catch up interview

[Bob Watson]

Just listened to the show AWESOME interview! was impressed by Dons candor and willingness to call a fraud a fraud! his answers was clear and to the point. I was VERY impressed by his critical view of DR Hynick. Great job folks!
On the road and on the run!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Don's comments about Hynek raise a common issue, that of the courage to speak up versus the consequences. Consider that a college professor is not a rich person, and that Hynek had a family to support. Consider the consequences of stepping on the wrong toes, but he really did go pretty far once he decided to make his move.

 

[wwkirk]

Engaging interview. It was good to hear that he holds Chris in high esteem.

 

[Randall]

Don's comments about Hynek raise a common issue, that of the courage to speak up versus the consequences. Consider that a college professor is not a rich person, and that Hynek had a family to support. Consider the consequences of stepping on the wrong toes, but he really did go pretty far once he decided to make his move.

Don is correct that Hynek knew he was being handled. However he was also under an Air Force contract that obligated him under threat of serious consequences not to disclose anything the Air Force told him he couldn't disclose. Don was in the military right? Would he have basically disobeyed orders over a non-life threatening issue like this? What if Hynek had spilled the beans and caused some kind of panic? Despite these considerations, the swamp gas incident was the tipping point for Hynek, after which he refused to participate in any further smoke screens. Personally, if it were me, I'd have damned the torpedoes and gone along with the charade until I got behind the microphone. But that's just me, and although Don does have a legitimate point, since finding out about what went on behind the scenes with the Air Force, I don't hold Hynek's decision against him the way I once did. The main problem was ( and still is ) non-disclosure by the USAF and other BTB.

 

[Randall]

Just a note here that Timothy Good's book Above Top Secret didn't "prominently feature" the fake USAF pilot. It's actually a very small section in relation to the book as a whole, and Good appears to have caught the issue and removed the reference in his completely revised and updated version Beyond Top Secret, which in IMO is still far superior to most of the other post classic works Don mentioned.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I like the show and Don was his usual no-nonsense self. The way he reacted to the question about publishing another UFO magazine was hilarious. I liked the fact the shenanigans with the Skinwalker episode of Conspiracy theory was brought up and shamed by both Chris and Don.

I really have to check out this 'Clear Intent' book, about which I've heard only good things.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Don mentioned 'Penetration' by Ingo Swann in PDF format. Here is a link for it:

Penetration: The Question of Extraterrestrial and Human Telepathy : Ingo Swann : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Burnt State]

Read this book with a jar of salt nearby as there are some sequences that read more like fantasy fiction and swamp gas than anything that could have possibly happened in real life.

The alien 'bombshell' in the grocery store with the special agent beefcake twins feels like inspiration for the MIB movie series.

 

[ondafritz]

Don is always a great listen. I have to chuckle a bit over the fact that I am listening to the current publishers of UFO mags radio show. The guest I am listening to, Bryce Zabel, is a great listen no matter what show he is appearing on.

 

[Burnt State]

This show dealt primarily with the fraudsters in the field, as Gene's newsletter also reiterates and it opens up the recurring Ufological dilemma - who takes it seriously & where's the proof? Why do even big names in the field sign off on helium balloons, marketing schemes and other hoaxed events as credible evidence? It seems that there is no real science to the discussion, at least not anymore. In the age of doubt, duplicity and amoral consumerism, ufology has lost all its glamour, is populated with few engaging new voices, and all we have left to tell are old stories, old grudges and old beefs.

This, unfortunately is a repeated event, with lots of wheel spinning, but no traction. I have to confess, that i've become more engaged by the personalities in the field and their motivations as there is little by way of new ideas or creative, valuable analysis of all the data. We now live in very cynical times and little in the field resonates wth important truths, so even when we get a new idea, it is lost in a sea of paranormal podcasts marketing books, egos, prophets, and tales of Romanek abductions.

If a new bold voices does not step up to provide new insights that leap forward into the issue then it doesn't matter how many sleepy eyed senators are paid to listen, the field will simply dissolve like so many aging, national UFO groups, with only bad TV and cults of personality left in its wake. Young people and scientists do not appear to be critically interested in the field. This episode reminded me that we are not moving forward at all except for the highly rational and pragmatic advice both Don and Chris had to give to those who feel they are the subject of abductions. Maybe, if that beast could be slain, something new could rise up out of its hypnosis inspired ashes?!

