Death!

[smcder]

Be not proud ... tell me what do you think of death? How do you feel about it? How close have you come to it? Let's talk about it.

And as a result of your thoughts and feelings, your philosphy and belief ... what have you done to prepare for it? What have you done to remove its sting ... ?

I'm interested in stories and experiences, real, visceral stuff - paranormal and "mundane".

Theory is good too ... and on the paranormal side ... the history of NDEs began with an "Er" believe it or not ... NDEs, OBEs, deathbed visions, reincarnation, communication with the dead, it's all fair game.

 

[Constance]

Excellent idea for a thread, Steve. How about beginning with NDEs and what they suggest about survival of conciousness?

 

[Randall]

One of the questions I sometimes ask others is, "If you could choose to live forever would you want to?", and a surprising number of answers are negative. I'm not among that group, and I'm constantly surprised by those who prefer an eventual certain death over eternal life. Some explain that they look forward to moving on to the next life ( Heaven or reincarnation ), but if that's the case then they're not really facing death. They're facing continued life in another context. When asked to imagine if that weren't an option they tend to become confused and uncomfortable. They need their belief and don't want it challenged.

Those who don't have any notions of an afterlife, but still don't want eternal life, tend to base their preference on the idea that after a while everything would become so boring and unpleasant as to be an eternal condemnation rather than an eternal blessing. If my poll, as unscientific as it may be, accurately reflects the way that the majority of the population feels about life, I suppose it's little wonder that so many people are on happy pills ... LOL . There's certainly more than one way to look at it and here's one of my favorites ... enjoy .

Saga Of Biorn

( Probably a repost, but I couldn't find the first one to link to - sorry )​

 

[boomerang]

Be not proud ... tell me what do you think of death? How do you feel about it? How close have you come to it? Let's talk about it.

And as a result of your thoughts and feelings, your philosphy and belief ... what have you done to prepare for it? What have you done to remove its sting ... ?

I'm interested in stories and experiences, real, visceral stuff - paranormal and "mundane".

Theory is good too ... and on the paranormal side ... the history of NDEs began with an "Er" believe it or not ... NDEs, OBEs, deathbed visions, reincarnation, communication with the dead, it's all fair game.

An excellent topic indeed. A few paradoxes:

-A close brush with one's own death can be exhilarating. It can give zest and meaning to life. But being almost responsible for the accidental death or injury of one or a hundred others is one of the most sickening feelings imaginable. I have known both. My heart goes out to anyone who has been unintentionally responsible for the injury of another. I was thankfully spared my stupidity and can chalk a close call up to a simple but potentially horrid mistake. Life can be capricious.

-As Joe Rogan observes: "Everyone wants to sleep. But no one wants to die". Worth pondering, I think.

-We are most inclined to taunt death when we are young and have the most to lose. Go figure.

Perhaps the human mind is incapable of grasping the concept of eternity: an infinity of time. I likewise find it hard to conceive of an eternal afterlife in which the identity that characterizes this life would be forever meaningful. Or perhaps, a some Buddhists might say, each particular moment is eternity. The human perception of time, as experienced by those in states altered by illness, injury or psychotropics, is quite elastic. Time may even may lose its meaning altogether. So already, in attempting to imagine an eternal afterlife, we on somewhat unsteady ground.

I must agree with the Buddhist notion that what makes us so philosophically concerned about death and a possible afterlife is the condition of human suffering. How many people in the throes of ecstasy, or even having a beautiful day in good health, spend time worrying over death and a possible afterlife?

My personal feelings, and they are just that, are somewhat bifurcated. Perhaps this consensual reality simply collapses. In which case this limited life is indeed our eternity. Or perhaps whatever barrier defines us an individuated entity in a vast ocean of consciousness dissolves, allowing our lives to become memories incorporated into a larger sentience. There is an inherent beauty in this.

NDE's, which seemingly have some traction, may point to the latter. Maybe.

At the end of the day, we are left with something like Hamlet's famous soliloquy. We simply cannot know.

