Germany's lack of UFO documents?

[Goggs Mackay]

We all know the countries that have been releasing some previously classified documents relating to UFO's.
Brazil, Peru, Ecuador in South America. UK, France, Belgium in Europe etc.

Does anyone else see the glaring omission of Germany? Any search of Germany and UFOs just brings up the same old Nazi/saucer tech stuff but that is pretty ancient history and from a very different country (phew).

This surprises me as Germany I think is now one of the most open and tolerant of say the G8 (or whatever number it is now) countries and being slap bang in the middle of Europe, I would be very surprised, considering the size of Germany, if it had not experienced similar numbers of sightings to, say, France or the UK.

Any members from Germany that might have a bit of local info?

SURELY THEY HAVE SOME GOOD STUFF?

 

[Polterwurst]

I guess they have. But as a German I can tell you that the terms "open and tolerant" do not apply in my country when it comes to UFOs. For example, we have one scientist here who openly declares that inexplicable UFOs are a fact and who writes books about the subject using his real name. He gets laughed off and ridiculed all the time and is kind of a scientific outcast now. Fringy and freaky. At the same time, I know there are lots of other people in the scientific community interested, too, but they would never publish a book on UFOs under their real names, because doing so would be utter social and scientific suicide.

Officially, unexplainable UFOs do not exist here in Germany. Reports and sightings are always ridiculed in main-stream media and only the hoaxes and the obviously kooky stuff is shown or written about. The 2007 National Press Club press conference with the commercial and military pilots was nearly not covered at all or just shrugged off (in one report I read the conference was called "just another kooky ufologist meeting").

When a filmmaker made a serious documentary on the Belgian Triangles (around 92 or 93 I think) and concluded that there had been something real and inexplicable going on, a "righteous" outrage followed in the scientific community. There was actually an official discussion on TV if this kind of "misleading" reporting should be allowed. Following that, other documentaries mostly made sure that they either concluded it was all explainable or outright nonsense.

There was an attempt by this guy last year to force the government by law to release their UFO files, and a comittee within the Parliament decided that there must have been some governmental department looking into that, but nothing else happened.

Here is a report on that:

It's by the german exopolitics "division" but what can you do, nobody else cares (or dares?) to report on that (and with english subtitles at that).

So, there should be documents indeed. I remember an incident where a UFO was seen on radar zipping from West to East Germany and back. Now, if that didn't get their attention, huh? And that should be only one of a whole lot of "good" UFO files (not to mention the probable IFOs).

Honestly I think these case files at least up to the 90s, went directly to the US. After the Second World War, America was the country we looked to for about anything. I don't think there were many political decisions made without asking the US government first. So, if the US decided to keep the lid on UFOs, Germany obviously followed them. And unless our "Big Brother" signals green light first, there won't be any files released, I'm afraid.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Thanks very much for the reply. Much appreciated.
Well, you've really surprised me with this (but then again, why I am surprised when the thread is about the lack of data?).
It is quite annoying really for the Belgian triangle flap to be ridiculed in such a fashion. Surely the press in Germany does not think it has more FACTS than the whole Belgian Air Force and a good deal of their Police, never mind the many citizens who were witness to the sightings?
Recent reports of someone 'admitting' to hoaxing the classic triangle photograph made SPIT IN MY BREAKFAST! - does that imbicile think that his piece of polystyrene was the reason F-16's were scrambled? Does he think the police were following this hoax apparatus?

I made the point in a previous thread too that there seems to have been a deference to the US in all things UFO in the last decades from most countries (while I think the USSR, far from deferring to the US, had their own reasons for secrecy) though I am sure this power the US government has over other countries will wane, especially as countries like Brazil, China and India get bigger on the world stage.

Oh well, least you've provided a decent answer to my query..

