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A Question of Dying

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TClaeys

Skilled Investigator
With the diverse opinions people have here I thought I'd ask this question. First though, if humans were ever presented a dying sick animal the most humane thing they could do would be to put it out of it's misery. This is almost always the case. If the animal is determined to be critically injured, suffering, and to die despite any attempts to cure, we would look at euthanasia to be perfectly fine and satisfactory way to deal with this animal. Unless the animal happens to be a human.

An older family member of mine is dying. He is 90 years old, congestive heart failure, kidney problems, and all sorts of unspeakable maladies. His body is shutting down and he is suffering day to day. It is unknown how long he should live but it won't be long. Now I'm sure you can sense the question I'm about to ask.

Is there some element of the human condition that requires us to suffer until death actually takes us?? He has a DNR which will probably be his undoing. But recently he has had emergency surgery for a kidney malfunction among other things. The physical breakdown of a dying person is devastating. Everyday I know that he wishes he would not have woke. While he is a relative by marriage, he is a wonderful person. He has lived a full life now to physically and mentally collapse in a dying heap as the days progress. It is quite sad on many fronts.

So we know if it were any other animal it would be euthanized. I've never been through something like this before so I've never really thought about the issue much. But ,.... I don't know, what are your feelings about this?? Should we be able to end the suffering?? Why are we determined and required to fight death to the very end?? Why?? It just seems so forcefully unjustified and . ... what. . .. wrong?
 
The DNR says his wishes well enough. It's a slippery slope, though. I'll just tell you an experience I had, FWIW. My mother had some sort of seizure and was left unconscious and in the hospital in 1989. She had a DNR. The regained consciousness, but was on a respirator, oxygen, IVs, the whole bit. She was 75 at the time. She spelled out with her finger in my father's palm, "Now is the time for the living will." meaning she wanted to be taken off life support.

But it's not that simple. She had a chance to recover, so it wasn't as if 'nothing could be done.' She actually did recover and lived, I think, another six months or so before she died in her sleep at home.

The thing I worry most about is that we'll turn a 'right' to decide the time of your own demise into an 'obligation' to terminate your life because you are such a burden on others. That scares me a lot.
 
I personally agree - an individual who is suffering with a likely terminal condition should have the right to die with dignity, on their own terms, after a balanced assessment of the individual's condition. Western cultures tend to cling to 'life' even in extreme situations. Obviously every situation is unique and the judgment of the doctors, loved ones and the individual needs to be brought to bear. At the heart of the matter, however, compassion often dictates an end to suffering, and every individual should be empowered to make decisions about his or her own life once due consideration is given.

Despite being an American who was raised a Catholic, I firmly believe in reincarnation, ergo my views above. You always have a chance to come back and do it again if you so choose! (not to say I would want to . . . . )

Best wishes to you and your family.
 
OK. I have one objection which is religious and therefore irrelevant to anyone but myself, but another I have is that there is a slippery slope from someone's clearly expressed wishes (which it may not be possible to verify against their current wishes, although that cuts both ways) to various individuals or bodies with responsibility over others deciding it is In Their Best Interests, And What I'm Sure They'd Want If We Could Ask Them, and then it's downhill from there. Once the killing starts it becomes easier and easier to justify (and yes, I am opposed to capital punishment as well, so at least I'm consistent). I would also make a sharp distinction between medical staff discontinuing treatment and actively taking steps to end a life: in the latter case you are putting a terrible burden on someone by asking them to become a killer, even with consent.
That said, I think (and I don't think it's a "Western" thing: Western civilisation is used a lot as a whipping boy these days, when it's actually rather good...I'm really tired of Hippie bullshit) there's a tendency now to focus on saving lives at all costs with too little attention paid to whether the life you are going to extraordinary lengths to save is one that the person would want, or whether we are condemning them to years of living hell. The problem is that medical technology has advanced to a point that our instincts and ethics don't know how to handle - in so many cases now it is possible for a person to survive terrible injury, but not in any real sense recover. Hence a dilemma that previously was much less common.
 