 

[smcder]

An excellent topic indeed. A few paradoxes:

-A close brush with one's own death can be exhilarating. It can give zest and meaning to life. But being almost responsible for the accidental death or injury of one or a hundred others is one of the most sickening feelings imaginable. I have known both. My heart goes out to anyone who has been unintentionally responsible for the injury of another. I was thankfully spared my stupidity and can chalk a close call up to a simple but potentially horrid mistake. Life can be capricious.

-As Joe Rogan observes: "Everyone wants to sleep. But no one wants to die". Worth pondering, I think.

-We are most inclined to taunt death when we are young and have the most to lose. Go figure.

Perhaps the human mind is incapable of grasping the concept of eternity: an infinity of time. I likewise find it hard to conceive of an eternal afterlife in which the identity that characterizes this life would be forever meaningful. Or perhaps, a some Buddhists might say, each particular moment is eternity. The human perception of time, as experienced by those in states altered by illness, injury or psychotropics, is quite elastic. Time may even may lose its meaning altogether. So already, in attempting to imagine an eternal afterlife, we on somewhat unsteady ground.

I must agree with the Buddhist notion that what makes us so philosophically concerned about death and a possible afterlife is the condition of human suffering. How many people in the throes of ecstasy, or even having a beautiful day in good health, spend time worrying over death and a possible afterlife?

My personal feelings, and they are just that, are somewhat bifurcated. Perhaps this consensual reality simply collapses. In which case this limited life is indeed our eternity. Or perhaps whatever barrier defines us an individuated entity in a vast ocean of consciousness dissolves, allowing our lives to become memories incorporated into a larger sentience. There is an inherent beauty in this.

NDE's, which seemingly have some traction, may point to the latter. Maybe.

At the end of the day, we are left with something like Hamlet's famous soliloquy. We simply cannot know.

Thank you for sharing your open paragraph, that is the kind of thing I am interested in ... and there are conditions under which would rather die. I was discussing the kinds of decisions made around medical care in terms of prolonging life and the paradoxes of medical intervention that leads ultimately to prolonged suffering - have we, on balance, progressed? Yes and no.

Perhaps the human mind is incapable of grasping the concept of eternity: an infinity of time. I likewise find it hard to conceive of an eternal afterlife in which the identity that characterizes this life would be forever meaningful. Or perhaps, a some Buddhists might say, each particular moment is eternity. The human perception of time, as experienced by those in states altered by illness, injury or psychotropics, is quite elastic. Time may even may lose its meaning altogether. So already, in attempting to imagine an eternal afterlife, we on somewhat unsteady ground.

The Buddha actually left certain questions famously unanswered ... there are ten in the Pali texts, 14 in the Sanskrit, including questions about life after death.

I share your sentiments about my identity in an eternal context. I think it would be a shame for all of my experiences to be simply lost or even only relegated to the memory of others after my death ... but it might be so. It might be that we are only remembered by God after death - that could be enough. Religious discussion rarely includes the possibility of belief in God without personal immortality and similarly salvation without immortality. I can conceive of a kind of eternal intelligence and even personality - but I cannot imagine an eternal me ... I would have to become part of something bigger ... in my present thinking. But I am eager to hear from others who have other thoughts.

Imagining a timeless state though is hard to reconcile with identity, we, as individuals, are defined explicitly in terms of time ... Heidegger does a bit on this, as @Constance can put more eloquently than I.

Thank you for your comments!

 

[smcder]

One of the questions I sometimes ask others is, "If you could choose to live forever would you want to?", and a surprising number of answers are negative. I'm not among that group, and I'm constantly surprised by those who prefer an eventual certain death over eternal life. Some explain that they look forward to moving on to the next life ( Heaven or reincarnation ), but if that's the case then they're not really facing death. They're facing continued life in another context. When asked to imagine if that weren't an option they tend to become confused and uncomfortable. They need their belief and don't want it challenged.

Those who don't have any notions of an afterlife, but still don't want eternal life, tend to base their preference on the idea that after a while everything would become so boring and unpleasant as to be an eternal condemnation rather than an eternal blessing. If my poll, as unscientific as it may be, accurately reflects the way that the majority of the population feels about life, I suppose it's little wonder that so many people are on happy pills ... LOL . There's certainly more than one way to look at it and here's one of my favorites ... enjoy .