 

[Polterwurst]

You're welcome. I admit I'm a bit disgruntled about all this. About the Belgian Triangles, I couldn't believe, when I found a clip on Youtube in which General de Brouwer confirmed that these things were indeed unexplained objects, that I hadn't heard or read about this statement anywhere in our media (and the Belgian border is not too far from where I live).

 

[Goggs Mackay]

It's always a good idea to ask around because we can never trust we are being told everthing by our main media outlets.
So I know there had to be a bit more info on the German situation, you found out a bit more about the Belgian flap etc. The internet is amazing for this reason.
It makes me more sure there really is something to the whole UFO business when I hear your media is basically refusing to cover salient aspects of the Belgian case - if there is nothing to it all and no real UFOs exist, then surely there is no reason not to publicise certain things.
Media outlets can find out pretty fast if people are not paying attention to what they broadcast and we all know that UFOs make very popular news items.
Therefore the reason for them not to include what is really the best evidence is simple. It is a cover-up or at least an unwillingness to let people make up their own minds (which to me is a cover-up).

I really hope that someday soon, the truth of all this comes out. If indeed that does happen, I am going to feel a few things:
1. Happy to finally find out what has been going on.
2. Even happier to see all the back-tracking by the media, military, politicians and scientists as they scramble to account for their behaviour or ignorance.
3. Ecstatic because I get to be really smug, with a big smug smile on my face especially for all those people who thought even the idea of UFOs was lunacy.
Payback's a bitch!

 

[Polterwurst]

So I know there had to be a bit more info on the German situation, you found out a bit more about the Belgian flap etc. The internet is amazing for this reason.

Absolutely. It does have a few drawbacks (you really have to filter) but for freedom of information (and dscussing interesting stuff with people on the other side of the planet) it's just amazing.

It makes me more sure there really is something to the whole UFO business when I hear your media is basically refusing to cover salient aspects of the Belgian case - if there is nothing to it all and no real UFOs exist, then surely there is no reason not to publicise certain things.

Well, the yellow press and some fringy authors did report on it, I guess, but well, who believes them. In the mainstream, it was just debunking and indirectly making fun of the witnesses. But I don't think that there is some hidden agenda behind it. It's just that scientists don't accept it, therefore the upper class doesn't and therefore mainstream media feels compelled to do so. In recent years, the private TV stations (which exist here only for some 20 years) has had the typical overly sensationalist covering of the UFO phenomenon, but they are just like the yellow press, all entertainment, nothing serious.

I really hope that someday soon, the truth of all this comes out.

Your word in god's ear. But if it does, it'll have a hard time here.

 

[dyingsun]

Thanks Polter, same exact experiences and feelings towards our current situation regarding unexplained..anything really, here.

 

[Polterwurst]

Yup. UFOs are only the tip of the iceberg I guess. To qualify all of this, I don't think that there is anything wrong with trying to be sceptical. Sobriety and level-headedness are good, even if in our country and elsewhere they may lead to what I'd call a "conspiracy of common sense". If you haven't seen or experienced any evidence to the contrary yourself, you're perfectly entitled to doubt just about anything I guess.

But to look at things like the 2007 and 2010 National Press Club statements, Leslie Kean's book, COMETA, "Out of the blue", the Hessdalen project or even the better cases in the UFO files released by various governments and still say "it's all poppycock" instead of "now, wait a minute", that's nothing to do with a realistic world-view, I'd think.

And let's not forget the other side of the extreme, the "crazies" as Gene calls them. It's one thing to have an experience that seems inexplicable and to begin to think "what's going on" but another to go and embrace all the esoteric stuff and wild conclusions out there. I don't think that we would have this overly sceptical reaction if they weren't the first ones you get to hear most of the time when the media report on UFOs or the paranormal.

...um, sorry for the rant, but I had to get that off my chest.......feeling much better now.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

It's good you mentioned the Hessdalen project. One of these really weird cases in which there seems to be very different unexplained phenomena. I think maybe some ET are visiting Hessdalen to see the lights too! Great to see a University unashamedly involved.