I think it's quite sad that you're going through all of this.

My grandfather lived a full life and decided after he turned 90, that it was time for him to die. So he sat in his lazyboy and willed his body to die. 2 or 3 days later it worked. No more suffering from his various maladies. I don't know anyone else that this would have worked for, as he was the strongest willed individual I've ever known.

In direct response to the OP, I think it's part selfishness that we keep people alive past any real quality of life. We humans seem to cherish life for life's sake. We hold tenuously to those tendrils, probably because we don't know what's on the other side. Then we project our feelings into practice, into general procedure and then into law.

It's scary though, as Schuyler suggests, that option could become obligation and through obligation become mandate, if we follow a logical chain of events, for assisted suicide.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry that you and your family is going through this at this time of year.
 
TClaeys has anyone given your loved one permission to go? sometimes that is all they are waiting for. i experienced this with my mother and her 2 sisters who all died within 3 years of each other.
 
I think hospice has provided a way of dying with dignity and the assurance one will go sooner in some cases. When the pain is too difficult to bear, the increased issuance of morphine may push the time limit. I don't know that to be true, but I suspect it in a relative's case and had a very different experience in another relative's case where there was no pain involved.

But I remember my grandmother telling us she'd spoken with Jesus and he wasn't quite ready for her yet. She'd held out for her grandchildren getting to her, remained fairly cogent until we left and entered a short coma before going for good.

That suggests to me there is some sort of choice and will in the timing too. And that's why I get a bit nervous about our wanting our loved ones to go quickly in order that they don't suffer. Sure, we don't want them suffering, but are our wishes their wishes too? Seems too many linger for long periods and I can't say it isn't a choice on their part, regardless the pain, a choice we can't always understand.
 
pixelsmith said:
TClaeys has anyone given your loved one permission to go? sometimes that is all they are waiting for. i experienced this with my mother and her 2 sisters who all died within 3 years of each other.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting question. I haven't. But I'm sort of withdrawn a bit because I feel in a way that it is a direct family issue. I don't know what to say or do. It is a new experience for me. My father died years ago, but it was sudden and completely unexpected, and a completely different aftermath.

I was talking with my wife wondering what he thought would happen after he died. Does he think he will join his deceased wife in heaven?? He is a Christian and I believe this is probably the case. But still, being confronted with the end of his life, I respectfully refrain from asking such questions although I'm sure he is thinking about this very thing (sort of an oxymoron I guess). It seems that death brings along curious behaviors from the surrounding family. I don't know to what depth the conversations have gone this direction.

I can see the complications in the euthansia issue now. Choice vs Obligation turning down a very dark road. Still, if it were his choice, of which he is still of sound mind (although my guess would be not for long), he would choose to pass. I don't know for a fact he would let a doctor do it or not. He has remarked many times that he doesn't know why he is still alive in a way that let's you know he is ready. But it is painful in many ways to see this play out.

Maybe he just does need permission to let go. Death is such a strange thing. Thanks for the thoughts everyone.
 
i gave my first aunt permission to die and she died the next day. i gave my second aunt permission to die and she died that evening. i gave my mother permission to die and she died a few hours later holding my hand.
i wonder if they think there might be some chance of coming though it all until someone says it is ok to die. that might indicate to them that there is nothing more to do for them.

by saying i gave "permission", all i said to all of them was, "Its ok, you can leave now. we all love you!"
 
My mom hung on, even though she was well past any point of coming back... I held her hand and said it was okay to go, we would miss her and we loved her. Seconds later, she calmed completely and instantaneously and was gone.

So, sometimes the best we can do for someone is to let them know it is all right to leave us. I think they can hang on because they are more afraid for us, and how we will feel when they go, than fear for themselves. At that point, I think fear for themselves is much less than their concern for those they leave behind.

I hope the situation is soon resolved in your relative's best interest, whatever that proves to be.
 
AnnetteMarie said:
My mom hung on, even though she was well past any point of coming back... I held her hand and said it was okay to go, we would miss her and we loved her. Seconds later, she calmed completely and instantaneously and was gone.

