Increasingly Unsure! ......

[Simonemendez]

Like with the 'E.T.H.', I have been trying to take a stand back from the 'Conspiracy!' stuff, and see if I can think about that subject in a totally sane way. I have seen first hand for myself, that very spook-y events, coverup-y occurrences, can be all too real. Just take a look at my own federal files I obtained from FOIA. I personally have believed that events like 9-11-01 and the JFK/MLK/RFK tragedies were highly mysterious inside jobs, to some extent. As I have been typing this, a question occurred to me. Is it outright kookoo to "beeleev", or can a skeptic of that stuff, say, "Yeah, there's a genuine mystery here, but lets not get carried away. (Yet). Like, after I read Schuyler's critique/review of someone (Ahem) in a different thread, I was saying to myself, "Oh my gawd, I can see how loony all the WorldConspiracy UfoCoverup stuff looks. I really can." I have my own sagas, but I don't wan't to be a tinfoil hat wearer either. All reactions to this new thread are WELCOME.

 

[CapnG]

My current take on most conspiratorial stuff is "Well... maybe". See, I came to realize that there's a bizarre correlation between conspiracy theory and reality that goes something like this: the more insane a conspiracy sounds, the less likely people are to believe it is true, therefore the more likely it is that it would actually work IF true. Just take a moment and think about that.

Fundamentally, I think we all want reality to make sense. We want things to be explainable and logical but at the same time we each have our own particular slant on what exactly "explainable and logical" means. The problem is we rarely have all the information we need to form a complete picture about whatever it is that we're looking at, so we have to fill in the gaps. That's where the conspiracy stuff comes in.

 

[Red]

Simone,
Personally, I think many of the conspiracy theories out there are smoke and mirrors to confuse the issue and make it harder for people to find the truth in the lies. I don't buy into the 9/11 stuff, but the timing was unusual so soon after Rumsfield's admission of billions of unaccounted dollars lost from the Pentagon budget.
And I don't know if I find the evidence for a conspiracy surrounding the death of MLK compelling in light of the historical context in which he lived. In the South, abuse and lynching of blacks was pretty widespread and I think that MLK was shot because an evil redneck got it in his head that it was his god-given right to commit violence against blacks.
I find it interesting that JFK and RFK were both assassinated, but I not prepared to buy entirely into any theory surrounding their deaths.
Then there was H.A.A.R.P. which turned out to actually exist. And I am inclined to believe that there is a shadow world in which certain defense contractors operate without any scrutiny and even less oversight.
People may be comforted in believing that the world would be better if it weren't for the shadowy cabal that is somehow pulling the strings, orchestrating murders, stockpiling technology and generally creating havoc behind the curtain. They don't realize the world would still have violence, pollution, war, corrupt politicians and generally the same problems even without the so-called shadowy cabal.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Schuyler]

They don't realize the world would still have violence, pollution, war, corrupt politicians and generally the same problems even without the so-called shadowy cabal. Just my 2 cents.

I love that point! lol. We don't need no steenking conspiracy! We're quite capable of fucking everything up ourselves with no extra help.

 

[Jose Collado]

I assume some conspiracy theories have a foundation in actual events or facts but the tinfoilers seem to blow things out of proportion. In my opinion, they aren't happy with logical and mundane explanations. They're eager to bloat things and make them bigger than they actually are. The foundations are soon forgotten or overshadowed by a more dramatic theories with more pizzaz and pyrotechnics for added effect. It's the whole chinese whispers syndrome.

Then there's conspiracy theories that are complete, utter bullshit perpetuated by delusional, paranoid individuals who won't accept responsibility for their choices in life and opt to blame shadow agencies/government.

 

[Xylo]

People may be comforted in believing that the world would be better if it weren't for the shadowy cabal that is somehow pulling the strings, orchestrating murders, stockpiling technology and generally creating havoc behind the curtain. They don't realize the world would still have violence, pollution, war, corrupt politicians and generally the same problems even without the so-called shadowy cabal.
Just my 2 cents.

As soon as a hole is created in that arena, it will be filled by someone else.

I agree with most of what you said there Red.

As far as conspiracy goes, I think it is a natural human reaction, call it inherent jealousy if you will, if someone else knows something (a "secret" perhaps) that you don't know. And when there is a group of people that know something that we don't know, we call it a conspiracy. There are many mysterious events in the last few hundred years or so that most of us really want to know the answers, or the whole truth about. I think it's okay to do some research and come up with some theories, as long as one doesn't believe that it's the only plausible/possible explanation.

 

[Red]

As soon as a hole is created in that arena, it will be filled by someone else.

I agree with most of what you said there Red.

As far as conspiracy goes, I think it is a natural human reaction, call it inherent jealousy if you will, if someone else knows something (a "secret" perhaps) that you don't know. And when there is a group of people that know something that we don't know, we call it a conspiracy. There are many mysterious events in the last few hundred years or so that most of us really want to know the answers, or the whole truth about. I think it's okay to do some research and come up with some theories, as long as one doesn't believe that it's the only plausible/possible explanation.

Perhaps not jealousy. I think humanity has a desire to understand the world around it; it needs to be able to put even the most unusual events in a framework of known experience and conspiracy theories help fill those gaps for some people, just as the hardcore skeptics fallback on the old swamp gas theory as a way to put strange events in a framework they are comfortable with. Perhaps early religions developed in the same manner; as a way to explain external events that fell outside of the physical experiential framework to provide meaning to a greater whole. I think many of us are uncomfortable with the idea of things that may be experienced but not understood and we look for explanations, even outrageous ones, to fill the gaps in our understanding.

 

[111uminate]

As far as conspiracy theories go, I've never been so glad I haven't made up my mind. The moment I do is the day I start to worry.