 

[Cabal]

Polter, who is the German scientist mention?

Be most skeptical of those authorities who pretend to be skeptical while also never supporting efforts to turn skeptical queries towards them.

 

[Polterwurst]

Illobrand von Ludwiger – Wikipedia
(sorry couldn't find anything in english)

Former astrophysicist, now fringe author. He is more scientific about the phenomenon than other german authors in this field and he is the only one with an at least somewhat scientific background.

As I said, I'm sure, other scientists are looking into UAPs, too, but they would never admit to it in public or write books under their real names. And no, he's not much of an authority and he surely doesn't even pretend to be very sceptical. He's got a very dry sense of humor, though, which I guess you have to develop when you're constantly laughed at.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, there was another scientist publishing books under his real name, Dr. Johannes Fiebag. He passed on in 1999.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Hold it Polterwurst - you said you were German but you used the word 'poppycock' - that has to be a choice to be funny I hope, because in the UK only the most old-fashioned upper-class person uses it. I consider myself to have a decent vocabulary and can say with certainty I have never spoken that word aloud!!
Mind you, I constantly find Europeans who speak English do so better than than the average Brit! Your English is good enough to make me think you are pretending to be German!

 

[Polterwurst]

Wow, thanks for the compliment!

But seriously, I use words like "poppycock" because I heard them on the paracast or some other podcast. I vaguely remember some American general using that word when asked about UFOs. I guess listening to these podcasts has become part of my english learning process. Besides, I've had some eight years of english at school and three more years to become a foreign language correspondent. English was actually the only subject I could score some good marks with.

I'm not pretending to be German that much I can assure you. Why should I, or why should anybody, anyway? Being german is no fun, especially in the somewhat conservative rural area where I live. Hier im Westerwald ist so ziemlich der Hund eingeschlafen, deshalb muss ich übers Internet mit dem Rest der Welt in Verbindung bleiben. Und das geht am besten auf Englisch. You know.

But I'm still making some typical german mistakes like "realizing a movie script" which I guess should rather be something like "making a movie script reality". And if you heard my accent you would know where I come from.

And btw, the same applies to my story in the "Born again" thread. I'm not pretending or making up anything. I know there's people who use the anonymity of the internet to have a laugh at other people's expense. I absolutely despise this kind of attitude. I think hoaxers are one of the reasons why none of this stuff I'm interested in - like UFOs or Prof. Ian Stevenson's work - is being taken seriously.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Hoaxers - serious subject regarding UFOs.

I've questioned before exactly who is making all the quality UFO hoax videos? Some of the videos going around are damn good, equal to many decent-budget Hollywood Sci-fi movies.
These hoaxes must take a fair amount of time and ability, even with industry standard programs, it isn't something just anyone can do in their bedroom without some training or skills gained over a period of time.
So what is in it for the hoaxers? The nature of the beast usually dictates that uploaders of hoax videos hide behind screen names and certainly they don't seem to make it easy to contact them to check out the voracity of the videos.

So let's say for a good 3-min hoax video it takes 20hours+ to make (I could be way-off but I'm thinking I've underestimated if anything) from having the 'real' portion of the video and to edit in the CGI and try to blend the two so it at least passes first check. Probably someone with the computer power and software and skills to make such a video has a job, so maybe he can work on a video a couple of hours a night for 10-15 nights excluding a day off a week.
So at the end of all this effort, the video is posted online and what does the hoaxer get out of it? A kick watching the comments come in, knowing some will believe and some will not? There is no money in it because everyone will be suspicious of someone claiming to have a UFO video and wanting money.

People will no doubt start asking all sorts of questions about where and when the video was filmed, where there any other witnesses etc?
A hoaxer is not going to give out contact details in case real researchers come a-knocking, and they don't have any facts to back up their claims.

So back to what is in it for the hoaxers? I mean the quality ones that make you think 'well it could be or could not be...'

