Debunking Jacques Vallee

[BoyintheMachine]

I found this information about a year ago and have been meaning to post it but something always seemed to come up.

While researching demons of various cultures I came across the following link. As readers may know, one of the classic myths that Jacques Vallee likes to tell and which became a popular subject and title of one of his books, is the myth of Magonia. Vallee presents this as a tale of potential extraterrestrials due to inclusions of air ships and lands in the sky. In reality it's a case of a man looking back at a past mythological tale and projecting his modern day concepts of aliens and extraterrestrials onto it. For you see, the Magonians are not extraterrestrials. They are demons.

The Magonians began as a Celtic fertility spirits, similar to incubi, called Dusios. With the coming of Christianity they were equated with demons and as such were placed in the sky as the sky is the dwelling place of demons, reference Satan as the prince of the powers of air. In the middle ages they began to be called Magonians and the part of the sky they dwelled in was called Magonia. After being identified as demons their behavior evolved to become more demonic, as in they were said to raid farms and steal or ruin crops. Since they dwelled in the sky some stories evolved to them having ships by which they traveled. However, no one saw these ships and it was just assumed that they existed. The classic story that Vallee relates of how peasants mistook people for being Magonians may be a simple case of these people trying to steal crops and were thus mistaken to be these demons.


Dusios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Magonia (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Goggs Mackay]

While not an explanation I myself place very highly, the 'Demonic' origin of UFOs is actually a theory that can 'explain' quite a lot in terms of the physics-defying capabilities of UFOs, the never-ending multitudes of physical forms of the craft inhabitants and the very often similar, but different shapes/structures of the reported craft.
It is a huge problem of the ETH that there seem to be so many different types of UFO and UFO occupants, not to mention their reported actions/motives! To many of us, even such an explanation as multiple ET races and multiple ET origins isn't quite enough to explain the often downright bizarre creatures and craft reported.

If we put the religious aspect of demons to one side, and just see demons as a kind of quasi-physical entity that is super-intelligent but morally indifferent to humanity, it almost makes more sense than the multiple ET race idea. I don't know if I believe in demons per se but taking into account entities such as the Jinn and others from numerous cultures over human history, there seems to be a common thread of supernatural beings with amazing powers that sometimes appear in various guises with various motives. If in the past these entities travelled on say, a flying horse or chariot, it's not much of a leap to think as man gets more technological, they start to utilise airships, rockets and classic UFO saucers and flying triangles, amongst other weird and wonderful shapes.

I've often said that if you consider all the myriad reported distinct paranormal events and creatures, it makes more sense that there would be one force behind it all, in different guises, rather than many totally distinct origins for different paranormal entities. So while I dismiss the premise of 'demons' in the Christian sense, I do not out of hand dismiss the idea of another very old intelligence operating on this Earth. I haven't yet read Vallee's 'Passport to Magonia' but it is most definitely on my reading to-do list.

 

[BoyintheMachine]

While not an explanation I myself place very highly, the 'Demonic' origin of UFOs is actually a theory that can 'explain' quite a lot in terms of the physics-defying capabilities of UFOs, the never-ending multitudes of physical forms of the craft inhabitants and the very often similar, but different shapes/structures of the reported craft.
It is a huge problem of the ETH that there seem to be so many different types of UFO and UFO occupants, not to mention their reported actions/motives! To many of us, even such an explanation as multiple ET races and multiple ET origins isn't quite enough to explain the often downright bizarre creatures and craft reported.

If we put the religious aspect of demons to one side, and just see demons as a kind of quasi-physical entity that is super-intelligent but morally indifferent to humanity, it almost makes more sense than the multiple ET race idea. I don't know if I believe in demons per se but taking into account entities such as the Jinn and others from numerous cultures over human history, there seems to be a common thread of supernatural beings with amazing powers that sometimes appear in various guises with various motives. If in the past these entities travelled on say, a flying horse or chariot, it's not much of a leap to think as man gets more technological, they start to utilise airships, rockets and classic UFO saucers and flying triangles, amongst other weird and wonderful shapes.

I've often said that if you consider all the myriad reported distinct paranormal events and creatures, it makes more sense that there would be one force behind it all, in different guises, rather than many totally distinct origins for different paranormal entities. So while I dismiss the premise of 'demons' in the Christian sense, I do not out of hand dismiss the idea of another very old intelligence operating on this Earth. I haven't yet read Vallee's 'Passport to Magonia' but it is most definitely on my reading to-do list.

You completely misunderstood this information. Vallee believes the Magonia tale to be of extraterrestrials because he is ignorant of the evolution of the Magonians. They started out as earth bound fertility spirits who were only later set into the sky because of Christianity. The Magonia myth has absolutely nothing to do with extraterrestrials. Vallee only viewed it as such because he was trying to push his agenda. He was successful and ultimately helped science to stay clear of Ufology.

As far as ETs being demons, I would say there's about a zero percent chance of such being true.

