A good read

[boomerang]

I'm just finishing up Col. John Alexander's "UFO's: Myths, Conspiracies and Realities".

I don't agree with all of Alexander's conclusions. But I found it to be an informative and thought provoking read.

 

[dyingsun]

Same here. People should read more in general. A good read.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Imo that book was very good. But maybe I'm biased since I've found it difficult to buy the government conspiracy angle for a long time. I mean, you look at all the ways the American government is incompetent and then consider that in order for the conspiracy to be true all of the governments of the world would have to be in on it and it just becomes a very big pill to swallow.

 

[Trajanus]

I don't agree with all of Alexander's conclusions. But I found it to be an informative and thought provoking read

I didn't read it but from what I've heard he points to Corso as evidence against a coverup. Come on, even Stan didn't buy him.

 

[Trajanus]

Imo that book was very good. But maybe I'm biased since I've found it difficult to buy the government conspiracy angle for a long time. I mean, you look at all the ways the American government is incompetent

Mostly elected officials not intelligence pros. They kept ULTRA secret not only during the war but for 30 years afterwards.

and then consider that in order for the conspiracy to be true all of the governments of the world would have to be in on it and it just becomes a very big pill to swallow.

Depends on how much incentive there is. Stan suggested disclosure would be inimical to the nation state--a pretty strong incentive for every government, if true...

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Mostly elected officials not intelligence pros. They kept ULTRA secret not only during the war but for 30 years afterwards.

We're not talking about a secret jet or code breaking device or whatever. The UFO phenomenon is global. It can't be bottled up by a single government. For there to be a cover-up all the nations of the world would have to be in on it.

 

[Trajanus]

The UFO phenomenon is global. It can't be bottled up by a single government. For there to be a cover-up all the nations of the world would have to be in on it.

First, UFOs may appear everywhere but not every nation has real proof; maybe just ours. And again, it could be that they all have a strong incentive to keep quiet about it.

 

[Ron Collins]

I thought the book was very good. I also don't buy that the government is capable of keeping a 60+ year secret with no discernible use of the technology making it into public view.

 

[Trajanus]

I thought the book was very good. I also don't buy that the government is capable of keeping a 60+ year secret with no discernible use of the technology making it into public view.

Depends on whether backengineering stories are true; maybe some has. Basically Alexander flies in the face of credible testimony regarding crashes; wouldn't be surprised if this were deliberate. Get somebody to write a book basically sympathetic to UFOlogy and the ETH but dismissive of a coverup. What a clever trick to help maintain secrecy--undermine the idea in the very camp of the enemy.

 

[Ron Collins]

Depends on whether backengineering stories are true; maybe some has. Basically Alexander flies in the face of credible testimony regarding crashes; wouldn't be surprised if this were deliberate. Get somebody to write a book basically sympathetic to UFOlogy and the ETH but dismissive of a coverup. What a clever trick to help maintain secrecy--undermine the idea in the very camp of the enemy.

So your suggesting that Alexander is a disinformation agent? What in the world would that do? This subject matter is not making any real headway with mainstream media and probably will not for the foreseeable future. The UFO field does more to discredit itself than any disinformation agent ever could. I personally dont believe that the U.S government spends a single second worrying about how this subject matter is seen within any camp.
I think Alexander is just a man telling the story from as he perceived it. Does this mean that there absolutely no government program that studies these objects and has more detailed information? No, it does not. But it is one more piece to a puzzle that paints a pretty bleak picture if you are banking on "Disclosure" to happen anytime soon.

 

[boomerang]

I think Alexander is just a man telling the story from as he perceived it.

I have to almost grudgingly agree. Although I think Alexander never quite accounts for the question of where select trace evidence really goes.

 

[Trajanus]

So your suggesting that Alexander is a disinformation agent?

Wouldn't be surprising.

What in the world would that do? This subject matter is not making any real headway with mainstream media and probably will not for the foreseeable future.

In fact it has. The idea of crashes and coverups has made considerable strides in the past 20-25 years.

The UFO field does more to discredit itself than any disinformation agent ever could.

In fact the books of KDR, Friedman and others are generally considered credible and have been widely read. Unless all that is countered--and it can't be countered with proof of an alternative, mundane explanation-- there is a real danger the public will think the government has real saucers and alien bodies. Considering what might happen if pressure accumulated for disclosure, the government doesn't think it's sufficient to simply deny everything. To prevent people from concluding that the coverup, hence ET, is real, it puts out disinfo, both irresponsible stuff (to make the whole field look silly) and more sober stuff which basically appeals to believers yet douses cold water on the idea of coverup.

I personally dont believe that the U.S government spends a single second worrying about how this subject matter is seen within any camp.

Assuming there is something very profound to be kept secret, something that might turn everything upside down if it were known, the government would care a great deal and do what it must to prevent too many people from demanding to know exactly what it is.

