John Greenwald (Black Vault) - Paracast Interview - Patriotism

[The Hawk]

He's a cool guy, ok.
But I so disdain this phony notion of "patriotism" he put forth..
.. which is similar to many people's concept of what it means to be a patriot.
Something akin to the notion that you give into government and believe in the greater good of our government.

I don't care about the Neo Con's definition of patriotism.
I don't care about Hitler's definition of patriotism.
All one has to do is read what the great founders of this nation said about patriotism like Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Ben Franklin..
At the core patriotism can be said to be care for the American people, it is working toward a government for the people and dissent against oppressive government.

Then of course there's the Champion of the Constitution Dr. Ron Paul:
On Patriotism - by Ron Paul

IF ONLY more people in our military and government weren't brainwashed fascist cowards with false notions of so called "Democracy" and "patriotism" there would be a lot less secrecy in government.

A major role of a government for the people and by the people is to protect the privacy of it's people and not the secrecy of government. Translucent government founded in truth and justice is essential to a free republic. They have NO right to keep such a profound overarching subject as alien visitation secret and they especially do not have the right to lie about it; understand that. Those who work within the system or anyone who aids them is encroaching on treason. Your duty is to the people, you are a servant of the people remember it, please. I understand there are reasons of national security which are valid reasons for keeping secrets but really think about it, how much do they really, really need to keep secret for ethical reasons? Very little.

I'm not speaking to anyone in particular but those who would define patriotism in an ignorant manner.

 

[CapnG]

I think patriotism, like morality relies more on personal definition than an overreaching archetype. I would argue that secrecy is essential in order to defend one's nation, serve the public good and maintian order. The degree of that secrecy is, I think the key issue, not the secrecy itself. To demand that all secrets should be laid bare is to assume that a) the general populace is intelligent and mature enough to handle the information and b) no one's going to use that information against you. Neither of those assumptions is true. The plain fact of the matter is people are sheep who, given the choice, will believe any comfortable lie over a disturbing truth.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble a little bit now (need more coffee). The point is the concept of patriotism shouldn't even come into this debate. Patriotism is limited to one's homeland, this is a global phenomenon.

 

[BrandonD]

I think patriotism, like morality relies more on personal definition than an overreaching archetype. I would argue that secrecy is essential in order to defend one's nation, serve the public good and maintian order. The degree of that secrecy is, I think the key issue, not the secrecy itself. To demand that all secrets should be laid bare is to assume that a) the general populace is intelligent and mature enough to handle the information and b) no one's going to use that information against you. Neither of those assumptions is true. The plain fact of the matter is people are sheep who, given the choice, will believe any comfortable lie over a disturbing truth.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble a little bit now (need more coffee). The point is the concept of patriotism shouldn't even come into this debate. Patriotism is limited to one's homeland, this is a global phenomenon.

Sorry, but it is not up to individuals in the government to determine what the childish masses are "intelligent and mature enough to handle". You seem to have the commonly held opinion that those in the ruling class are in some way "superior" to the average man, and have the right to decide what should be known and not known. This idea is supported by absolutely nothing, but it serves the ruling class quite well.

You are correct in one thing, secrecy is essential in order to maintain one's nation. Missiles are also essential. But when one realizes that the formation of "nations" is in itself inherently negative, it becomes clearer as to why government secrecy is negative.

 

[CapnG]

Sorry, but it is not up to individuals in the government to determine what the childish masses are "intelligent and mature enough to handle".

Yes it is. We specifically elect them to make and pass laws, supposedly to serve our needs and thus we voluntarily give our power of decision over to them. We even pay them to manage us. You are familiar with the concept of "governance", right?

You seem to have the commonly held opinion that those in the ruling class are in some way "superior" to the average man, and have the right to decide what should be known and not known. This idea is supported by absolutely nothing, but it serves the ruling class quite well.

Firstly, I in no way consider the ruling class superior and have no understanding as to how you reached that conclusion save through your own biases. They are people, same as us. THEY may think they're more important than us "commoners" but I don't. Make no mistake, my comments regarding the general populace INCLUDES politicians. As to their right to decide what we know and don't know, see above. My support for this is simple observation. Humans are herd animals. Watch any large group of people engaged in any singular activity, it's all fairly obvious.

But when one realizes that the formation of "nations" is in itself inherently negative, it becomes clearer as to why government secrecy is negative.

That's as maybe but it's not going away any time soon.

 

[The Hawk]

The chance that the people in control of the alien subject are "elected" officials is slim to none. Though every once and awhile something probably seeps out to individuals like Dick Cheney for example. Individuals they know they can trust to not give a crap what the public thinks.

 

[Rick Deckard]

The chance that the people in control of the alien subject are "elected" officials is slim to none. Though every once and awhile something probably seeps out to individuals like Dick Cheney for example. Individuals they know they can trust to not give a crap what the public thinks.

I have to agree with Hawk - the Governments of this world are nothing more than a public-relations exercise. The 'people' in charge are the big businesses who sponsor, support and promote their representatives into office. Once there, they pull the strings necessary to manipulate policy for the good of the few rather than the good of the many.