Saga Of Biorn

( Probably a repost, but I couldn't find the first one to link to - sorry )​

Unfortunately, I'm not able to watch videos - I live in a rural area with slow internet.

Yes, such a poll is unscientific, depending as it is on who you ask, when you ask (sometimes, depending on your mood I guess?), what exactly you ask - do you always ask the same question in exactly the same way in the same context of a conversation ...your approach is rife with selection bias in other words - and so if it matches the way the majority of the population feels (and you do not specify which population) then it could only do so purely by chance.

I think the safest thing to do then is dismiss this as a conversation you sometimes have with other people (and who knows if you accurately total up the answers in your head or tend to remember things according to your bias?) and then an opinion you have reported. So there really isn't anything we can generalize about as a result. Now, we could look at official polls on the topic and research on the connection between these attitudes and psychiatric medications (I assume that is what you mean by "happy pills"?) - but I'm not interested ... I've looked at the data and none of it is immune to criticism, some of it is clearly biased depending on who funded the study.

As to "happy pills" I take them and they have been very beneficial to me for a long time. I don't think there is any shame for those who need them, they are a medical intervention, nor do I think folks should take inordinate pride in not taking them ... if they don't need them, it could be due to genetics (in which case, we all have a mix of genes) or it could be something about the way they think, some of this can be learned - cognitive therapy, for example - but if they do need them and refuse to take them merely out of pride, then that's silly and costs themselves and others needlessly.

So, what I'm more interested in is personal thoughts, feelings and experiences - real people. I'm not interested in establishing scientific or even critical thinking standards ... I'm interested in story and narrative and passionately so and that's what I want people to bring to this discussion.

Boomerang provided an excellent opening post and it receives my imprimatur.

We will also be discussing NDEs and OBEs and survival of bodily death - @Constance has a number of resources in this area.

I will put up the disclaimer now:

this is an informal discussion, the ideas, studies and other resources presented will be of varying quality - although I believe some may be top notch, it is always on the reader to make up his or her own mind. I have respect for the intelligence of the readers of this forum and I think it can be left at that.

 

[smcder]

First recorded report of an NDE ... the story of Er:

Near-death experiences - Plato's account

"The oldest surviving explicit reports of a near-death experience in Western literature is Plato's legend of Er, a soldier who awoke on his funeral pyre. But this story is not just a random anecdote for Plato. He integrated at least three elements of the near-death experience into his philosophy: the departure of the soul from the cave of shadows to see the light of truth, the flight of the soul to a vision of pure celestial being and its subsequent recollection of the vision of light, which is the very purpose of philosophy.
In the Tenth Book of the "Republic", Plato concludes his discussion of immortal soul and ultimate justice with the legend of Er. Traditional Greek culture had no strong faith in ultimate justice, as monotheistic faiths do. Ancestral spirits lingered in a dark, miserable underworld Hades, regardless of their behavior in this life, with no reward or punishment, as Odysseus learned in his "Odyssey". But Plato, perhaps importing some Orphic, Egyptian or Zoroastrian themes, drew on the idea of an otherworldly reward or punishment to motivate virtuous behavior in this life.

The first point of Er's story is to report on this cosmic justice; it is: ...."

 

[Ufocurious]

Great idea for a thread.
My 2 cents:
I always knew I am not afraid of death. However, I could not know for sure until the day I was hit from behind on a bridge (Clearwater - Tampa) by a a drunk driver. While I was spinning and hoping not to fall of the bridge I had enough time to think that I did not want my kids to live a life without a mother, and that drowning is a bad way to go. Luckily I was able to drive from the accident scene. And with the feeling that death does not scare me. Suffering does.

If I can choose my death, I would like to go to sleep one day, and wake up in the other side the next.
I am 95% sure we survive in another dimension. I keep 5% to the chance of being wrong. But the option is nothingness, and that does not hurt.

 

[smcder]

Great idea for a thread.
My 2 cents:
I always knew I am not afraid of death. However, I could not know for sure until the day I was hit from behind on a bridge (Clearwater - Tampa) by a a drunk driver. While I was spinning and hoping not to fall of the bridge I had enough time to think that I did not want my kids to live a life without a mother, and that drowning is a bad way to go. Luckily I was able to drive from the accident scene. And with the feeling that death does not scare me. Suffering does.

