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Kelvin's conundrum: Is it possible to believe in God and science?
- Thread starter Han
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ManitobaCanuk
Paranormal Maven
No you can not believe in both. Either you run your life by using reason and logic or you do not. If you use reason and logic to evaluate the world the whole concept of a God is no more real than Scooby-Doo is. ZERO evidence exists for the existence of any religions super friends. If you use faith and emotion to evaluate your world, you are a easily controllable by who ever can illicit the right emotion in you. You are prime pickings for manipulation. Faith is not a virtue but a mental aberration. Blind faith in religion has killed more people than cancer, world wars, and car accidents combined. The true evil in the world is caused by the faithful and their inability to discern what is real and what is fantasy. Just remember that just because you have a feeling it does not make it real or a real reflection of the world.
To make sure that my blasphemy is thoroughly expressed. I hereby state my opinion that the notion of a god is a basic superstition. There is no evidence or the existence of any god(s). Devils, demons, angels and saints are myths. There is no life after death, heaven nor hell. The pope is a dangerous, bigoted, medieval dinosaur. The Holy Ghost is a comic-book character worthy of laughter and derision. I accuse the Christian god of mass and continuing murder by allowing the Holocaust and all the other holocausts to date to take place - not to mention the ethnic cleansing presently being performed by Christians in our world. I condemn and vilify this mythical deity for encouraging racial prejudice and commanding the degradation of women.
Now that I just pissed off a huge portion of you fellow readers...GO!
To make sure that my blasphemy is thoroughly expressed. I hereby state my opinion that the notion of a god is a basic superstition. There is no evidence or the existence of any god(s). Devils, demons, angels and saints are myths. There is no life after death, heaven nor hell. The pope is a dangerous, bigoted, medieval dinosaur. The Holy Ghost is a comic-book character worthy of laughter and derision. I accuse the Christian god of mass and continuing murder by allowing the Holocaust and all the other holocausts to date to take place - not to mention the ethnic cleansing presently being performed by Christians in our world. I condemn and vilify this mythical deity for encouraging racial prejudice and commanding the degradation of women.
Now that I just pissed off a huge portion of you fellow readers...GO!
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exo_doc
Foolish Earthling
It depends on what or who you think God(S) is/are.
A conscious universe could fit the definition of a God, but wouldn't necessarily disrupt known science.
Humans are not omniscient and all-knowing. For all we really know there are higher beings or more advanced in evolution than we are that would be Gods to us.
It's an open ended question.
A conscious universe could fit the definition of a God, but wouldn't necessarily disrupt known science.
Humans are not omniscient and all-knowing. For all we really know there are higher beings or more advanced in evolution than we are that would be Gods to us.
It's an open ended question.
ManitobaCanuk
Paranormal Maven
I was really just referencing the Judeo-Christian God. Other life forms that are sufficiently advanced could possible appear to be Gods to us, but they would not be Gods. They would just be more advanced form of some evolutionary path. May appear Godlike but that would be a limitation of our perception not an expression of their omnipotence. Magic does not exist, everything is explainable. Not everything is understood...YET. But in no situation does "God" or the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" answer anything. Peace.
Wade
FeralNormal master
I'll ditto exo-docs sentiments above BUT if one of these more highly advanced races did appear to us and spoke of a creator type being or spoke about their desire to ascend to an even higher level , what then?
Either they are also susceptible to myths, and there is room for both science and God in a society or they're is something really "there" or they would want us...for whatever reason...to hold on to these superstitions maybe as a control system. Perhaps it was these buggers that put that bee in our bonnet in the first place thousands of years ago.
Or I suppose one could argue that such a race would never condescend to having a faith in something that has yet to show itself.
It's a funny thing about faith, there are those who take issue with such a concept but if you stop to think about it, having a belief in something or a faith that it exists...though unseen...is what.drives mankind to make further jumps in science (also the math works out) If wonder if someone could come up with a mathematical formula that a God like being could exist would universities provide the funding to furthur the research ?