 

[Randall]

This show dealt primarily with the fraudsters in the field, as Gene's newsletter also reiterates and it opens up the recurring Ufological dilemma - who takes it seriously & where's the proof ... Young people and scientists do not appear to be critically interested in the field ... Maybe, if that beast could be slain, something new could rise up out of its hypnosis inspired ashes?!

Young people will always be interested in alien visitation the same way they're endlessly interested in dinosaurs and ghost stories. The problem is that as they grow up, people either tell them that UFOs are nonsense or they run into some misleading facet of the field that leads them to draw the same conclusion for themselves. It also doesn't help to have anti-ufology skeptics doing school outreach programs who pass along even more misinformation. But not to lose sight of the point.

For young people and those new to the field, UFOs are as fascinating as they've ever been, and it's our responsibility as custodians and purveyors of the information to preserve and pass it along to future generations, not kill it off in hopes that it will somehow miraculously self-repair. In the bigger picture, whether or not any disclosure or material evidence ever surfaces is beside the point. Many of us alive today know the truth about alien visitation because of the intelligent analysis of our own keen and unimpaired senses.

So what happens if these craft simply pack up and leave and nobody preserves the legacy? For all we know, we may the last generation to experience the reality firsthand. If 100 years goes by without a single sighting, is it less profound to know Earth had once been visited by aliens? I don't think so. I think it makes it even more important not to forget. Otherwise we'll end up with a future in which parents teach their children that alien visitation is all just a bunch of superstition and mythology.

Trust me, I understand how after many years in the field, some days it's easy to be cynical. That's when we need to remind ourselves of how truly significant this issue is, at least to those who care to know whether or not we're alone in the universe.

 

[Burnt State]

So what happens if these craft simply pack up and leave and nobody preserves the legacy? For all we know, we may the last generation to experience the reality firsthand. If 100 years goes by without a single sighting, is it less profound to know Earth had once been visited by aliens? I don't think so. I think it makes it even more important not to forget. Otherwise we'll end up with a future in which parents teach their children that alien visitation is all just a bunch of superstition and mythology.

Trust me, I understand how after many years in the field, some days it's easy to be cynical. That's when we need to remind ourselves of how truly significant this issue is, at least to those who care to know whether or not we're alone in the universe.

You're right about young people being interested in mysteries, but I teach my kids to be fairly critical and mostly cynical about what they read depending on the source. I'm not quite too sure about what's popping in and out of our skies, probably ET, but I think we need a better methodology to study this event. While we've catolgued and collected, we haven't made much progress or put much serious science to it.

I relistened to an older Paracast episode with Don Ecker and Biedny as co-host where much of the same material and tone was explored, but with a bigger focus on Lazar. At one point Ecker made a remark regarding the importance for the UFO community to clean its own house but he discovered that it didn't want to have itself cleaned. The same applies today, and I think he clearly identifies the core problem - too much fanciful and profit making ventures mixed in with an increasingly diminished collection of critical, scientifc thinkers and investigators.

 

[Randall]

While we've catolgued and collected, we haven't made much progress or put much serious science to it.

You seem to be framing "progress" in terms of sufficient scientifically valid evidence to prove alien craft (UFOs) are real, rather than seeing progress as the acquisition of sufficient evidence ( scientific or otherwise ) that proves alien craft (UFOs) are real. The point being that science isn't the only method that can help us determine what is or isn't reasonable to believe. You've heard me mention the process of critical thinking. This process is understood and adopted by science, but isn't limited to the scientific method alone. It's also not ( as some skeptics might claim ) a weakened or compromised set of standards. It's strength is in allowing all forms of evidence to be considered and weighed rather than only empirical evidence. Consequently, understanding why it's just as valuable ( or more so ) than the scientific method alone takes more work. But based on critical thinking, the sum of all evidence for the reality of alien craft is sufficient to conclude that they are real. Any unbiased person who takes the time to study the field long enough cannot help but come to the this conclusion.

 

[Fcseven]

Would be interested in links to the european papers where he gets news. I also find a severe lack of serious news here in the USA. Journalists here should be ashamed.

 

[Burnt State]

You seem to be framing "progress" in terms of sufficient scientifically valid evidence to prove alien craft (UFOs) are real, rather than seeing progress as the acquisition of sufficient evidence ( scientific or otherwise ) that proves alien craft (UFOs) are real.