No money, no fame, possilbly hassle......what's the point?
Anyone who truly is interested in the truth of UFOs would not want to muddy the waters, at least not for free. And anyone who does not believe UFOs exist I think, are unlikely to go to the hassle of creating a good fake.
Is it mis-guided believers who think they are doing the cause some good by trying to catch the intentions of people who are undecided about UFOs? I don't think so, there are surely better ways. Certainly if someone is creating hoaxes in a genuine wish to convert people to believing in UFOs, surely all they will achieve is the opposite as the hoaxes are exposed -as they invevitably are.
So is it maybe dis-information by those who wish to supress the reality of UFOs? What better way to divert attention from real UFOs than to make good fakes that will be found out, but in the process, put off those who are undecided about the whole thing. You have to imagine that if someone's first 20 exposures to videos of UFOs turn out to be fakes, they are going to quickly get disillusioned with the whole thing, and probably think any video after, real or not, is fake.
No-one wants to be taken for a sucker repeatedly and so the cumalitive effect of repeated hoaxes is to turn people right off - exactly the purpose behind the fakes.
The best way to hide a lie is to surround it with truth.

So I am going to come down on the side of thinking that the best UFO hoax videos/photographs are part of official disinformation. Seems to me the most likely explanation?

 

[Ezechiel]

I would guess that the third reich had a profound effect on German psyche. Ideas like aryan supremacy or stuff that could potentially support Scientology is ditched immediately. There is no tolerance for material that could fuel a sect... Exopolitics fits the bill.

Imho, If they recognize any UFO phenomena, it's not made public.

 

[Polterwurst]

Ideas like aryan supremacy or stuff that could potentially support Scientology is ditched immediately.

Yeah, we've got a hell of a sore spot there. It's been calming down a little in the last decades, but sects are still automatically suspicious (which I guess is not too bad, I don't trust them either).

But in former times it was even individual interests that could make you at least be frowned at. For example, if you were interested in things like norse mythology or Fantasy (like I was), you'd almost inevitably be suspected of right-wing cultist tendencies. I'm a big fan of Prof. Tolkien's books, but back at the end of the 70s, beginning 80s, I just couldn't talk to anyone about it. When the the Lord of the Rings came out here some time in the 60s the main literary critics had declared it a piece of right-wing propaganda, what with all the talk about good and bad races and the elements from norse mythology. If you read those criticisms and compare them with the success these books eventually had, it's a real laugh. And following that, the whole Fantasy genre would be regarded as questionable. But at least that attitude has changed very much in recent years.

And as I posted in the "Iron Sky trailer" thread, I think that sore spot might be why UFO and paranormal research are so fervently opposed here. Because at least some of the Nazi brass were preoccupied with esoteric theories (like the Thule society) while others were looking into things like rocket propulsion which was mainly science fiction back then). So after the War, the mainstream scientists went "we can't be mislead by this esoteric and cultist stuff, we know where that leads, it's got to be all bunk". And as I said elsewehere, the upper class and therefore the press and the public opinion followed suit.

Anyone who truly is interested in the truth of UFOs would not want to muddy the waters, at least not for free. And anyone who does not believe UFOs exist I think, are unlikely to go to the hassle of creating a good fake.

I'd agree with the first sentence. The second part, I don't know. My guess is, there are some wannabe CGI artists out there who would very much like to have a job at "Industrial Lights and Magic" and studios like that. So they create these "better" videos (I think you mean vids like those Hawaiian UFOs that look like they're straight out of some movie) to say "hey look what we can do". Or maybe sometimes it's even those FX specialists themselves having some fun.

As for the disinformation theory, that's not so far-fetched, I guess. If you don't want the truth to get out via real footage, it would be a good idea to flood the public with hoaxed videos. But I guess they actually wouldn't have to do that much. There's already loads of hoaxers out there doing it for them. Maybe for "fun" or as I said to say "look what I can do".

