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Just a little theory

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dyingsun

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
I wonder, has anyone in the UFO field ever thought or written about that humanity might just be as technologically enigmatic to 'whatever' it is we seem to be interacting with ? For example, and just going from an ETH point of view now, these beings might be technologically advanced way beyond us from what we 'see' and guess, but how about they have never dabbled in Atomic and Molecular Physics and use a completely different paradigm of 'physical laws'.Wouldn't they be as much interested in nuclear power and atom bombs they never discovered themselves, as highly advanced from our point of view they might be, as we are in the things we see 'them' doing ? In short, might it be possible we became interesting because we invented something they never even thought of and they are trying to get a grasp on it? (whoever/whatever 'they' are)
 
Interesting idea. I do get tired of people blithely proclaiming that the Alien Guys(tm) are many thousands of years advanced from us that we are like ants or amoebas compared to them. Well, what if we're not? If the idea of Vernor Vinge's 'Singularity' is true, they may be only a hundred years 'more' advanced than us. We simply don't know. It may be that they just got lucky and got anti-grav by chance, but are no more advanced sociologically than we are, or even less.

But all that begs the question of the direction of their civilization. On the one hand I think if the laws of physics are the same for all of us, they would have had to discover the molecular structure, figure out and harness electricity, and move from a Newtonian view of the Universe to a quantum mechanical view. I think that is very likely.

But insofar as discoveries are somewhat accidental, their civilization may have gone through an entirely different history. Was it Bruce Sterling who wrote a book about the computer being invented accidentally a few hundred years early? That would have changed our history entirely. What if their 'planet' did not have petroleum? They may never have gone through an internal combustion energy phase. Their transportation systems would be entirely different. What if we had discovered zero point energy and anti-gravity about 1900? What if they never had hops and could never have tasted ein Bitt?

And then there's the physical differences. If they did not have a sense of smell like we do their cuisine would have to be far different. If their vision were different than ours, they could be seeing a far different spectrum than we do. Given their reportedly large eyes, one could deduce that for some reason they needed to absorb more light.

So from an anthropological perspective, we'd be very interesting to each other, both from a technological and a physical perspective.
 
dyingsun said:
I wonder, has anyone in the UFO field ever thought or written about that humanity might just be as technologically enigmatic to 'whatever' it is we seem to be interacting with ? For example, and just going from an ETH point of view now, these beings might be technologically advanced way beyond us from what we 'see' and guess, but how about they have never dabbled in Atomic and Molecular Physics and use a completely different paradigm of 'physical laws'.Wouldn't they be as much interested in nuclear power and atom bombs they never discovered themselves, as highly advanced from our point of view they might be, as we are in the things we see 'them' doing ? In short, might it be possible we became interesting because we invented something they never even thought of and they are trying to get a grasp on it? (whoever/whatever 'they' are)
Click to expand...

Maybe that is why they don't make contact with us - they would then contaminate the subject by introducing their own 'paradigms', thus changing our own paradigms.
 
It seems clear to me that UFO's are more interested in weapons and energy research than anything else our civilization occupies its time with.

A compelling case has been made by several researchers that have sought to uncover UFO surveillance of nuclear weapons storage bases, detonation testing, and power systems. This was very apparent during the late '40's through the 60's at bases like Roswell AAF, Malmstrom, Minot, and the FDR: America's first nuclear powered air craft carrier which experienced several dramatic UFO sightings during Operation Mainbrace in 1952. Any advanced civilization that cares about it's own survival would be inclined to develop technologies supporting early warning systems designed to detect burst emissions of X-rays or gamma rays.

I agree with many of the big brains in physics that are steadfast in their assertion that the laws of general relativity and quantum mechanics are immutable in our universe, although may be completely different in a parallel universe if such things were proven to exist. This does not exclude the possibility of looking at these same laws in different ways or making new discoveries that result in substantial advances.

I don't mean to be cynical to dyingsun's point but I feel that much of what we do today with physics and chemistry is probably old school to most UFO engineers. As far as sociologically and culturally, they could easily be light years behind us.
 
