Liberty and Tyranny My reactions thus far

[Ron Collins]

So a friend wanted me to read a book called Liberty and Tyranny by Mark Levin. Supposedly this will help me to understand my friends political views. Apparently this Levin guy is a conservative talk radio host. So right away I figured this manifes... err I mean book was going to get under my skin. Sure enough, the first 2 chapters sets the scene as he frames the Christian evangelical faith inspired political thought that is to follow. Then in Chapter 3 he starts in about the the "Founding Fathers".

It really pisses me off when people try to glorify or even minor deify "The Founding Fathers". They try to say these men were "enlightened" and took the next step in Divine Provenance. They supposedly were divinely inspired to create the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

Let me set a few things straight. First, these were not new ideas. You had a bunch of learned men that read philosophy and thought that was the language best suited to create something hitherto reserved as the legacy of kings. Namely a new country. The designed the language of the Declaration of Independence to be regal. They wanted to sound as legit as possible. Not like a bunch of common outcasts trying to make a buck in backwater colonies. Let's not forget that John Adams once called Thomas Jefferson a "pimp" and his wife a "whore" all while giving a speech during negotiations on what was or was not going to be part of the Constitution. Hardly a civilized action for an enlightened, future President and Founding Father.

Secondly, don't give me this shit about "All men are created equal" as some sort of proof of this. What a load of horse-shit! If you were 1) Male, 2) White, 3) Educated and 4) wealthy... Well then you were created equal. All others were to be enslaved, conquered, massacred, ignored or repressed. I am not sure if there was even one signer of the Declaration of Independence that did not own a slave. It is probably the second greatest irony in all of history that these men chose to declare themselves as free of the tyranny of English rule yet held fellow humans under the bonds of slavery. Where was the enlightenment then?

Thirdly, if it wasn't for the French and English engaging in the latest incarnation of a long string of wars between them we in the U.S. would be having tea and crumpets at 3pm rather than chugging down 4 red bulls and a fist full of Emerald Nuts. We declared at the most opportune time possible. If there is anything to be said of the Founding Fathers it should be that their timing was impeccable and that they were very smart guys. They were also brave and took an enormous gamble. They were great men. But, there were not divinely enlightened men. They wanted a larger piece of their own pie and were willing to piss of the giant to get it. Lets stop making them out to be what they were not.

Finally, in the book, Levin throws in the old "God gave man Free Will" crap. I am baffled why these people can not see the greatest irony in all of history. God gave man Free Will and then Commandments on how he could or could not exercise it and a whole set of consequences if he decides to ignore them. WOW! Gee thanks for that. Thats like saying my dog roams "wildly" in the fenced off space I have provided for him. Or perhaps it is like that beautiful looking chair at my grandmothers house that nobody was allowed to sit in. Fucking useless! If you believe in the concept of "God" giving you Free Will, then by definition the Commandments mean nothing! Unless you are implying that your "God" is fallible. He gave you free will and then said "Oops, that was a mistake. Hmmm, I better give them more narrowed parameters." To my mind you cant have it both ways. Fallible or Contradictory. Either way, not traits one would expect from the omniscient. At least thats what I think.

Ok, end of rant. I'm sure there are more to come. if I offended you in this, that was not my intent.

 

[skunkape]

You make some valid points, but surely you aren't saying that bowing to the Crown is better than Liberty. Sure, the Founding Fathers had their flaws. Look at the f***ed place they grew up in.
You'll never come close to convincing me that George Washington or Benjamin Franklin were anything other than superb specimens of an Earth Human. If you are still blind to where subservience to Central Authority guides Humanity, you need to study History a little more in depth. You may change your mind.
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[Ron Collins]

You make some valid points, but surely you aren't saying that bowing to the Crown is better than Liberty.

Certainly not. I will gladly submit to being governed, but I will never be ruled.

Sure, the Founding Fathers had their flaws. Look at the f***ed place they grew up in.
You'll never come close to convincing me that George Washington or Benjamin Franklin were anything other than superb specimens of an Earth Human.

Sure, they were bright, brave, and committed men. But they were far from divine. They were tired of being ruled and robbed and took steps to ensure they would not be subjected to that any longer. However, I doubt honestly that many of them truly believed heart and soul in tenants set forth in the Declaration or the constitution. This is not about national patriotism. This is about casting MEN in the light of the divine by ascribing to them traits and attributes they did not posses. It was a means to an end. They needed to be eloquent and they were. The best part of our Constitution is that it can be changed. That was not divinely inspired either. That was simple compromise by men that had a deadline to meet and saw that they could never agree fully. Thus they put in a way to continue the debates, bickering, and political maneuvering in the following session. All I am saying is we should stop the mindless glorification. These guys were not prophets. They had some good ideas and some bad ones. They were just men.

 

[Xylo]

Agreed that there was nothing in the Constitution that was brand new...it was openly based upon a little document called the "Magna Carta," I'm sure most of us have heard about it at one point or another.

Were the Founders of the United States good men? I would say so. Many of them put the emergence of a new country ahead of their lives. That being said, "All men are created equal" did not refer to women, nor those with any hint of pigment in their skins. They also didn't see that the Federal Government would become a professional institution, nor that men would dedicate their lives to winning elections....but that's an entirely different thread.

 

[cottonzway]

I can suggest several books on this issue if you would like, Ron. More importantly then anything you are taking in information and using your mind for consideration. That is a wonderful thing.

 

[CapnG]

Your first post is grossly innacurrate Ron. As any brit worth his kippers will tell you, tea time is 4PM!

 

[Ron Collins]

Your first post is grossly innacurrate Ron. As any brit worth his kippers will tell you, tea time is 4PM!

My apologies sir!

 

[Mogwa]

If this thread demonstrates nothing else, it is clear proof that this country desperately needs a school voucher program.

 

[Ron Collins]

If this thread demonstrates nothing else, it is clear proof that this country desperately needs a school voucher program.

I'm not sure what that means. Please explain.

 

[Gareth]

Im happy I decided to read this thread. Because it reminds me how unique this forum is.

BTW is "Emerald Nuts" slang for meds/pills? If not it should be.