But to come back to the "German question", I have my own conspiracy theory there regarding hoaxers. There are some more or less "well hoaxed" videos showing genuine WW II footage with "Nazi saucers" CGI'd in. I don't think that's government disinformation and I don't know anything about their origins, but I can't shake the feeling that at least some of these were done by the "nazi underground" here in Germany or elsewhere to make young people interested. Kind of a Nazi propaganda of the 21st century.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@polterwurst - yes, i have thought about a wannabe CGI artist posting hoaxed UFO videos as part of their body of work - what better subject to show off your abilities (Sci-fi will always be the largest user of CGI'd spaceships and the 2nd most popular search request online is 'UFO') than to make a UFO video for posting on youtube?
But all that means is that the wanna-be ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) guys fall into the category of people who make fakes for money, even if that money is future earnings from that type of work. If there was absolutely no chance of them getting any exposure from hoax work, I doubt they'd make them solely just to sit back themselves and thing 'wow, look what I can do'. People generally show-off to others, not themselves.
So again I am back to those who have no financial reasons and no real notoriety reasons. Remember that most fake vids are posted under screen names and there is no direct way of contacting the poster so that the sighting can be investigated further. If there is truth to the video, anyone posting it obviously wants it to be taken seriously and would welcome investigation. If there is no truth to the video evidence, then it is unlikely the poster will make it easy for people to locate them for the purposes of further investigation.
In the Paracast, it is often mentioned by the hosts and guests that it is always wise to wonder what the motivation is behind anyone supposedly providing evidence or a willingness to be public with information?
What is the motivation of the posters of fake UFO videos? If we seperate those who are obviously in it for the money, then what is the motivation for the remaining hoaxers? I just don't think many people will sit for hours doing an excellent job of faking a UFO video for nothing - no money, no fame, no notoriety and certainly no women!
These thoughts are my own and I have no real evidence to back them up apart from what I see with my own eyes and what I read about what seem to be real cases.
There are still an awful lot of quality fakes (and I mean well-produced fakes, even if they are spotted as such quickly) left over once you remove anything obviously designed for money or selling books etc.
Yes it may be a stretch to think there are employees of whomever's task it is to supress info on UFO's, sitting on their asses getting paid to put out hoax videos on the internet. But, if you accept there is such a group or groups active in the world today, whos remit is to supress UFOs and to muddy the waters so that real cases are mixed with fake ones - then it is not much of a stretch to think they are going to use the most accessible and most accessed medium to which those interested in UFOs turn their attention to daily; the internet.

If I was asked by the boss of any covert group who supress UFOs to deliberately pollute the available good visual data of UFOs with good quality fakes, the obvious way to do that would be to put fakes on the internet that are good enough to garner interest but not good enough to stand up to close scrutiny. They would have to be made at such a level that they are usually spotted as fakes, but not so quickly that they do not gather a wealth of 'believers' before being found out.
The way human psychology seems to work makes it so that once people put something like UFO evidence into their own personal 'true' basket in their minds, it becomes very difficult and even uncomfortable for them to change 'baskets' from 'true' to 'untrue'.

The upshot of this is that people who want to believe will quickly accept a decent fake video as further evidence supporting their belief and this gets ingrained in their brain quickly, so much so that when the evidence is quickly proved fake, they cannot or will not change their minds.

An example of this would be the Billy Meier case. A long time ago, when I first saw the meier photos I thought they looked like good evidence. Then mostly from starting to read Meiers' writings I started to have doubts. Then evidence of trickery started to be disseminated.
Then Meier had a wedding! Cake!
In an instant it all crumbled away. Later on still I saw some excellent videos showing precisely how the photos can be faked, with one arm I may add.
But there are still people trumpeting the Meier case as the pinnicle of ufology and him as being the 'only real contactee'.....blah blah etc.
Meier is proof that people strongly want to believe and there is not much you can do to change the mind of someone who believes so strongly. Anything to the contrary just gets thought of as 'the government trying to hide the truth'.

