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Holy trickster Christopher O' Brian.

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While I believe absolutely that this gentleman believes what he is saying - he is ill-informed and not well-tutored in the matter. That jumps out at once (not to mention that he is extremely tedious and obscure in his repetitious delivery - but I think that has to do with his 'true-believer' stance). For over 5 minutes he endlessly repeats what he believes (and he is honest enough to call it a belief and a bias) and then proceeds to 'prove' nothing at all.

A quick google landed me with the following link - as well as a pretty darn cool picture of Flavius. :cool:

Talk about an interesting face - LINK: http://imageshack.us/a/img818/9641/3ivy.jpg

Anyway......:rolleyes:......stay focussed......

LINK: Joseph Atwill’s Caesar’s Messiah debunked | End the Lie – Independent News
"No serious historians claim Jesus did not exist. Atwill’s claims have been rejected by people who are not the types to side with Christians out of some sense of loyalty or to support the traditional orthodox view of the faith. Among these are Robert Price in his review of the 2005 book and Tom Verenna in his updated post that is far from charitable in dealing with Atwill’s claims."

I would consider myself in the above category - always with the serious caveat that I am a student of history and in no way see myself as an authority. That said, I can say that the Matthew Gospel has long been understood - particularly in the Catholic Stream - to be on the order of a political tract written to convince the Jews that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah as foretold in the Old Testament. That said does not mean the Gospel was falsified, however.

It has also been recognized that the individuals described in the Matthew and the Luke Gospel are not the same person. This tends to be glossed over in exoteric exegesis - though in esoteric streams this fact is well-known - that two very distinct children are being described - and further, the existence of these two children (both named Jesus - very common name back then) as well as John (the Baptist) were actually painted by 15th century Italian artists (for example).

Aside: I have not read this book but in trying to google a link to a painting I came across this which will do just as well; LINK:
"Although the Gospels of Matthew and Luke support the tradition that there were two Jesus children, the idea was not adopted by the Church. Something of the idea lingered on in Christian art and symbolism, but the full tradition was preserved only in the literature of such esoteric sects as the Gnostics, who did not adopt all the official teachings of institutionalized Christianity.

"David Ovason explores the literature and art in which these symbols have been preserved, in particular, the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Coptic, and Greek literature discovered in the 20th century at sites near the Dead Sea and in Egypt. The texts confirm the belief in the existence of two Messiahs.

"Ovason explores many fascinating and "apocryphal" texts containing references to the two children, which were later expunged or glossed over by Church apologists. He speculates on the reasons why the idea of the two children should have become so popular in early 15th century Italian art and studies traces of the theme in the work of such artists as Borgognone, Ferrari, Raphael and Leonardo da Vinci."


I am well aware that such information will have many heads spinning, so let me happily (and impishly) add to the confusion by stating that regardless of two Jesus children, there is never a question that there was/is only one Christ (that is never in question in any esoteric text or stream). (P.S. One of the Jesus children dies at the age of 12 in esoteric tradition).

Anyway, yet another example of too little 'knowledge' can be a dangerous thing. Mr Atwill is just not well-versed enough to know where-of he speaks, and he collars in the unwary and easily gulled.
 
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It's fascinating how scientific dispassion - and curiosity - goes out the window with this topic - at least here. [And how relentless the term 'religious' is used to paper over any discussion of Fair Psyche.]
 
I "Believe" this is due to shows like ancient aliens. or the "evolution of creationism" as i like to call it! :rolleyes::oops::eek::D:p:cool::confused::mad::(;):):rolleyes:
Harry, yer a funny dude! GOOD one... the "evolution of creationism," —THAT'S an instant classic! I might have to borrow that one (w/ credit, of course) :rolleyes::oops::eek::D:p:cool::confused::mad::(;):):rolleyes:
 
Could anyone elaborate? As I have only caught 'Ancient Aliens' at the odd moment - and it is usually background noise to whatever else is going on forward of the set - I am puzzled. What does 'Ancient Aliens' have to do with creationism? Not connecting the dots with this one.