If I can choose my death, I would like to go to sleep one day, and wake up in the other side the next.
I am 95% sure we survive in another dimension. I keep 5% to the chance of being wrong. But the option is nothingness, and that does not hurt.

Great story - thank you for sharing!

@boomerang I meant to respond to this:

"-We are most inclined to taunt death when we are young and have the most to lose. Go figure."

That's not been my experience, being older I like to think I can assess the odds better and I look back and see the risks I took mostly weren't as great as I thought (or the risks I thought I was taking weren't the real risks) - now I am aware of and take different kinds of risks and taunt death in a different way. I also think in my case I now have more to lose precisely because I am more aware of what I have to lose. All I have lost so far is a little time ... and what, as you say, exactly is time?

 

[smcder]

So that's another question to add on: if you could live forever, what would you do?

Or even if you could live 500 years or a thousand ... and how would a greatly extended life change the way we look at death? Life now seems so short that how much time do we want to spend thinking of death? Is that less so if we live 10 times as long? Do we keep having children? Lovers? Would we need greatly enhanced memories or would we be content, if we had a choice, to let them go into the ages ... ? Could we decide which memories to keep by rehearsing them or keeping more meticulous records? Or would we just grow tired of them? What would happen to favorite foods and movies and other experiences ....? People become quite desperate in developed countries now for novel stimulation ....

Could greatly extended lives become more and more about memory?

Or, if we don't live on in the body ... if we live on in a discarnate form - how would we answer that question? What would one do in a discarnate form or other there other forms to take on the other side?

... or if we have a new bodily resurrection, either in the Christian sense or in the silicone sense, a new, perfect, or greatly improved incarnation ... what would we want of this? I'm an OEM guy myself and I think there would be enormous psychologically barriers for someone like me to be in a silicone body ... but some may look forward to this!

 

[Randall]

So, what I'm more interested in is personal thoughts, feelings and experiences - real people.

The people I've talked with informally about the subject are real people expressing their personal thoughts, feelings and experiences, and I'd estimate that over the years I've discussed it with around 200+ people, either in person or in forums not unlike this one. Also, the comment about happy pills wasn't a slight on people who take antidepressants, but to point out what might be a cultural connection between the base desire to live and the underlying dissatisfaction many people seem to have with life, to the extent that they medicate themselves to deal with it. What would your answer be if you were given the opportunity to become immortal?

So that's another question to add on: if you could live forever, what would you do?

I suppose that depends on if I knew I was immortal or was simply hoping for that to happen. If I knew, then I think I'd start saving to eventually become financially independent. Being over 55 now, I don't have enough time left in a normal lifespan or make enough money to reach financial independence.

Apart from that I'd experience life over time and work toward interstellar travel. Eventually the Earth will end up in the Sun's atmosphere, and I don't think I'd want to live an eternity there. But in the meantime, just being alive this long has been an amazing journey. Life now is almost like living in a science fiction film compared to what it was like when I was a small child. I can only imagine what it would be like in the next 500 years. I'm confident that it will be amazing.

... and how would a greatly extended life change the way we look at death? Life now seems so short that how much time do we want to spend thinking of death? Is that less so if we live 10 times as long? Do we keep having children? Lovers? Would we need greatly enhanced memories or would we be content, if we had a choice, to let them go into the ages ... ? Could we decide which memories to keep by rehearsing them or keeping more meticulous records? Or would we just grow tired of them?

I would think that being granted immortality would have to change our views on death. How could it not? Life and death are two sides of the same coin. I think a lot would depend on how many others were granted immortality. An interesting sc-fi study that deals with a number of the questions you raised above is a book called The Karma Machine by Michael Davidson. It's somewhere around Grade B+ so far as sci-fi goes. I enjoyed it a lot though.

What would happen to favorite foods and movies and other experiences ....? People become quite desperate in developed countries now for novel stimulation ....