Without doubt the single greatest obstacle to ufology being taken seriously is not the lack of evidence or lack of quality evidence. It is the willingness of people to continue to believe in things already proved to be hoaxes.
The real irony is that there is a wealth of real unexplained cases of flying objects. There is absolutely no need whatsover to continue supporting frauds when people could spend their time on the really good cases.
Can you imagine what could be achieved if people got behind the few really good solid cases and put as much effort and passion into those as they do for the carriers of lies such as Meier, Clifford Stone etc
Websites, books, lectures - all concentrating on cases with good quality evidence. Evidence that the powers-that-be do not want to contend with, because they can not prove something that happened did not. Not concusively anyway.

Yes, in this field there are knights in shining armour, seeking the truth and slaying the false prophets. These knights host radio-shows, podcasts, books, online articles and lectures. They are fighting the good fight and will continue to do so, with the support of people like you and I.
But they have to swim against the tide of bullshit that people make money and fame off of.

Too many people interested in ufology want the easy answers and the ones that look nice to them or the ones that fit into their already formed opinions.
There are really are not too many of us - those only interested in facts and most importantly, willing to put things from our 'true' basket to our 'untrue' basket when shown evidence of falsehood.
Elsewhere on this forum -'Project Camelot Insanity' I think is the title - Is evidence of someone who has a very public profile but virtually a non-existent 'spam' filter for evidence of the paranormal/UFOs.
Kerry Cassidy not only believes most things she is told, she seems unable to change her mind when presented with evidence to the contrary. She was doing (or not doing as the case may be) this a long time ago - think Dan Burisch. She is now behind a fake US Navy SEAL and it is obvious to those watching the story unfold that she is identical to a religious fanatic. Nothing will change her mind.
In fact, if the actual subjects of her 'documentaries' were to suddenly confess that they made it all up, I can practically GUARRANTEE that she would then think said subject had been 'got at' by the government or military and 'forced' to recant their stories! You could not make this stuff up when it comes to Kerry Cassidy (her inability to tell a fraud and her inability to change her mind when evidence of fraud comes to her from an outside source).

You ever start writing a post or replying to one and realise 40mins later you have been writing and reading non-stop and totally in the 'forum zone'? No? Well, I do!

 

[Polterwurst]

Been there, done that. I can easily understand that a topic like hoaxers, blind believers and possible deliberate disinformation can lead to longer posts, if you've accepted the reality of (or maybe even seen) genuinely unexplained UFOs and would very much like to see scientists and governments look into them and share their results with the public.

And it does have a lot to do with the topic of this thread. If public opinion in Germany was not very inclined to accept UFOs when the first modern UFO sighting reports came up, it got really aggressively so with the "help" of more or less obvious hoaxes, true believers and contactees. Maybe there would be more open research if it wasn't for all this myth-making. And maybe my government would've followed the other countries in releasing UFO documents.

 

[TheManInBlack]

It's good you mentioned the Hessdalen project. One of these really weird cases in which there seems to be very different unexplained phenomena. I think maybe some ET are visiting Hessdalen to see the lights too! Great to see a University unashamedly involved.

I agree. I think the Hessdalen lights are suggestive of a natural phenomenon -- some have speculated on the cause* -- and the daylight discs appear to be technological craft.

*See: Hessdalen light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Polterwurst]

Well, whatever they are, they're not really acknowledged by official science. I think that's fascinating enough in itself. I'd not be surprised if the scientists eventually declared them a rare natural phenomenon. And I don't think they have much in common with daylight disks either.

What's strange, though, are the reports of the Hessdalen lights maneuvering, seemingly interacting with each other and reacting to observers (torch light and laserpointers shone at them), as has allegedly been the case with a lot of similar "ball of light" type sightings all over the world.