Unky, I see where you are coming from, but can we apply our scientific view of things to them ? Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but how can we apply our understanding of physics and the universe per se to them (and I recognize thats our only point to make some sense of it scientifically), 'they' might and most probably will have quite different laws and ideas of physics as is.We can only match what we see with our understanding, but what if their understanding is so utterly 'Alien' that it doesn't match our grasp of things? And in context, how about our ape race baffles them with something they never ever thought of? It is somewhat of a moot point, but still something to ponder in my opinion. 'We baffle ET' ;-D ?
 
Hoo boy, here we go. I get into this debate with my girlfriend every time we have a few drinks. This is when the guy that believes in UFO's gets accused of being "scientifically rigid"

I'm in no way suggesting that the laws of physics as they are accepted by human science is all there is. I wish more scientists were open to the possibility of change. If one believes they have found evidence or observed a situation that violates our known laws, that person better have enough evidence, data, and mathematics to plug up the Hoover Dam before they are entitled to receive their Nobel Prize. Having said that, physicists and astronomers have been trying for decades to find examples in the cosmos where the laws of general relativity break down. This would mean redefining every thing we know.

The only notable example I can raise is when Hawking came up with the information paradox as it relates to black holes which violates the first law of thermodynamics and quantum physics. Many of the authorities in theoretical physics were so troubled by this idea that some put there careers on hold to try and solve the problem. It wasn't until Leonard Susskind was able to effectively debunk the information paradox as erroneous by showing that it was an illusion created by our restricted ability to observe the problem. Some years later Hawking relented not by admitting he was wrong, but by diving into a whole other mess of unprovable conjecture that I won't get into.

So try not to think of the laws themselves as being wrong but more our understanding of these laws is really what changes and evolves through discovery. Scientists agree that Einstein's work was more of a "refinement" of Newtonian Physics rather than proving him wrong. Aliens may have found interesting ways to circumvent our laws of physics without actually violating them. A good example of this would be traveling vast distances using worm holes versus traveling in a linear mode faster than the speed of light (an unpopular idea with physicists). This idea was considered ludicrous in the '70's but now receives due credence because the theoretical equations that account for the possibility are stable.

If alien physics transcends our understanding of the laws as we know them, it doesn't mean much to us unless we develop the capability to understand and process these differences.
 
Unky said:
Hoo boy, here we go. I get into this debate with my girlfriend every time we have a few drinks. This is when the guy that believes in UFO's gets accused of being "scientifically rigid"

I'm in no way suggesting that the laws of physics as they are accepted by human science is all there is. I wish more scientists were open to the possibility of change. If one believes they have found evidence or observed a situation that violates our known laws, that person better have enough evidence, data, and mathematics to plug up the Hoover Dam before they are entitled to receive their Nobel Prize. Having said that, physicists and astronomers have been trying for decades to find examples in the cosmos where the laws of general relativity break down. This would mean redefining every thing we know.

The only notable example I can raise is when Hawking came up with the information paradox as it relates to black holes which violates the first law of thermodynamics and quantum physics. Many of the authorities in theoretical physics were so troubled by this idea that some put there careers on hold to try and solve the problem. It wasn't until Bruce Schneier was able to effectively debunk the information paradox as erroneous by effectively showing that it was an illusion created our restricted ability to observe the problem. Some years later Hawking relented.

So try not to think of the laws themselves as being wrong but more our understanding of these laws is really what changes and evolves through discovery. Scientists agree that Einstein's work was more of a "refinement" of Newtonian Physics rather than proving him wrong. Aliens may have found interesting ways to circumvent our laws of physics without actually violating them. A good example of this would be traveling vast distances using worm holes versus traveling in a linear mode faster than the speed of light (an unpopular idea with physicists). This idea was considered ludicrous in the '70's but now receives due credence because the theoretical equations that account for the possibility are stable.