But it is one more piece to a puzzle that paints a pretty bleak picture if you are banking on "Disclosure" to happen anytime soon.

Oh, there's no way I'm banking on it soon; the thoroughness of government obscurantism, even after 65 years, indicates we're nowhere near that stage.

 

[tyder001]

Hi Trajanus, haven't seen you posting as much lately. Or maybe I'm spending way to much time here. This statement you made I don't understand at all. So, I'll ask you.

"The idea of crashes and coverups has made considerable strides in the past 20-25 years." (quotations mine)

Now I don't know how you come to this. The media is very snarky when they report rumors of crashes or even the sigthing of ufo's. So, I don't see the considerable strides that you mention here.

 

[Trajanus]

Hi Trajanus, haven't seen you posting as much lately. Or maybe I'm spending way to much time here.

The first is correct. So many boards, so little time.

Now I don't know how you come to this. The media is very snarky when they report rumors of crashes or even the sigthing of ufo's. So, I don't see the considerable strides that you mention here.

I think the field has gained in respectability. Around 35-40 years ago, crash reports only appeared in the tabloids--if they appeared at all. Old books by Scully had been dismissed long before, and few if any people took that aspect of the field seriously. In more recent years, there have been a number of well-researched and reasoned books favoring an ET crash or crashes. It's been my impression that the media, while hardly rooting for ET explanations, lately has seemed to respect the views of the UFOlogists.

 

[tyder001]

OK, I can see that. I actually came across an old book by that author the other day but passed it by. I thought it might be more Adamski type stuff. Is it worth a look?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I don't think the secret is actually hard to keep. Reason being is that the successful way in which the public and media have been made to view the UFO topic has made it so that people don't believe there is anything being covered up in the first place.
Many people actually involved won't even know they are part of a cover up because they will ostensibly be protecting something else. I think the actual numbers 'in the know in full' so to speak are probably quite low.
Was there not about 2500 (or 25000) directly or indirectly involved in the Manhattan project? No-one got a whiff of that.

I was in military intelligence with top secret codeword clearance (SCI) and I know for a fact secrets are kept for long periods of time. There aren't really that many people trying to actively 'out' the UFO secret and their access to documents and people who would know is virtually nil. As I said, most people in government and the military don't even think there is anything to cover up in the first place, which makes it far, far easier for those few in the know to keep the secret. I have no doubt for information classified as highly as this, threats to lives would be implied if not completely outright in the open for those 'read in' to such info.

Despite my stance on the reality of a UFO cover-up and the long-kept secret, I am also at the same time in the camp that thinks there is probably a lot less to cover up than people think. I think there is no doubt at all that some group or other knows more than us but is far short of having an all-encompassing understanding of the whole phenomena. Most of us realise these days that the whole UFO enigma is way more complicated than might appear on the surface. I would doubt that any group has a real handle on all the different facets of the field.

 

[boomerang]

I think the field has gained in respectability. Around 35-40 years ago, crash reports only appeared in the tabloids--if they appeared at all.

Over the last 40 years, I have sensed a substantial increase in acceptance and possibly a slight increase in respectability. I also, sadly, sense a decrease in public enthusiasm in hopes of finding rational solutions. Just my take.

 

[Trajanus]

OK, I can see that. I actually came across an old book by that author the other day but passed it by. I thought it might be more Adamski type stuff. Is it worth a look?

You'd do better to read the more recent works, like KDR's one on crashes.

 

[Trajanus]

I don't think the secret is actually hard to keep. Reason being is that the successful way in which the public and media have been made to view the UFO topic has made it so that people don't believe there is anything being covered up in the first place.

One key difference between this UFO business and other types of secrets is its enormous general interest. Another is that a number of civilians saw what was hauled away before the coverup. Since Stringfield's work became publicized about 35 years ago, and especially since KDR's and Friedman's books came out, and programs on Roswell appeared on TV, quite a number of people have concluded there is a coverup. But there's not enough evidence--or rather, there's too much uncertainty, deliberately contrived IMO--to generate real pressure for disclosure. Thanks to people like Alexander, that is.

Despite my stance on the reality of a UFO cover-up and the long-kept secret, I am also at the same time in the camp that thinks there is probably a lot less to cover up than people think. I think there is no doubt at all that some group or other knows more than us but is far short of having an all-encompassing understanding of the whole phenomena.

IMO the government knows what the phenomenon represents, and maybe also where it's from, but is largely in the dark about other things like ultimate intentions and motives.

Most of us realise these days that the whole UFO enigma is way more complicated than might appear on the surface. I would doubt that any group has a real handle on all the different facets of the field.

Sure, high strangeness makes it hard to reach a definitive conclusion as to the exact nature of the enigma. But I think advanced technology--coupled with an alien desire to deceive us-- can explain HS without a need to invoke "fairies" or anything of that nature. But the point is, while neither the public nor the government is likely to have all the answers, the government (IMO) at least knows what we're dealing with.