Ghosts and Faith

[liar_paradox]

Based on my personal experiences, it seems that most people in Western society believe in ghosts. Such ideas do contradict the traditional views of Christianity, although some might make arguments against this. These views have much to do with the Old Testament and God mandating to the Jewish people to kill anyone among them who communicate with the dead and such practices. Additionally, since Christianity already explains what happens after one passes away and earth-bound spirits aren't mentioned, its typically viewed that the existence of ghosts would be a contradiction to Christian teachings.

But, in spite of that, many still believe in the existence of ghosts and are unaware of anything that I mentioned in the above paragraph. I want to point out that the point of this thread isn't to ignite theological debate, or anything like that. But, rather, I'm just curious to know how many people believe in ghosts and believe themselves to be Christian.

Additionally, I would like to hear from those who believe in ghosts but are NOT Christian. I would like to know what those people practice and what their general beliefs are.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

yes and yes

 

[Kevin Daly]

Based on my personal experiences, it seems that most people in Western society believe in ghosts. Such ideas do contradict the traditional views of Christianity, although some might make arguments against this. These views have much to do with the Old Testament and God mandating to the Jewish people to kill anyone among them who communicate with the dead and such practices. Additionally, since Christianity already explains what happens after one passes away and earth-bound spirits aren't mentioned, its typically viewed that the existence of ghosts would be a contradiction to Christian teachings.

But, in spite of that, many still believe in the existence of ghosts and are unaware of anything that I mentioned in the above paragraph. I want to point out that the point of this thread isn't to ignite theological debate, or anything like that. But, rather, I'm just curious to know how many people believe in ghosts and believe themselves to be Christian.

Additionally, I would like to hear from those who believe in ghosts but are NOT Christian. I would like to know what those people practice and what their general beliefs are.

I call myself a Christian and like most of my family I believe in ghosts. We just accepted that they were part of er, life's rich tapesty. Or something.
As for belief in ghosts being consistent with Christianity: Point 1) Christianity is not the religion of the Old Testament, except for some sects (most regrettably including the idiots who like to go on about "accepting Jeee-zuss as your perrrsonal saviour!" while ignoring everything he said). Point 2) There is all the difference in the world between a prohibition against necromancy (which does hold in mainstream Christianity), and the belief that the spirits of the dead may make themselves directly perceptible in some cases. There is also a grey area as to whether what we encounter as ghosts are in a given case spirits of the dead or spirits of another kind (the word "ghost" after all originally just mean "Spirit", hence the obsolete term "Holy Ghost"). One of my aunts lived in a house that was believed to be haunted and my family lived there for a while - the consensus was and is among those I've discussed it with since that the malign presence most of us felt (sometimes accompanied by footsteps and moving icy patches and so on) was something that had never been alive in the human sense. But I digress, and not for the first or last time.

 

[CapnG]

Speaking as the son of an Anglican priest who has met many, many members of the clergy I can assure that there is nothing at all contradictory about the notion of ghosts or spirits and christian dogma. The bible itself mentions the spirits of the dead in several places.

I would also point out that "Holy Ghost" is by no means an obsolete term.

 

[MVoltage]

Hi,

I very much believe in ghosts as I have seen quite a number over the years. Indeed the first ghost that I saw was witnessed by 9 other people.
I still see ghosts to this day, and think that I may be "sensitive" to them....or just aware and know what to look for....apologies if I sound arrogant - that is not my intention...just trying to be frank and honest.
Regarding religion, I have come to realise that there is a distinct duality in the bible. It is almost as if there is a second "presence" pretending to be God. This second presence however is not nice at all. God is supposed to be nice and forgiving, yet out of the blue in the Old Testament He says to commit a nasty act, like kill loads of people....Read it and see what you think...a very distinct duality. I am not religious but believe in the existence of God (contradiction?), and have experienced too much to doubt His existence...I just know he is there....difficult to put into words.
Anyway, I hope I am not seeming to be rambling on and on....Not a good start with my first proper reply.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

ahh, ghosts, religion. faith. divinity. all in your first post!

you are going to have soo much fun here!

yes, I have noticed the duality you write about in the New vs Old Testaments. I always putting it down to God getting faith, after he finally had a kid, and being nicer because he was a parent, now; perhaps gaining an understanding of how seriously screwed up kids can get and parents (most, anyway) will keep on loving them and doing what they can to soften the harsh edges of life that so often act as bumper cars to their children's mistakes and ignorance...

but I digress, which I often do. Welcome to the forums!