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ManitobaCanuk
Paranormal Maven
No funding would ever be provided (even if such a thing could be derived). It would be like deriving an equation for the color of happiness. Nonsensical. Not all questions (especially some of the "Why" ones) are logically valid.
My high school physics teacher (the man that single-handedly turned me onto science and physics esp.) was always up front about his Christian beliefs. He used to hand out pocket bibles from the Gideon society to new kids (Gideon are the lot that put bibles in hotel rooms).
I met up with this teacher 20years after high school and went for a beer with him. A great teacher and a really nice guy. Even at school I felt he was my friend more than teacher - helped no doubt by the fact that I was a star student in his class!
I completely disagree with his religious beliefs but totally respect that he was up front about it and would even talk about the seeming contradiction.
Pygar2
Paranormal Maven
I don't see that the atheist's complete lack of hard proof as to God's nonexistence is any stronger than the theist's complete lack of hard proof etc. etc.
It's the old "Barbell Equation": 0=0
The difference is that if there *is* a God, behaving morally matters. If there isn't, *nothing* does. There is no risk involved in faith and good behavior- but there certainly is in living down to your lowest impulses. If the human race ever suddenly got *proof* that nothing matters, there would be a Saturnalia of destruction and the end of all hope of civilization. If there ever were proof that there is a God, the worst aftereffect... is people would be trying to live better lives.
It's the old "Barbell Equation": 0=0
The difference is that if there *is* a God, behaving morally matters. If there isn't, *nothing* does. There is no risk involved in faith and good behavior- but there certainly is in living down to your lowest impulses. If the human race ever suddenly got *proof* that nothing matters, there would be a Saturnalia of destruction and the end of all hope of civilization. If there ever were proof that there is a God, the worst aftereffect... is people would be trying to live better lives.
ManitobaCanuk
Paranormal Maven
Pygar2 why do you think that people need a celestial prison warden to behave. Do you really think that without the fear of a God anarchy would arise. Yeah all those Buddhists are hell raisers 
I am a firm believer that faith in a God creates anarchy and division. The religious believers do most of all the heinous shit you see on the news everyday. The idea that the fear of God makes a difference in peoples behaviors is short sighted, if anything it makes people more evil. They delude themselves to think their God is behind them in whatever monstrous action they are planning to do. If there was only 1 faith, one idea of what the alleged divine creator is, then maybe, just maybe, we would have some semblance of peace. But there are hundreds of different beliefs that all believe they are the one true faith. The world would not collapse if their was no faithful believers of a deity, actually the opposite. When religion disappears and it will, it is at that point that humankind will have a chance to thrive. Until then we live in this superstitious insane planet of warring ideologies and rival super friends. Peace.
I am a firm believer that faith in a God creates anarchy and division. The religious believers do most of all the heinous shit you see on the news everyday. The idea that the fear of God makes a difference in peoples behaviors is short sighted, if anything it makes people more evil. They delude themselves to think their God is behind them in whatever monstrous action they are planning to do. If there was only 1 faith, one idea of what the alleged divine creator is, then maybe, just maybe, we would have some semblance of peace. But there are hundreds of different beliefs that all believe they are the one true faith. The world would not collapse if their was no faithful believers of a deity, actually the opposite. When religion disappears and it will, it is at that point that humankind will have a chance to thrive. Until then we live in this superstitious insane planet of warring ideologies and rival super friends. Peace.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Pygar2,
Not so. "Proof" of nonexistence is not what is required. No one bears the burden of having to prove the nonexistence of anyone's particular god. If that were true you couldn't believe in whatever god you have (if you have one) until you had proven the nonexistence of all the others. To date I have yet to meet a believer who has attempted such a thing.
Your insistence that good behavior can only be the result of threat of eternal punishment or reward is demonstrably incorrect, incredibly sad, and more than a little disturbing. Threats and promises from supernatural beings aren't needed for moral behavior, only healthy human empathy is required.