I seem to recall an episode of Start Trek TNG where the super-race of immortals known as The Q ran into this same problem: Q Continuum - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

Could greatly extended lives become more and more about memory?

Maybe. In the movie Highlander, the main character is faced with the deaths of virtually everyone he knew during his normal lifespan and his memories of those he loved most were all he had left. He denied himself the opportunity to get too attached because he knew the same thing would just happen again, and again, and again.

Or, if we don't live on in the body ... if we live on in a discarnate form - how would we answer that question? What would one do in a discarnate form or other there other forms to take on the other side?

I have no idea. I guess that depends on if that existence represents true immortality of not. I think that if it did, then there would be a lot less fear of the consequences of your actions.

... or if we have a new bodily resurrection, either in the Christian sense or in the silicone sense, a new, perfect, or greatly improved incarnation ... what would we want of this? I'm an OEM guy myself and I think there would be enormous psychologically barriers for someone like me to be in a silicone body ... but some may look forward to this!

I like that characterization: "OEM guy". I tend to empathize more with that than going into the so-called Kurzweilian singularity. But then again who knows. We recently checked out the movie Transcendence, which deals with what that might be like on a superficial level. Regarding the Christian version. I think I'd probably want to find the big Trinity and kick all three of them in the shins on general principle alone .

 

[smcder]

The people I've talked with informally about the subject are real people expressing their personal thoughts, feelings and experiences, and I'd estimate that over the years I've discussed it with around 200+ people, either in person or in forums not unlike this one. Also, the comment about happy pills wasn't a on slight people who take antidepressants, but to point out what might be a cultural connection between the base desire to live and the underlying dissatisfaction many people seem to have with life, to the extent that they medicate themselves to deal with it. What would your answer be if you were given the opportunity to become immortal?

Do you have any records of the conversations that you could share? Even tallies - percentages, etc - breakouts along relevant demographics ... along with the exact question(s) you asked? When did you ask people? Time of year, how far apart, did you talk to 100 and then ten years later talk to another 25, because you and your perceptions are constantly changing. That's why a poll has to be done in a specific way. If not, then it's just your general sense of those conversations.

My point about real people is I want to hear it from them, individually, not in aggregate ... their stories - your story. How do you feel about death? Right now and at 4am in the middle of the night when you've gotten a phone call with bad news? On your best day, your worst day? Have you ever wanted to die? Even for a moment?

Your question to me:

"What would your answer be if you were given the opportunity to become immortal?"

... lacks specificity.

 

[smcder]

The people I've talked with informally about the subject are real people expressing their personal thoughts, feelings and experiences, and I'd estimate that over the years I've discussed it with around 200+ people, either in person or in forums not unlike this one. Also, the comment about happy pills wasn't a on slight people who take antidepressants, but to point out what might be a cultural connection between the base desire to live and the underlying dissatisfaction many people seem to have with life, to the extent that they medicate themselves to deal with it. What would your answer be if you were given the opportunity to become immortal?

I suppose that depends on if I knew I was immortal or was simply hoping for that to happen. If I knew, then I think I'd start saving to eventually become financially independent. Being over 55 now, I don't have enough time left in a normal lifespan or make enough money to reach financial independence.

Apart from that I'd experience life over time and work toward interstellar travel. Eventually the Earth will end up in the Sun's atmosphere, and I don't think I'd want to live an eternity there. But in the meantime, just being alive this long has been an amazing journey. Life now is almost like living in a science fiction film compared to what it was like when I was a small child. I can only imagine what it would be like in the next 500 years. I'm confident that it will be amazing.


I would think that being granted immortality would have to change our views on death. How could it not? Life and death are two sides of the same coin. I think a lot would depend on how many others were granted immortality. An interesting sc-fi study that deals with a number of the questions you raised above is a book called The Karma Machine by Michael Davidson. It's somewhere around Grade B+ so far as sci-fi goes. I enjoyed it a lot though.

I seem to recall an episode of Start Trek TNG where the super-race of immortals known as The Q ran into this same problem: Q Continuum - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

Maybe. In the movie Highlander, the main character is faced with the deaths of virtually everyone he knew during his normal lifespan and his memories of those he loved most were all he had left. He denied himself the opportunity to get too attached because he knew the same thing would just happen again, and again, and again.