Jacques Vallee as well as others, such as John Keel, has really deceived, if unintentionally, a lot of people to follow his line of thought about aliens. However, as I've pointed out, Vallee's line of thought and information is wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, it's "nuts and bolts" or else it's just fiction and fantasy.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

@BoyintheMachine: Have you even read Passport to Magonia? My guess is you haven't or it was a long, long time ago.

 

[Burnt State]

I actually went back to it and started reading it again to better understand the OP as my understanding of Vallée, thorough researcher that he is, that he is trying to draw express parallels between the modern UFO experience and the borderlines between humans and elves, spirits, faeiries, demons etc. as expressed in our lengthy history of mythology, folklore and the recorded stories across time that recount similar strange encounters. He's not trying to sell Magonia as ET so much as positing Magonia as a central metaphor for understanding the human relationship to these otherworldly parts of human imagination. The 900 cases listed in that text along with his wonderful detailed selections of UFO encounters are juxtaposed quite smartly up against very similar tales in the folkloric literature. These memorates are defining features of our persistent encounters with what appears to be otherworldly beings. Magonia, IMHO, is just a placeholder for a modern myth in the making.

Yes, in the past demons could be great stand ins for the greys, for the succubus that comes for us in the night. And you can also see how Keel, in his own crotchety manner, would place even more emphasis on the demonic aspects of these encounters - that was his own perspective on the narratives as he understood them, the way that Jacobs sees the imminent hybrid takeover, or Mack saw them as internal experiences. If anything, Vallée is much more flexible, evolving and probing in his imaginative approaches to the conundrum, but the one thing he is not is a slack academic.

 

[Wade]

That's pretty much what I took from it.

 

[boomerang]

Burnt pretty much summed it up.

Vallee peddles very few concrete tenets regarding the UFO phenomenon. His style is rather a presentation of historically distant vs more recent human perceptions of high strangeness encounters, drawing parallels where possible. His emphasis, whether in referencing ancient or more recent lore, is that of the relationship of the encounter to the individual's subsequent physical and mental state. And then more broadly what it might conceivably mean to humanity. Valle does not attribute the UFO to human imagination only. Nor does he disregard its physical effects while manifest.

My recollection of "Magonia" is not of an attempt to attribute it or any other legend to extraterrestrial sources. I recall it rather as a kind of comparison to descriptions by credible everyday people of things that toy with the human mind (and body) as much today as hundreds if not thousands of years ago.

One of my favorite quotes by Vallee is to the effect that the UFO is trying to tell us that we simply do not understand time and space. Anyone believing in the validity of the UFO mystery would almost have to agree.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

Yup. Well said, Burnt.

Vallee addresses many religious aspects of paranormal experiences in several places, as I recall, and (no surprise) does it quite well.

 

[BoyintheMachine]

I think I provided good information to show how Vallee's information is WRONG. He's projecting his beliefs onto unrelated myths and legends in order to support his agenda, that being that UFOs are not just nuts and bolts but is something far weirder and far stranger.

For those of you who aren't aware, if there was ever one person who caused the most damage to Ufology it was Vallee. Prior to his arrival on the scene, many scientists were showing interest in UFOs. When Vallee showed up he convinced them that UFOs weren't "real" in our understanding but represented some other more magical form of reality. The result was that scientists agreed, it's not real. However, they rejected Vallee's magical explanations of beings on other planes and such, and proposed that the UFO phenomenon was a psychological phenomenon and not an extraterrestrial phenomenon. Then all the scientists left Ufology in droves.

I'm trying to show how Vallee has warped and unfortunately deceived people away from the ETH and "nuts and bolts". However, I realize the damage has already been done and is irreversible at this point. People in Ufology love him at this point, even though he's caused so much damage to the field.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

The best way to understand Vallee's work is to actually read some of it. Amazon reviews and the spew of cranks will not get you there.

 

[BoyintheMachine]

The best way to understand Vallee's work is to actually read some of it. Amazon reviews and the spew of cranks will not get you there.

I've read it. I suggest you read my comment above yours to understand a bit about Ufology prior to Vallee's arrival on the scene.

FYI: Vallee fooled Hynek. Enough said. He was able to convince Hynek that nuts and bolts was wrong and that UFOs weren't "real" in the classical sense.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

The only thing you seem to comprehend about it is that Vallee was one of the first people to publish the idea that a nuts-and-bolts approach was not going to come close to explaining the phenomenon, but I guess that's something. There may be hope for you. The fact that most other intelligent people agree by now can be seen as vindication of his approach, or as demonic by fundies, or any of several other ways. I'll waste no more time on this nonsense.

 

[BoyintheMachine]

The only thing you seem to comprehend about it is that Vallee was one of the first people to publish the idea that a nuts-and-bolts approach was not going to come close to explaining the phenomenon, but I guess that's something. There may be hope for you. The fact that most other intelligent people agree by now can be seen as vindication of his approach, or as demonic by fundies, or any of several other ways. I'll waste no more time on this nonsense.

There's no vindication of his approach and can never be because Vallee is incapable of providing evidence to support his claims. In fact, all he has done is to muddy the waters further. You faith in him is the same as that of faith in a religion.