Not so. "Proof" of nonexistence is not what is required. No one bears the burden of having to prove the nonexistence of anyone's particular god. If that were true you couldn't believe in whatever god you have (if you have one) until you had proven the nonexistence of all the others. To date I have yet to meet a believer who has attempted such a thing.
Your insistence that good behavior can only be the result of threat of eternal punishment or reward is demonstrably incorrect, incredibly sad, and more than a little disturbing. Threats and promises from supernatural beings aren't needed for moral behavior, only healthy human empathy is required.
Yip - I agree Trained. I find it pathetic that anyone would need a god or threat of hell to prod them into being decent people. Funny thing is, I find most atheists/humanist type people are invariably pretty good where as a large proportion of religious people wish harm on those of other faiths!
Funny eh?
Funny eh?
Pygar2
Paranormal Maven
Where did I say anything about punishment or reward? *Mattering* is what I said. Mattering carries a dignity with it. If nothing matters, why get worked up about crime, poverty, war, this thread? Just "go for it", and get your cut, right? But if we, and the world, matter... then there is a call to improve both. To paraphrase my favorite Bogart film, "Nature is what we were put here to rise above!" Atheists are restrained only by their fear of their proposed victims (never know who will turn out to be armed!) and judicial system.
As far as atheists/religious misdeeds go, I'll simply repeat what I have said before; atheists have killed more in the last hundred years than religion has, *ever*.
And the idea that Buddhism is a form of atheism? With respect, you might wish to rethink that. Look up the term "devas", for starters. And clearly Buddha himself is not considered to be a mere ordinary human. Buddhism is a religion, and the peacefulness of its followers should be compared with, for example, the butchery of the Soviet and Chinese atheists.
Oh, nearly forgot- the belief that God created the universe is no less positive an assertion than the belief that the universe created itself; if I had phrased this earlier, in this fashion, I would not have appeared to step over the "positive assertion/positive proof" line. In its way, the "nothingness magically became somethingness" is no more bizarre than the God some rather childishly call "Sky Daddy" or "Super Friend". Somewhere around the time people notice that prayer is not a bubble gum machine for rewards, and that God is often more than willing to see us harm one another, some people get resentful, and some even react by pretending this is proof there is *no* God. I wish I could give every one of them a copy of "Bruce Almighty", and the wit to read between the lines...
As far as atheists/religious misdeeds go, I'll simply repeat what I have said before; atheists have killed more in the last hundred years than religion has, *ever*.
And the idea that Buddhism is a form of atheism? With respect, you might wish to rethink that. Look up the term "devas", for starters. And clearly Buddha himself is not considered to be a mere ordinary human. Buddhism is a religion, and the peacefulness of its followers should be compared with, for example, the butchery of the Soviet and Chinese atheists.
Oh, nearly forgot- the belief that God created the universe is no less positive an assertion than the belief that the universe created itself; if I had phrased this earlier, in this fashion, I would not have appeared to step over the "positive assertion/positive proof" line. In its way, the "nothingness magically became somethingness" is no more bizarre than the God some rather childishly call "Sky Daddy" or "Super Friend". Somewhere around the time people notice that prayer is not a bubble gum machine for rewards, and that God is often more than willing to see us harm one another, some people get resentful, and some even react by pretending this is proof there is *no* God. I wish I could give every one of them a copy of "Bruce Almighty", and the wit to read between the lines...
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ManitobaCanuk
Paranormal Maven
How do reason out that atheists have killed more than the religious? What criteria and examples do you have? Because that is a patently verifiable falsehood. You just have to know history and watch the news to see the polar opposite of your assertion. Now before you bring out the "well Hitler was an atheist" argument, do some real research instead of just parroting rhetoric. Hitler was never an atheist, he wrote extensively over his life of his beliefs.