I have no idea. I guess that depends on if that existence represents true immortality of not. I think that if it did, then there would be a lot less fear of the consequences of your actions.

I like that characterization: "OEM guy". I tend to empathize more with that than going into the so-called Kurzweilian singularity. But then again who knows. We recently checked out the movie Transcendence, which deals with what that might be like on a superficial level. Regarding the Christian version. I think I'd probably want to find the big Trinity and kick all three of them in the shins on general principle alone .

OK, but how do you actually feel?

 

[smcder]

Excellent idea for a thread, Steve. How about beginning with NDEs and what they suggest about survival of conciousness?

I'm not well versed in the NDE literature ... but I very am interested in both positive and negative NDEs as I understand both occur and some attention has been paid to negative or "hell-like" experiences ... what effect do they have? I'm also curious about how people are affected in terms of personality and also in terms of changes (or not) in beliefs - do some believers become disbelievers or change religious beliefs? an enormous area of human experience to discuss that has, as my post on Plato shows, always been around - but certainly appears to be more common now with modern medical intervention.

I look forward to the resources you bring to the discussion!

 

[Randall]

Do you have any records of the conversations that you could share?

I haven't kept records of my informal discussions. I was just sharing because I thought it might evoke some other commentary. Not everyone goes around asking people they interact with if they've seen UFOs or if they would like to be immortal. When I get the chance, I do.

My point about real people is I want to hear it from them, individually, not in aggregate ... their stories - your story. How do you feel about death? Right now and at 4am in the middle of the night when you've gotten a phone call with bad news? On your best day, your worst day? Have you ever wanted to die? Even for a moment?

Have I ever wanted to die? Even for a moment? When I was 21, I had been contemplating life and death and ultimately came to the conclusion that I had lived long enough, but I'm still here so obviously I didn't go through with any plans. Now days, my attitude can best be summed up by saying that if anyone finds me dead and it looks like suicide, it was absolutely a setup because I would push the immortality button in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. I never want to die.

Your question to me:

"What would your answer be if you were given the opportunity to become immortal?"

... lacks specificity.

Let's suppose that you simply had the opportunity to push a "Yes" button and that doing so meant that you would be granted immortality in the ideal human physical form for you, free of disease and defects, strong mature and operating optimally, and that you had to make your mind up then and there. Would you push the button?

 

[Constance]

Great idea for a thread.
My 2 cents:
I always knew I am not afraid of death. However, I could not know for sure until the day I was hit from behind on a bridge (Clearwater - Tampa) by a a drunk driver. While I was spinning and hoping not to fall of the bridge I had enough time to think that I did not want my kids to live a life without a mother, and that drowning is a bad way to go. Luckily I was able to drive from the accident scene. And with the feeling that death does not scare me. Suffering does.

I'm not afraid of death either, ufocurious. My own brush with it occurred when I was 21 as a car I was riding in skidded on ice and barreled toward a large tree. Funny thing is the way my sense of time slowed down radically as we approached that collision. I had a good view, from the front passenger seat. I thought during this approach, very dispassionately, that "we are going to hit that tree." No panic; very like the attitude of the second consciousess whose thoughts or voice I overheard during my spontaneous OBE four months later. And indeed during the OBE I was not alarmed, merely surprised (and intrigued) to find myself (my consciousness) up in the far corner of the room observing my body from behind. [note: it seemed inert, lifeless, out of time though it still sat at the desk across the room reading; 'I', near the ceiling across the room, did not feel connected to it] Similarly, my dispassionate thought on the race toward impact with the tree (in a period of time that seemed to be drawn out, to drag) seemed to occur in another part of my mind from my normal state, a different state of mind from my ordinary one. The radical slowing of time seemed to be a way of communicating with me, something like: 'Pay attention. This is important.'