So, sometimes the best we can do for someone is to let them know it is all right to leave us. I think they can hang on because they are more afraid for us, and how we will feel when they go, than fear for themselves. At that point, I think fear for themselves is much less than their concern for those they leave behind.

I hope the situation is soon resolved in your relative's best interest, whatever that proves to be.
Click to expand...

i think AnnetteMarie nailed it, one of the very last things my mom said to me was, "The only reason I am still here, is because of you." she didnt want me to be sad at her passing.
 
My thoughts are with you and anyone going through this. Hubby and I are experiencing this (and have been with more intensity for past three months). Our loved one is slowly dying of advanced COPD/Emphysema (from Smoking) and 2 of the three heart arteries are blocked.

During the first trip to the hospital, we elected to put a DNR on her as we thought that's what she would want. Also DNR during the 2nd trip. Now she is home and she has removed the DNR and is on Hospice care (as well as us being her main Caregivers). People want to experience their life and their death, their way. And tho it maybe painful, inconvenient for those around them, I believe it's important to be there as they go thru everything.

But we wished we'd've spoken to her in more detail about all this, she wasn't upset at us for the DNR decision one bit, but she has no Living Will (still doesn't) and never wants to talk about any of it.

So we are just there for her. The dr's say she has six months (maybe less maybe more he's seen people go either way). But for now, we're just enjoying her as much as we can, ya know? And that's what's important. Enjoying and appreciating your loved ones while they're in your life.

PM me anytime you wish to talk, I'm here!

Hugs,

Bixyboo
 
People are euthanized all the time. They just don't talk about it.

It's a VERY common practice among those suffering from painful cancers and other diseases. They give them enough painkillers to cause them to stop breathing.

My mother died of cancer. One day they took the safety's off the morphine drip, and while my brother and I were at work, she died. The family put her out of her misery.

The thing is, people do this with great regularity, and yet we all talk about it like some how God is going to punish us all for ending the suffering of someone who is supposedly one of God's children. Should anyone believe that a benevolent, all knowing, loving God is going to allow someone to suffer needlessly when they are absolutely going to die?

I assure you all. When my time comes, I'm not going out that way. I'm going out in a blaze of glory. I'm going out in a hail of bullets. Just like my pet goldfish did.
 
Tommy and Bixy- Thanks for the comments, for some reason there is no thanks button showing up (maybe I used too many during this post).

Right now he is in his bed, not able to even get up. Laying there rotting away, suffering. Yesterday his daughter(my mother in law) asked if he wanted anything. He said he wanted the 'angel of death' to come for him. And as of now he is still lucid which is even more of a shame, like he is trapped in this body until it happens.

And I agree w/ Tommy. Are we to be punished for doing the only good thing you could possibly do?? There is no coming out of this thing for him. I would venture it may be a matter of days now. Why we have to let him suffer the last moments of his life is as cruel as anything I can imagine.

I do not wish to live like that to the end. It is unneccesary on many fronts. I don't believe in a god that would have it mandatory to needlessly endure the inevitable. And to feel and see the physical wrecking is more than any being should be subjected to.

My thoughts are a bit jumbled right now as the stress of the situation is permeating throughout everyone in the family. It seems funny, but I'm actually thankful to be able to ask these questions and get some real feedback of all places a paranormal forum. A lot of the things I ask I don't talk about w/anyone. But this virtual world and it's members has actually given me a lot of food for thought. thanks-
 
Thanks for the update, TC. I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm sure it is also some relief to know he's no longer suffering, either. *comforting hugs* to you and yours.

Bixyboo
 
Don't grieve for those who die with courage. Anyone who asks the angel of death to take them, does not fear the great beyond. His life should be celebrated and you should be proud.

Most people cling to this world, as if it is some kind of security blanket. There are many things in the universe that the physical body can comprehend, but what comes after is the remarkable part of our existence.

I am sorry for your loss, but happy you had someone so courageous near and dear to you. You are blessed. Never forget that.

To you and your family, my sincere condolences.
 
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