 

[methshin]

I consider myself an agnostic person, I think it's pretty arrogant to be either religious or athiest. Nobody can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is or isn't a God or "creator", so until such a moment happens, I'll lump myself with those who will admit that they have no idea.

As far as ghosts are concerned, I have no idea, I've heard stories and seen "strange" things on ghost hunting shows, but whether or not that can be attributed to the deceased is quite a stretch. There is something happening, but whether it is from another dimension, some sort of Entity, some sort of earthly being we have yet to understand, or in fact the soul of a former human being is unknown by my standards.

Even though I don't support religion of any shape or form, I'm not condemning those that do. It's not my place to tell you how to live your life, and if you want to live it in accordance to what is taught in the bible, than more power to you.

My problem stems from the zealots that try to force their beleifs down your throat or try to condemn you for beleiving otherwise. Whats even worse is when they try to enforce their beleifs as fact in our schools and legal establishments. If dinosaur bones were placed on earth to test my faith, then these people must have been placed on earth to test my patience.

All this religion is making want to listen to Dimmu Borgir. lml.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

Sorry, if you're a Christian, can't sum it up for ya. It's like saying you're blind and asking me to show you sign language.

but remember Helen Keller, she was blind and deaf, and learned sign language from Anne Sullivan

 

[Stillborn]

but remember Helen Keller, she was blind and deaf, and learned sign language from Anne Sullivan

So you are saying I should try and teach people without sight something they can't see? Because one person you know of did it through touch? If so, sorry, I am too lazy for that.

Oh, I deleted my post Annette responded to, before I knew she replied to it. I recognize that it needed more elaboration than I felt like giving to my post, so scrapped it.

I am curious, Annette. Why do you consider yourself a Christian? No right or wrong answer, I am really wanting to know your answer. And no, I won't pick on you for it.

 

[MVoltage]

ahh, ghosts, religion. faith. divinity. all in your first post!

you are going to have soo much fun here!

yes, I have noticed the duality you write about in the New vs Old Testaments. I always putting it down to God getting faith, after he finally had a kid, and being nicer because he was a parent, now; perhaps gaining an understanding of how seriously screwed up kids can get and parents (most, anyway) will keep on loving them and doing what they can to soften the harsh edges of life that so often act as bumper cars to their children's mistakes and ignorance...

but I digress, which I often do. Welcome to the forums!

Hi,
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Thanks for the welcome as well!
I am glad that you have noticed the duality as well....I thought that it was just me. I remember seeing such a duality....one minute nice...the next nasty. I can't remember the name of them, but I recently saw a documentary on a group of people who had also observed this duality. They were founded (if I remember correctly) not long after Christs death, and were persecuted for their beliefs. They believed that this duality was due to a great evil tring to influence human matters. I saw this program after I noticed this duality.

OOPS! Rambling again...I like "things" about ghosts. I have seen a few. Have you encountered any "borrowers"? You can't find something, and are convinced you put it in a certain place, but it is not there. You look again on this particular place a couple of days later, and there is the item - but it was not there when you looked originally....You have a borrower. I know that this is a simplistic view, and there is slightly more to it than just this, but my wife and I have one that has been with us at the past 3 houses that we have lived in.

Here endeth the ramble-a-thon

 

[CapnG]

Hi,
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Thanks for the welcome as well!
I am glad that you have noticed the duality as well....I thought that it was just me. I remember seeing such a duality....one minute nice...the next nasty. I can't remember the name of them, but I recently saw a documentary on a group of people who had also observed this duality. They were founded (if I remember correctly) not long after Christs death, and were persecuted for their beliefs. They believed that this duality was due to a great evil tring to influence human matters. I saw this program after I noticed this duality

I believe you're speaking of the Essenes. As for the duality, this is why the new testament is often referred to (amongst clergy!) as "Part 2- in which God is in a considerably better mood..."

 

[AnnetteMarie]

...
I am curious, Annette. Why do you consider yourself a Christian? No right or wrong answer, I am really wanting to know your answer. And no, I won't pick on you for it.

because what He represents is what humanity needs to strive for. whether or not Jesus was the divine Son of God, doesn't matter at this point - the ideals he preached are very worth trying to live up to. Kindness to one another, forgiveness, living a life that helps others, those sorts of ideals are worth emulating. The idea of Jesus seems to be more important and needed these days, than Jesus, himself.

plus, I learned about him in Catechism, and thought he was really cool...