Seven years ago I experienced the greatest possible loss for me, the death in a car accident of my then 21-year-old daughter, center of my life, keeper of my heart. The shock and grief at losing her presence here with me took several years to resolve, with help from a transpersonal psychologist in grief therapy but moreso from immersing myself in reading for three years the research in mediumship, NDEs, OBEs, reincarnation, and pastlife regression, and most of all because of the communications I received from my daughter, four of them vividly physical and a succession of less dramatic sensing of her presence at various times since then. I have no doubt remaining that our consciousnesses survive the death of the body. This evolving certainty has been a gift that is still giving, that enabled me to continue in living a positive and even joyful life here. I wish everyone who loses the presence here of a child or other deeply loved person could know what I know.

You are right, ufocurious, that what we have to fear is suffering here, our own and that of others. Our natural goal should be, and at our best often is, to relieve as much as possible of the suffering of all living beings here in this life.

If I can choose my death, I would like to go to sleep one day, and wake up in the other side the next.
I am 95% sure we survive in another dimension. I keep 5% to the chance of being wrong. But the option is nothingness, and that does not hurt.

Death in sleep is certainly to be preferred but, from what I have read in the different literatures I mentioned above, the transition out of the body is instantaneous and not at all frightening -- the dislocation of one's consciousness out of the body without pain or alarm but only a sense of the marvelousness of it -- and also a feeling of acceptance and perfect calm. This OBE is a key element of a majority of NDEs in which one's consciousness observes one's body from a position high in the room (sometimes not recognizing its own body at first), and in which one sees the people in the room, hears (and later remembers) what they've said, travels into the hallways and waiting room seeing and overhearing more, and eventually leaves the environment moving outward into the near environment or through a tunnel-like structure. Reading many NDE accounts confirms a marked similarity in the sights, sounds, and interactions that ensue and the changes that an NDE effects in those who have experienced one. Similar experiences have been recorded in human history. They occur frequently these days for some reason, no doubt partially because people can be revived/brought back more quickly with modern medicine, but possibly also because of an intervention from beings on the other side who seek to re-open the minds of the majority in our time that have been closed by the dead hand of materialist thinking trickled down from materialist science and philosophy. A similar phenomenon occurred in the age of extraordinary mediumship investigated by the SPR and similar researchers in other countries.

 

[smcder]

I haven't kept records of my informal discussions. I was just sharing because I thought it might evoke some other commentary. Not everyone goes around asking people they interact with if they've seen UFOs or if they would like to be immortal. When I get the chance, I do.

Have I ever wanted to die? Even for a moment? When I was 21, I had been contemplating life and death and ultimately came to the conclusion that I had lived long enough, but I'm still here so obviously I didn't go through with any plans. Now days, my attitude can best be summed up by saying that if anyone finds me dead and it looks like suicide, it was absolutely a setup because I would push the immortality button in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. I never want to die.

Let's suppose that you simply had the opportunity to push a "Yes" button and that doing so meant that you would be granted immortality in the ideal human physical form for you, free of disease and defects, strong mature and operating optimally, and that you had to make your mind up then and there. Would you push the button?

Good enough and thank you for sharing the personal story.

No, I would not.

I would need to know how it worked and at what cost to myself and others? By being granted immortality in the ideal physical form ... etc, do you mean I am also not only invincible but cannot be injured or damaged in any way? How about mentally? Emotionally? Eternal grief and anguish are possible? (by the way, I have never been in an ideal physical form, free of disease and defects, strong, mature and operating optimally - so I'm not sure I'd even be me) ... and if so, what if I later decided I wanted to die? Will I remember everything or still have a human memory?

 

[Randall]

Good enough and thank you for sharing the personal story.

No, I would not.

I would need to know how it worked and at what cost to myself and others? By being granted immortality in the ideal physical form ... etc, do you mean I am also not only invincible but cannot be injured or damaged in any way? How about mentally? Emotionally? Eternal grief and anguish are possible? (by the way, I have never been in an ideal physical form, free of disease and defects, strong, mature and operating optimally - so I'm not sure I'd even be me) ... and if so, what if I later decided I wanted to die? Will I remember everything or still have a human memory?