 

[Oakenwulf]

I found this information about a year ago and have been meaning to post it but something always seemed to come up.

While researching demons of various cultures I came across the following link. As readers may know, one of the classic myths that Jacques Vallee likes to tell and which became a popular subject and title of one of his books, is the myth of Magonia. Vallee presents this as a tale of potential extraterrestrials due to inclusions of air ships and lands in the sky. In reality it's a case of a man looking back at a past mythological tale and projecting his modern day concepts of aliens and extraterrestrials onto it. For you see, the Magonians are not extraterrestrials. They are demons.

The Magonians began as a Celtic fertility spirits, similar to incubi, called Dusios. With the coming of Christianity they were equated with demons and as such were placed in the sky as the sky is the dwelling place of demons, reference Satan as the prince of the powers of air. In the middle ages they began to be called Magonians and the part of the sky they dwelled in was called Magonia. After being identified as demons their behavior evolved to become more demonic, as in they were said to raid farms and steal or ruin crops. Since they dwelled in the sky some stories evolved to them having ships by which they traveled. However, no one saw these ships and it was just assumed that they existed. The classic story that Vallee relates of how peasants mistook people for being Magonians may be a simple case of these people trying to steal crops and were thus mistaken to be these demons.


Dusios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Magonia (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

incubi different than the celtic spirits- ones more beneficial the other of another age and description (incubi is a sex demon, eat your energy and "play" sexual situations nothing to do with crops, where the latter more about popping up or destroying flowers, etc) , I have actuallty also read lore from numerous sources, those that study even "fae-Kind", the Fae have been driving away in ufo like contraptions (other than leaving the earth in their mounds through the underworld), as the word UFO can relate to anything not just those from across the milky way, they could be extraterrestials not origionally from earth as described by then (since all was demon that was not understood) hence you mention, they were other worldly folk, until christianity called them demons, So I dont know what your trying to bash, I also think you got things mixed up a bit, its pretty funny too, cause your quoting from wikipedia.

#1) its wikipedia and #2) both are not related at all, as they seem to sound simular, The magnonia due resemble more extraterrestials or cloud living folk.

 

[BoyintheMachine]

incubi different than the celtic spirits- ones more beneficial the other of another age and description (incubi is a sex demon, eat your energy and "play" sexual situations nothing to do with crops, where the latter more about popping up or destroying flowers, etc) , I have actuallty also read lore from numerous sources, those that study even "fae-Kind", the Fae have been driving away in ufo like contraptions (other than leaving the earth in their mounds through the underworld), as the word UFO can relate to anything not just those from across the milky way, they could be extraterrestials not origionally from earth as described by then (since all was demon that was not understood) hence you mention, they were other worldly folk, until christianity called them demons, So I dont know what your trying to bash, I also think you got things mixed up a bit, its pretty funny too, cause your quoting from wikipedia.

Your reply is extremely discombobulated.

 

[Oakenwulf]

Your reply is extremely discombobulated.

and you need to learn to read

 

[BoyintheMachine]

and you need to learn to read

I read your comment and there is little substance to be able to reply to. You want to believe what Vallee proposes, that's fine. However, you need to realize there's no proof. He convinced you of all of this without ever providing a single piece of evidence.

 

[Wade]

To suggest that Vallee "fooled" Hynek is to get short shift to DOCTOR Hynek, It's not like Mr. Hynek didn't have a mind of his own, it's not like he was led around by his nose. The fact that Hynek went from Swamp gas to accepting the possibility of extraterrestrial life means he was capable of expanding his horizons on his own unless you propose that Mr. Hynek was fooled into mulling over the possibility of life outside our solar system.

 

[BoyintheMachine]

To suggest that Vallee "fooled" Hynek is to get short shift to DOCTOR Hynek, It's not like Mr. Hynek didn't have a mind of his own, it's not like he was led around by his nose. The fact that Hynek went from Swamp gas to accepting the possibility of extraterrestrial life means he was capable of expanding his horizons unless Mr. Hynek was fooled into mulling over life outside our solar system.

My comment concerned the period of time when Hynek was focused on the ETH/nuts and bolts and then met Vallee and then denied the ETH/nuts and bolts in favor of the more mysterious phenomenon that Vallee was suggesting.

Those that knew Hynek personally claim that Hynek changed his mind before his death and realized that if it's not ETH and nuts and bolts then it's not worthy of study. However, we don't have any public statements from Hynek to prove such.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

To suggest that Vallee "fooled" Hynek is to get short shift to DOCTOR Hynek, It's not like Mr. Hynek didn't have a mind of his own, it's not like he was led around by his nose. The fact that Hynek went from Swamp gas to accepting the possibility of extraterrestrial life means he was capable of expanding his horizons on his own unless you propose that Mr. Hynek was fooled into mulling over the possibility of life outside our solar system.

The really funny thing about all that is, as anyone who has bothered to find and read either edition of Vallee's published journal, "Forbidden Science" will know, Hynek as the senior scientist and Vallee's mentor influenced Vallee's thinking at least as much as he influenced Hynek. Ah well, there is no end of foolishness spouted about both men.