If alien physics transcends our understanding of the laws as we know them, it doesn't mean much to us unless we develop the capability to understand and process these differences.
Click to expand...

Thank you Unky, 'If alien physics transcends our understanding of the laws as we know them, it doesn't mean much to us unless we develop the capability to understand and process these differences.' is exactly where I'm coming from.
By now, I honestly find it rather pretentious that we measure these sightings/phenomena with our understanding of physics or technology.Sure, its the only reference point we have, but I still don't get the notion or idea to say/propose that our understanding applies in any way to what is happening.I think its a given that we apply our knowlegde to the phenomena.It's all we can do at this point, sure, but as said, what if 'their' technology/being is so utterly different that we can't even grasp the concept of it ? Also, why couldn't it be the other way around and they are fascinated by what we do with atoms? I know its an unfounded hypothesis, but I think its worth pondering .
 
dyingsun said:
I wonder, has anyone in the UFO field ever thought or written about that humanity might just be as technologically enigmatic to 'whatever' it is we seem to be interacting with ? For example, and just going from an ETH point of view now, these beings might be technologically advanced way beyond us from what we 'see' and guess, but how about they have never dabbled in Atomic and Molecular Physics and use a completely different paradigm of 'physical laws'.Wouldn't they be as much interested in nuclear power and atom bombs they never discovered themselves, as highly advanced from our point of view they might be, as we are in the things we see 'them' doing ? In short, might it be possible we became interesting because we invented something they never even thought of and they are trying to get a grasp on it? (whoever/whatever 'they' are)
Click to expand...

I've had similar thoughts myself.

Technological progress is not some linear ladder that moves forward always at the same rate and in the same direction. It's more like a web of serendipity guided partly by chance and partly by economic factors. It's more like evolution in that respect.

You can see this clearly in the 20th century. In the first half of the 20th century there was astounding breakneck advances in energy, propulsion, and transportation. In only 50 years we electrified much of the world and went from horses to cars, airplanes, and rockets. Then this innovation dramatically stagnated. The stagnation really started in the early 60s... we really went to the moon with polished and perfected 1940s-50s technology.

Today when we fly commercial airliners we're basically using 1950s technology jazzed up with modern computers and control systems. There might be some super-advanced stuff in secret, but I am actually a little skeptical of this. A lot of the fabulous stories of what "they" have in secret are a mix of psy-ops to convince the enemy that we're more advanced than we really are and defense/government contractor marketing efforts to put a lot of lipstick on a lot of pigs.

Meanwhile around the same time that transportation, energy, and propulsion totally stagnated we had this amazing explosion of telecommunications, computer, and information processing/storage technology. This explosion is still going on, though really fundamental innovation in these areas started to slow in the 80s.

A similar biotech explosion started in the 70s-80s and is still underway.

There may be whole areas however that have simply never gotten any "love" for whatever reason. Institutional politics within science and economic demand from outside of science/engineering can elevate one field to popularity while marginalizing others.

It is very likely that an ET race (or ED, etc.) may be far in advance of us in some areas and less advanced in others. It's quite possible that they (assuming "they" are here) have... say... mastered the manipulation of energy to a far greater degree than us and yet are controlling these systems with the equivalent of late 70s computer technology.
 
Interesting thought well UFOs is not something that just arrived yesterday. UFOs have been around since early recorded history. I'm of the believe there is some interest in our planet and what goes on. Nukes and the develop of the atom probably falls neatly into that that interest. The UFO occupants are probably around longer on the planet then we are. We can not prove this is the case. In the end we could be the aliens to them.If they are since before us, they might have a keen interest to maintain the planet as it is. Nukes and the use of nukes might be a no'no for them. We used them and test them and they are probably are giving a message stop what you are doing. We are very war like race and if the push came. We are capable of using them again in greater numbers. We do not own the planet. We are just a race that occupies it.

Obviously higher technology in Aviation and ability to appear suddenly with no visible means of how they achieved that. As to other areas of ability and achievement and how there society or societies function day to day. Well that is the real question behind the enigma.
 