Calculating the cost to others is an impossible task. Equally impossible would be calculating the benefit to others. It would be something you'd be required to wrestle with as time wore on. Immortality implies the ability to heal completely from injury, returning to your ideal state. Mental and emotional issues would be things you would have to wrestle with over time, but the presumption is that your brain is defect free. I don't think an absence of physical defects would constitute changing you from who you are unless the defects you had to begin with were so extensive that repairing them would literally change you to a degree that nobody, including you, would recognize you as yourself anymore. Such changes would essentially constitute a whole rebirth, in which case, there would be no point in this as a mental exercise.

This brings up an interesting point with respect to the idea of continuity of consciousness and personal identity. Suppose we do float out of our bodies after they stop working. By what standard do we determine our identity? It seems to me that all that would be left, at least hypothetically is memories, and perhaps personality, although those qualities in an individual have been mapped to regions of the brain, so I'm not sure how we would retain personalities and memories after we float up out of where they are stored. For any of that to work we'd have to assume that we're not really here in the first place because the external world is an illusion.

 

[Constance]

. . .Would we need greatly enhanced memories or would we be content, if we had a choice, to let them go into the ages ... ? Could we decide which memories to keep by rehearsing them or keeping more meticulous records? Or would we just grow tired of them? What would happen to favorite foods and movies and other experiences ....? People become quite desperate in developed countries now for novel stimulation ....

Could greatly extended lives become more and more about memory?

Or, if we don't live on in the body ... if we live on in a discarnate form - how would we answer that question? What would one do in a discarnate form or other there other forms to take on the other side?

The impression I've gathered from reading in 4 of the 5 subject matters I named above [i.e., with exception of OBE research which concerns experiences taking place here] is that discarnate consciousnesses do not experience stasis or boredom or live in memory of the most recent embodied life. Individual development continues after a period of adjustment to living without a physical body and in the company of consciousnesses now transparent to one another (including those of discarnates known in the life just left, those with whom one has incarnated in the past, and also others previously unmet). Spiritual development continues, especially for those who go over in states of psychic distress, for the newly separated consciousness is still imbued with negative emotions or, worse, guilt for transgressions committed in the body. In the 'life review', one experiences everything again but including the recognition of the negative effects of one's words and actions on others. In a sense the environment is like a hospital (for those in need of healing of the spirit or soul) and like a school for those ready to participate in further learning and development. Not 'boring' at all. As challenging as one wishes to make it, in an atmosphere without conflict or pain. It seems that concern with the world one has immediately come from continues, and individuals sharing common interests and knowledge work together on the further development of their disciplines and also attempt to communicate what they've learned back to people still in the body. That discarnate SPR scholars and scientists did so is evidenced by the Cross Correspondence(s) and by what they themselves reported they were doing through mediums in various countries. Physicians, philosophers, scientists, and artists sometimes succeed in introducing new information and insights into the minds of their still-embodied peers. FWH Myers's major study Human Personality and the Survival of Consciousness includes many such cases of sudden and unsourceable inspiration, knowledge, and insight reported by the still-embodied individuals concerned. As they sing in the islands, 'don't worry, be happy'.

 

[Constance]

I'm not well versed in the NDE literature ... but I very am interested in both positive and negative NDEs as I understand both occur and some attention has been paid to negative or "hell-like" experiences ... what effect do they have? I'm also curious about how people are affected in terms of personality and also in terms of changes (or not) in beliefs - do some believers become disbelievers or change religious beliefs? an enormous area of human experience to discuss that has, as my post on Plato shows, always been around - but certainly appears to be more common now with modern medical intervention.

According to the NDE research, frightening ('hell-like') experiences occur for a small minority of people. We need to remember that consciousnesses undergoing NDEs are still characterized by presuppositions about life and death, so people might get what they expect to some extent, at least at first. Many persons formerly practicing a particular religion move away from it after NDEs, toward a less constrained or dogmatic kind of spirtuality. They seem to have learned that their former religion does not express the whole truth about reality and that they no longer identify with its beliefs. The dominant changes in persons who have experienced NDEs concern their general sense of values; many commit themselves to helping professions and organizations; many develop psychic abilities; they generally no longer fear death. Indeed, many of them recall resisting their return to the body, attempting to prevent resuscitation efforts, wishing to remain on the other side. A good many are willing to return because they have children who need them or others who depend on them.