 

[methshin]

I believe you're speaking of the Essenes. As for the duality, this is why the new testament is often referred to (amongst clergy!) as "Part 2- in which God is in a considerably better mood..."

Where he said it was cool to wear poly/cotton shirts?

 

[TClaeys]

the ideals he preached are very worth trying to live up to. Kindness to one another, forgiveness, living a life that helps others, those sorts of ideals are worth emulating.

That is kinda cool. It is using Jesus as a model rather than neccesarily buying into all the other stuff(even though maybe you do). But the hypocrisy is the masses that dress up in their Sunday suits, sing the praises, recite the prayers, take the body and blood, even brand their cars with Jesus fish and bumper stickers but then cheat on their spouse, take advantage their boss and coworkers, cut people off in traffic, and every other self centered act you can imagine. People seem to have no clue as far as how to live a righteous life. I am not a Christian, but attempt to live my life without that hypocrisy.

As far as ghosts, one question: For those that have seen ghosts, do you think if I was there with you would I be able to see it as well?? Or is something that is somehow internalized ??(ie you can't just see them, it is more than just visible light, or maybe less) I have never seen a ghost but don't dismiss people(or ghosts for that matter) that have.

 

[CapnG]

As far as ghosts, one question: For those that have seen ghosts, do you think if I was there with you would I be able to see it as well?? Or is something that is somehow internalized ??(ie you can't just see them, it is more than just visible light, or maybe less) I have never seen a ghost but don't dismiss people(or ghosts for that matter) that have.

I think it's more of a perceptual thing. Some people seem to see ghosts often and easily while others never see anything. Think of it like regular eyesight: without my glasses my vision's atrocious but that doesn't mean the things I can't see aren't there.

 

[TClaeys]

I think it's more of a perceptual thing. Some people seem to see ghosts often and easily while others never see anything. Think of it like regular eyesight: without my glasses my vision's atrocious but that doesn't mean the things I can't see aren't there.

That said, do you think they are physically part of the electromagnetic spectrum, perhaps outside of whatever visible light people normally see?? If that is the case, then infrared cameras may be on to something. Unless they are the other part of the spectrum. Maybe we need an x-ray or UV camera.

I know its just speculation, but could it be somehow outside of the spectrum altogether?? Perhaps an unknown phenomenon but within the realm of scientific discovery given the time.

 

[CapnG]

That said, do you think they are physically part of the electromagnetic spectrum, perhaps outside of whatever visible light people normally see?? If that is the case, then infrared cameras may be on to something. Unless they are the other part of the spectrum. Maybe we need an x-ray or UV camera.

I know its just speculation, but could it be somehow outside of the spectrum altogether?? Perhaps an unknown phenomenon but within the realm of scientific discovery given the time.

It's difficult to say. My own theories about ghosts aren't all that concrete. Suffice it to say I'm not sure it's a problem technology can solve as easily as a pair of glasses or an infra-red lense. I don't think the technology we need for this sort of thing has been invented yet, so in that sense yes, "outside the spectrum" is as good a term as any.

 

[Paul Kimball]

because what He represents is what humanity needs to strive for. whether or not Jesus was the divine Son of God, doesn't matter at this point - the ideals he preached are very worth trying to live up to. Kindness to one another, forgiveness, living a life that helps others, those sorts of ideals are worth emulating. The idea of Jesus seems to be more important and needed these days, than Jesus, himself.

That's one aspect of Jesus. I've always had just as much respect for the revolutionary who went into the Temple and threw out the money-changers.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

That's one aspect of Jesus. I've always had just as much respect for the revolutionary who went into the Temple and threw out the money-changers.

yeah, it's not like we could use him now, or somethin...

 

[methshin]

because what He represents is what humanity needs to strive for. whether or not Jesus was the divine Son of God, doesn't matter at this point - the ideals he preached are very worth trying to live up to. Kindness to one another, forgiveness, living a life that helps others, those sorts of ideals are worth emulating. The idea of Jesus seems to be more important and needed these days, than Jesus, himself.

Or you could just be civil. I don't think that you need to follow Christianity etc. to know how to treat your fellow earthlings.

When people say "we need Jesus now than ever" it pisses me off. It's like saying that you need him b/c you can't change things on your own, or that without the teachings of the bible, the world will turn to dissarray.

People were benevolent and charitable before the days of Jesus, and personally, there have been far to many wars about the man that I feel it's to late for this figurehead to be used for any good.

What is the shelf life for a deity anyways?