think there is such a thing.



Digging the holes isn't the problem I'm getting at. It's the logistics of keeping it going that we just don't see any evidence of.

 

[Randall]

... Some of the early railway tunnels were dug by sweat, pick and shovel, with two teams starting from either side of the obstacle and even with relatively rudimentary measuring kit they generally managed to meet in the middle. The accuracy available today must be much much greater ...

TBM Tunnel Construction

 

[marduk]

The chunnel cost $21B, is 50km long, and consists of two tunnels 7.m wide. It represents approx 3 million square meters of volume.

For some reference, this is approximately the volume of the 2100 houses alone in Wright-Patterson by my back of the envelope calculations.

So that would be $21B in housing alone for a base that size. Call it what... 10x for the actual base? $210B? That's just for the holes and basic infrastructure. Then you gotta fill it with stuff. Call it $500B? How would you build it in secret? Where would the 30 million square meters of dirt go? Thats more than 10 great pyramids of Giza. And it would take decades to build.

Then you have to keep it hidden forever, and that would include the 30,000 military and contractors running the place.

How would you keep those 30,000 people from talking? Put them down there and lock the door? How would you circulate the air? How would you feed them? Where would their crap go?

And why would you do it?

 

[Randall]

The chunnel cost $21B, is 50km long, and consists of two tunnels 7.m wide. It represents approx 3 million square meters of volume.

For some reference, this is approximately the volume of the 2100 houses alone in Wright-Patterson by my back of the envelope calculations.

So that would be $21B in housing alone for a base that size. Call it what... 10x for the actual base? $210B? That's just for the holes and basic infrastructure. Then you gotta fill it with stuff. Call it $500B? How would you build it in secret? Where would the 30 million square meters of dirt go? Thats more than 10 great pyramids of Giza. And it would take decades to build.

Then you have to keep it hidden forever, and that would include the 30,000 military and contractors running the place.

How would you keep those 30,000 people from talking? Put them down there and lock the door? How would you circulate the air? How would you feed them? Where would their crap go?

And why would you do it?

Well they did it with the Cheyenne Mountain Complex: Cheyenne Mountain Complex - Wikipedia
And they did it at The Denver International: Under Colorado: The secret tunnels of Denver International Airport
And they did it with the LHC:The Large Hadron Collider | CERN

So we have the technology and have built underground facilities and bases, so it's possible there's more we don't about, and if it's possible and it's been done more than once that we know about, I'd say the chances are high that there are more we don't know about. But that doesn't mean all the stuff claimed by fringe theorists is out there. I really doubt a lot of that.

 

[marduk]

Well they did it with the Cheyenne Mountain Complex: Cheyenne Mountain Complex - Wikipedia
And they did it at The Denver International: Under Colorado: The secret tunnels of Denver International Airport
And they did it with the LHC:The Large Hadron Collider | CERN

So we have the technology and have built underground facilities and bases, so it's possible there's more we don't about, and if it's possible and it's been done more than once that we know about, I'd say the chances are high that there are more we don't know about. But that doesn't mean all the stuff claimed by fringe theorists is out there. I really doubt a lot of that.

Cheyenne is a good example.

It's actually only 15 3 story buildings, and yet it has a whole external power plant, gate, roadway, security perimeter, and constant traffic going in and out. There's essentially a whole base outside of the base who's function is support for the underground facility.

I don't know that it even has a permanent or near permanent staff that lives inside of it - only works inside of it. Operational capacity seems to be between 300 and 150 people.

For some context, that's smaller than one of our office towers for the company I work for, and has the working capacity for two of its floors.

And it shows up clearly on sat photos.

If we have whole mesas operating as secret underground bases the size of cities, how would that work?

 

[Randall]

Cheyenne is a good example.

It's actually only 15 3 story buildings, and yet it has a whole external power plant, gate, roadway, security perimeter, and constant traffic going in and out. There's essentially a whole base outside of the base who's function is support for the underground facility.

I don't know that it even has a permanent or near permanent staff that lives inside of it - only works inside of it. Operational capacity seems to be between 300 and 150 people.

For some context, that's smaller than one of our office towers for the company I work for, and has the working capacity for two of its floors.

And it shows up clearly on sat photos.

If we have whole mesas operating as secret underground bases the size of cities, how would that work?

Exactly. That's the same sort of reasoning I use to doubt the breakaway civilization hypothesis. Civilizations don't just mean a few craft stashed in some secret base. Of course secret bases are another story. I can imagine there are probably a few of those built by us humans, and I wouldn't be surprised if the aliens have a couple of them as well. But that opens up that whole can of worms.

Consequently, when topics get out there into the fringe zone, I tend to emphasize more with your sentiments on the usefulness of unsubstantiated speculation. At least ( for me ) we know alien craft are real. But getting into alien bases is the first step on that slippery slope down to reptilians running Parliament.

 

[marduk]

At least ( for me ) we know alien craft are real.

Even after multiple sightings by what looked like machines being intelligently controlled...

I'm still not even there yet some days.

I have an opinion that they're real, that they're machines, that they're intelligently operated (or intelligent themselves), and the most likely origin for that intelligence is another solar system...

But I guess that's just an opinion, not knowledge. For me.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Not ignoring few Trillion in paper clips and yeah those folks get medals for doing that. Also the fact Bravemen and Women a dying overseas in historical generational wars. A Funeral of 2 Friends: C.I.A. Deaths Rise in Secret Afghan War