I do get the drift that there is a sub-text belief system here and that certain topics - and ideas and words associated with those ideas for some - are dog whistles. All logic and reason seem to fly out the window. Discuss aliens - okay. Discuss history - not so okay. [The lack of historical perspective is notable in our society - more 'evil' is being fomented because people simply do not understand that their ideas have an historical lineage rather than emanate from some Abstract and Unwavering Truth.]

I will say that generally - from an historical perspective - whatever I have seen on the History Channel that makes an attempt to cast 'light' on anything esoteric does more obscuring and garbling than illuminating. It's a shame because the actual history of ideas is more fascinating than any conjured scenario. Being a 'sci-fi' fan from way-back (when being so was very un-cool - I have more than enough experience being outside the fold) I am intrigued by the allure of certain ideas and the dismissal of others.

Some argue fine points of (material) science with great finesse - and yet blithely assert absolutes in areas that can at best be a 'jury is out' situation. A lot of belief when it comes to the Psyche. And of course that's the point. The action of the human psyche is key here - to belief structures, to science, to 'religion' - to everything we see both materially created by humans and otherwise manifested by humans (culture, society).
 
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Could anyone elaborate? As I have only caught 'Ancient Aliens' at the odd moment - and it is usually background noise to whatever else is going on forward of the set - I am puzzled. What does 'Ancient Aliens' have to do with creationism? Not connecting the dots with this one.

I see similarities in the concept of "god" creating the earth (man included) and E.T visitors "seeding" the planet.
both of these concepts fly in the face of the theory of evolution.
Or at least they used to! the clever part is, that now evolution has been incorporated into the "myth". to be more specific "Ancient Aliens" fiddled with our DNA!

I have a big problem with the "media" trying to divide and belittle the human race, I truly believe that we have a common (terrestrial) ancestor and are only really different in our "Culture".

Sadly "history" is a vehicle that is often used by people with an axe to grind, and because it is passed, it can only be interpreted. What I am trying to say is that when I hear about a "chosen" race I switch off, because it reminds me of the terrible crimes that have been committed in the name of a "master" race.

There have been many other examples but the one that springs to mind is the "religion"/cult that was started by a man who's name rhymes with "Hell Wrong Cupboard"
He created his own creation myth, to suit his needs. And I believe that the history channel is doing the same thing, and that by doing so they have lead people to very dangerous waters, full of poison and hatred.

I find it amazing that some people do not see the link between financial strife and racism, as it has happened so many times in "history".
If I am totally honest it scares me, because I don't think people realise how easily they are mislead (myself included) and the fact that no matter how hard I try I can not fathom "who" is responsible for the current trend in racism I see on a daily basis.
It would be easy to say its the internets fault, but I do not see how that can be true because it is full of every kind of information good and bad, so something must compel people to look for the bad. Whatever or whoever this is, must in my opinion be very organised and have a incredibly sophisticated understanding of what makes us tick.

Sorry for rambling on,
Best wishes
 
Just to step back a bit. How can anyone prove someone truly existed? Difficult to prove someone truly existed from just a few hundred years ago, let alone a few millennia. If you are looking to ultimately use only literary references, which they are, proves absolutely nothing. Anything can be quilled to paper stating anything at all. A number of similar references to the same person would on the surface provide proof of the validity of the claim. It does not. Correlation does not prove causation. Causation in this case is that Jesus really existed. People with the same motive can make up the same story to reinforce their agenda (controlling your mind, actions, and purse strings). Flash forward two thousand years from now and our future selves could be having the same discussion on the proof and validity that Sherlock Holmes existed. I have read Holmes and never, no where, does he ever state that he is fiction. 221-B Baker street exists so he must be real...right. As commonly stated "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" No such evidence exists for the proof of zombie Jesus. Faith and wish fulfillment is not proof. Put no more belief in Christ as you do to Mr. Holmes.
 
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