No, I'm much more interested in seeing rigorous consistent science applied to the phenomenon to not only help legitimize the field but to help move us forward in understanding the fullness of what has been buzzing in and out of our skies for many a generation. Vallee claims not to be a theorist, just someone looking to test different hypotheses. What's required IMHO are more James E. MacDonald's with real support investigating events openly in the public forum of science so other scientists can participate in studying the phenomenon to bring more shape to what is filled with mostly foggy notions. Critical thinking is what the masses can do to varying degrees but they'll only get as far as arguing about the usual cabal: ETH, military experiments, ultra-terrestrials etc.. I'm looking for more in depth answers that have provable facts associated with YFO's that is about more than just observation or speculation and that can provide some legitimization of the field as a whole.

 

[Randall]

No, I'm much more interested in seeing rigorous consistent science applied to the phenomenon to not only help legitimize the field but to help move us forward in understanding the fullness of what has been buzzing in and out of our skies for many a generation.

OK then let me rephrase. You seem to be framing progress in terms of science only, and like I said before, science isn't the only way to determine what is reasonable to believe. This isn't to say that I'm anti-science. I'm all for science being applied within the field where and when it can properly be done. The problem is that the field doesn't lend itself well to the scientific method, and this has left the field open to accusations of pseudoscience. Because of this situation it's better to leave the science to the scientists and ufology to the ufologists, and to work in cooperation, but at arms length from scientists to assure unbiased results.

Vallee claims not to be a theorist, just someone looking to test different hypotheses. What's required IMHO are more James E. MacDonald's with real support investigating events openly in the public forum of science so other scientists can participate in studying the phenomenon to bring more shape to what is filled with mostly foggy notions. Critical thinking is what the masses can do to varying degrees but they'll only get as far as arguing about the usual cabal: ETH, military experiments, ultra-terrestrials etc.. I'm looking for more in depth answers that have provable facts associated with YFO's that is about more than just observation or speculation and that can provide some legitimization of the field as a whole.

The masses can also do science to varying degrees. So what? Does that make it less valid? The point is that your focus is on what constitutes proof. However proof isn't limited to scientific evidence alone. Proof is only evidence that is sufficient to make it reasonable to believe something is true, and critical thinking can furnish that as well or better than the scientific method alone, mainly because critical thinking doesn't preclude the scientific method, and therefore it makes use of all evidence available, and not simply that which is limited to the scientific method.

 

[Burnt State]

It's not about proving things or belief as those appear to be interchangeable for many people, depending on how extravagant are their beliefs. Say we prove/have proven that UFO's are ET, then what? What I'm interested in are not questions of belief so much as more specifc knowledge, an ability to interact or communicate with the phenomenon and progress from there. We're still at odds talking about what people believe about these objects, forget trying to exchange anything with them.

If the history of UFO awareness and knowledge could be parallaled with Spielberg's CE of the Third Kind oeuvre, then we still haven't got past the part in the movie where the dead animals are all over the fields to scare the populous. As for building mountain sculptures in your rec room out of mud, mashed potatoes and lawn chairs, I've got a neighbour that does that every other Sunday.

 

[Randall]

It's not about proving things or belief as those appear to be interchangeable for many people, depending on how extravagant are their beliefs. Say we prove/have proven that UFO's are ET, then what? What I'm interested in are not questions of belief so much as more specifc knowledge, an ability to interact or communicate with the phenomenon and progress from there. We're still at odds talking about what people believe about these objects, forget trying to exchange anything with them.

That would be a real step forward ... for sure.

If the history of UFO awareness and knowledge could be parallaled with Spielberg's CE of the Third Kind oeuvre, then we still haven't got past the part in the movie where the dead animals are all over the fields to scare the populous ...

I think we've gotten all the way through the parts where UFOs are seen by everyday people, chased by police cars, seen by pilots, and investigated by the military. Has some secret government program actually made contact with them? That's another story.

 

[Burnt State]

All those parts already happened leading up to the dead animals as they are heading to devil's mountain. We don't have a Devil's Mountain but a UFO celebration in Roswell each year instead.

 

[Randall]

All those parts already happened leading up to the dead animals as they are heading to devil's mountain. We don't have a Devil's Mountain but a UFO celebration in Roswell each year instead.

Right, of course ... for some reason I thought you were referring to some small detail I had missed at the beginning of the movie, like when they discovered Flight 19.