 

[Ron Collins]

I think it depends on the conspiracy, the sociopolitical climate at different stages of the conspiracy, the degree of compartmentalization, media cooperation (either overtly provided or covertly attained), and the subject matter. Enron, backdating stocks, Watergate, Clinton-Lewinski, etc., we know about these because the conspiracy failed. Remove one whistleblower from each situation and you have a successful conspiracy. So conceptually it is possible.

The problem is that many while technically possible are not reality plausible. The 911 thing in my opinion may be technically possible but certainly is not reality plausible. The fallout is far too public in a time where by and large the whistleblower is venerated and the government is vilified. Now, in the mid or late 40's directly after a war that was won with slogans like "loose lips sink ships", not so much. Given the sociopolitical climate in the 40's, tested and practiced compartmentalization of information, and (if you will allow some supposition) a subject matter like a crash of an alien craft one can certainly see that sort of conspiracy taking hold and mostly working. I kinda use the "Say it out loud" approach. If you can introduce the idea to a friend that is level headed and displays a good helping of common sense and he/she doesn't give you the "you been smoking again?" look, then you might look into it a bit. Just be mindful of the theory champions and their track record. I wouldn't be looking for a group of European scientists keeping a beautiful burned baby alien corps a secret save for showing it to a country doctor for instance.

 

[Schuyler]

​

OK, so I have to put some text in here or the message is 'too short.'

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Ten characters I think. And I've known some characters.

 

[Rick Deckard]

Stuff like this does bother me:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram#Satanism

But should it?

 

[Simonemendez]

I am in awe of how intelligent and educational that most of your reply posts have been. Many of your points are ---amazingly thoughtfull and thought provoking.
I would like to turn to the subject of --ridicule-- and conspiracy stuff. I was thinking about people who get carried away with paranoid theories, (which backfiring'ly damages their 'truth' agenda) And I wondered if they do that, because there is so much ridicule, starting with the Media, against counter-status quo questions. I look at what happened to Jim Garrison. I'm someone who has a good sense of humor, but I seeth with sheer hatred,-----against ridicule. It can be downright evil. I myself have ridiculed (what I referred to as) those 'reality investigative TV shows' but they have -proven- that they deserve such. I recall instances in my life, where someone did not believe what happened to me in the military, (-even though- I have all kinds of hard documentation) and it HURT. Though I should have said, "Thats your perogative, I know what happened to me."
Will I get ridiculed if I say that I believe ridicule is a powerfull and well used tool of evil conspirators?

 

[Rick Deckard]

Will I get ridiculed if I say that I believe ridicule is a powerfull and well used tool of evil conspirators?

There's something called 'the consensual reality' - if you want to keep stuff out of the consensual reality, then ridicule is just one of many tools at your disposal...as is disinformation, outright denial, lying, assassination, manipulation of public-facing organizations such as the mainstream media, bribery, false flag operations, distorting scientific endeavour by rewarding predetermined outcomes and punishing undesirable results...the list goes on.

 

[CapnG]

Will I get ridiculed if I say that I believe ridicule is a powerfull and well used tool of evil conspirators?

Not here I would expect. But ridicule is not solely the tool of the conspirators, it's the go-to defense mechanism for the common man as well, to be used the moment anything surfaces that attempts to crack their paradigm, be it conspiratorial thinking or the paranormal. As I said before, people like things to make sense and when you come along and offer up something that doesn't make sense to them, then they're going to react with either ridicule or anger. They have to because they're simply too busy living their lives to deal with anything outside their percieved notion of reality: head down, blinders on, face forward.

 

[Red]

Not here I would expect. But ridicule is not solely the tool of the conspirators, it's the go-to defense mechanism for the common man as well, to be used the moment anything surfaces that attempts to crack their paradigm, be it conspiratorial thinking or the paranormal. As I said before, people like things to make sense and when you come along and offer up something that doesn't make sense to them, then they're going to react with either ridicule or anger. They have to because they're simply too busy living their lives to deal with anything outside their percieved notion of reality: head down, blinders on, face forward.

I don't entirely disagree with you. Many people are at a loss when confronted with something that screws with their reality. However, ridicule is also used as a weapon by people to maintain a perception even when they know the perception is not completely true. And sometimes I think we use ridicule cause Chicky Greer and Hoagland have brought it on themselves.

 

[Rick Deckard]

And sometimes I think we use ridicule cause Chicky Greer and Hoagland have brought it on themselves.

I think in Greer's case, the ridicule has totally obliterated the small amount of credibility he had. After all, he did manage to organize a media event with some credible witnesses in 2001, but has since managed to undermine all of that with his wild claims of UFO contact, exo-politics shenanigans and the possession of ET-sourced zero-point energy systems which he has promised (and failed) to deliver year-on-year ever since.

 

[Red]

I think in Greer's case, the ridicule has totally obliterated the small amount of credibility he had. After all, he did manage to organize a media event with some credible witnesses in 2001, but has since managed to undermine all of that with his wild claims of UFO contact, exo-politics shenanigans and the possession of ET-sourced zero-point energy systems which he has promised (and failed) to deliver year-on-year ever since.

Greer obliterated his own credibility. The ridicule didn't do it; his own credulity made him a target of ridicule by people who no longer want him included in the conversation. And justifiably so.

 

[CapnG]

Greer represents a thrid option:

1) Ridicule used as a reflexive defense mechanismby the masses
2) Ridicule used as tool by the powers that be to dissuade investigation
3) Ridicule that is richly and thoroughly deserved, brought about by one's own incredulity

 

[Red]

Greer represents a thrid option:

1) Ridicule used as a reflexive defense mechanismby the masses
2) Ridicule used as tool by the powers that be to dissuade investigation
3) Ridicule that is richly and thoroughly deserved, brought about by one's own incredulity

Exactly!!!!