Hi everyone,

Newbie here, though I've been listening to the Paracast for a long time and have had a lifelong interest in the UFO subject and some odd personal experiences...

Over the years I've had an increasing sense that technology is not at all the focus of the UFO phenomenon - i.e., that the apparently "superior" technology of "Whatever They Are" is merely a peripheral aspect to what is going on.

As such, it may be reasonable to speculate that any concept of "technological superiority" is irrelevant, or at least subservient, to the truth behind the phenomenon.

I agree that the OP, dyingsun, poses an interesting question. I'd maybe put it another way though: We may be guilty, in our current technologically-oriented cultural haze, of believing that this strange interaction with some sort of "Other" can be understood in technological terms, in the sense that "They" are more scientifically advanced than "We" are. It reminds me of Medieval monks who believed that un-earthly visitations were proof that humans were inferior to "angelic beings." Indeed, the very concept of Superior/Inferior may be a human construct unique to us.

The reality of the phenomenon is probably far, far stranger than we can currently understand. I don't think it involves technology directly. What I do think is not yet well-developed but could be fodder for future discussions though! :)
 
Schuyler said:
Interesting idea. I do get tired of people blithely proclaiming that the Alien Guys(tm) are many thousands of years advanced from us that we are like ants or amoebas compared to them. Well, what if we're not? If the idea of Vernor Vinge's 'Singularity' is true, they may be only a hundred years 'more' advanced than us. We simply don't know. It may be that they just got lucky and got anti-grav by chance, but are no more advanced sociologically than we are, or even less.

But all that begs the question of the direction of their civilization. On the one hand I think if the laws of physics are the same for all of us, they would have had to discover the molecular structure, figure out and harness electricity, and move from a Newtonian view of the Universe to a quantum mechanical view. I think that is very likely.

But insofar as discoveries are somewhat accidental, their civilization may have gone through an entirely different history. Was it Bruce Sterling who wrote a book about the computer being invented accidentally a few hundred years early? That would have changed our history entirely. What if their 'planet' did not have petroleum? They may never have gone through an internal combustion energy phase. Their transportation systems would be entirely different. What if we had discovered zero point energy and anti-gravity about 1900? What if they never had hops and could never have tasted ein Bitt?

And then there's the physical differences. If they did not have a sense of smell like we do their cuisine would have to be far different. If their vision were different than ours, they could be seeing a far different spectrum than we do. Given their reportedly large eyes, one could deduce that for some reason they needed to absorb more light.

So from an anthropological perspective, we'd be very interesting to each other, both from a technological and a physical perspective.
Click to expand...
What if............ They don't do science, but use Magick instead? We have Einstein and Enrico Fermi, and they have Mother Goose?
 
Interesting theory for sure. Perhaps they aren't trying to prevent us from using nuclear weapons, they are just investigating what they are.

/shrug, technically, they could also just be animals. And perhaps the crafts are actual lifeforms themselves... :confused:
 
Thank you for the comments and ideas all, it seems like all we can do in this field is taking a shot in the dark which makes this whole field highly interesting and utterly frustrating at the same time.
What I really like about the paracast and these forums is that 'thinking outside the box' is welcomed and even encouraged (my feeling at least) here and that pondering sometimes strange ideas if they are at least a bit tangible in a peer review kind of way are discussed in a meaningful way if they don't ring 'our' bs detector right away.
So, thanks Gene & Dave for offering this service to us and thanks to all members for making this the best 'paranormal' forum out there that doesn't make you cringe right after browsing through the thread titles..

Cailean, Magick, interesting you brought this up... I won't say too much, but I am a member of an 'occult' order over here in germany.

Northernsoul, for all we know they could be, I think the video of the light spheres coming from that 'odd' shaped thing taped in Mexico earlier this year makes for an intruiging case for that theory (ignore the beginning with Maussan if you haven't seen it before ;) ).

Also, welcome Escherman, hope you enjoy your stay here :)
 
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