What verifiable atheists have a higher body count than:
Buddhist Burma
Thuggee Murders
Mountain Meadows Massacre
The Inquisition
The Witch Hunts
Roman Persecution of Christians
Aztec Human Sacrifice
Islamic Jihads
9/11
War on Terror - All those poor dead American soldiers
This is just a FEW... I could keep going but what's the point. Peace
What verifiable atheists have a higher body count than:
Buddhist Burma
Thuggee Murders
Mountain Meadows Massacre
The Inquisition
The Witch Hunts
Roman Persecution of Christians
Aztec Human Sacrifice
Islamic Jihads
9/11
War on Terror - All those poor dead American soldiers
This is just a FEW... I could keep going but what's the point. Peace
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Ezechiel
Paranormal Adept
Would a scientist triggering an artificial life-bearing universe via some wild experiment (brane collision, LHC collider black holes... ) qualify as a god ?
Could this universe (among many universes) have been created by one judgmental sadistic scientist (as documented by scripture) ? lol
... is a conscious creator (on a cosmic scale) a god ? if so, who or what process instantiated that creator ?
If we are to speculate about some kind of God (conscious creator). Ultimately it may be the expression of infinite complexity operating at the muti-verse scale... a natural component that has always been there by default and is a requirement for existence. Nothingness has no requirements.
Existence at the limit of complexity could be some form of conscience and may support the existence of all the other universes... welcome to the matrix.
In our universe, sentient beings could be ultimate expression of complexity from the transformation of energy into matter with time. Sentient beings are gods of the material world where an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent entity is really the framework enabling material worlds
To be or not to be.
Could this universe (among many universes) have been created by one judgmental sadistic scientist (as documented by scripture) ? lol
... is a conscious creator (on a cosmic scale) a god ? if so, who or what process instantiated that creator ?
If we are to speculate about some kind of God (conscious creator). Ultimately it may be the expression of infinite complexity operating at the muti-verse scale... a natural component that has always been there by default and is a requirement for existence. Nothingness has no requirements.
Existence at the limit of complexity could be some form of conscience and may support the existence of all the other universes... welcome to the matrix.
In our universe, sentient beings could be ultimate expression of complexity from the transformation of energy into matter with time. Sentient beings are gods of the material world where an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent entity is really the framework enabling material worlds
To be or not to be.
ManitobaCanuk
Paranormal Maven
Damn good questions Ezechiel. But I would think the entity that created the matrix was not god but just a higher form of evolution. No magic involved, just possibly high technology. Peace
Ezechiel
Paranormal Adept
The matrix could qualify as a sentient being in our physical universe... the matrix is just an extension of humans. Maybe our replacement lol.
Its another story outside our universe (if we consider multiverses), at that scale the limits of the expression of complexity are tested and maybe you could find a natural conscience operating at that level by default.
If God created the Universe, then who or what created God and in what did God exist before he made stuff to exist in?
Ezechiel
Paranormal Adept
If God created the Universe, then who or what created God and in what did God exist before he made stuff to exist in?
There is no 'who or what created god' ... it may simply be the framework that supports what you perceive as reality. There is no before or after... eternity I guess. Whether infinite complexity translates into a form of consciousness at a scale beyond our universe is debatable.
Humans are a good example of the expression of the evolution of complexity through evolution on this planet. However a framework of infinite complexity was required to enable that evolution.
Existence has infinitely complex requirements.... thus I could assume that the expression of that complexity outside our universe could be a form of a consciousness (or many ?).
If existence is the opposite of nothingness then existence requires the entire scale from simple matter to infinitely complex configurations... whose ultimate expression could be a conscience or not
If there was a beginning to the existential framework, infinite complexity was built in ... by default. Or else the construct wouldn't hold.
Pygar2
Paranormal Maven
All statistical noise in comparison to the dozens of millions killed in Russia and China. Remember, starvation is *also* murder when the government causes it- and a particularly nasty form of it, at that. And pogroms and working people to death can be added to the count, too. If nothing means anything, why *not* steal a village's winter food supply at gunpoint? If nothing means anything, why *not* stick dissidents in Siberian salt or uranium mines? "Stalin" would probably be a good place to start Wikipedia research- although as always, Wikipedia is a good place to start and a poor place to stop...
S