More Hoaxes

[Randall]

The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven Hoax: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/15/377589757/boy-says-he-didn-t-go-to-heaven-publisher-says-it-will-pull-book

"Nearly five years after it hit best-seller lists, a book that purported to be a 6-year-old boy's story of visiting angels and heaven after being injured in a bad car crash is being pulled from shelves. The young man at the center of The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven, Alex Malarkey, said this week that the story was all made up."​

 

[boomerang]

We should probably give this young man credit for his belated honesty. But I also picture thousands of self-styled skeptics, without reading the larger body of literature on the subject, dismissing NDEs with a self-confident smirk and "I told you so." Such is the psychology of the masses that one high impact story may influence opinion much more strongly than piles of evidence regarding what we can and cannot say about certain phenomena.

 

[Randall]

We should probably give this young man credit for his belated honesty. But I also picture thousands of self-styled skeptics, without reading the larger body of literature on the subject, dismissing NDEs with a self-confident smirk and "I told you so." Such is the psychology of the masses that one high impact story may influence opinion much more strongly than piles of evidence regarding what we can and cannot say about certain phenomena.

As someone who has looked at more than enough of the "larger body of literature" to know that there's no definitive evidence in favor of an afterlife, I'll be adding my name to that list of "self-styled skeptics". Now where's that "smirk" emoticon ... ( I guess Mr. Green will have to stand in ).

 

[DaveM]

'Malarkey', that should have clued everyone about this story.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

As soon as I read his absurd childish descriptions of Satan, Jesus and the entire fundamentalist narrow minded view of heaven, I knew it was a fraud. No one else has "gone to heaven" and come back affirming the fundamentalist view of heaven. Many people come back from an NDE and leave their church, finding that religion does not fit the reality of what they experienced.

 

[Randall]

As soon as I read his absurd childish descriptions of Satan, Jesus and the entire fundamentalist narrow minded view of heaven, I knew it was a fraud. No one else has "gone to heaven" and come back affirming the fundamentalist view of heaven. Many people come back from an NDE and leave their church, finding that religion does not fit the reality of what they experienced.

You make a good point about the "fundamentalist view of heaven". On the issue of NDEs, none have provided any substantial evidence that the associated perceptions are of objective reality either, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that a portion of those stories have been fabricated as well.

 

[manxman]

As soon as I read his absurd childish descriptions of Satan, Jesus and the entire fundamentalist narrow minded view of heaven, I knew it was a fraud. No one else has "gone to heaven" and come back affirming the fundamentalist view of heaven. Many people come back from an NDE and leave their church, finding that religion does not fit the reality of what they experienced.

Are you saying others have gone to heaven and 'come back' then ?.
No-one has gone to heaven and come-back, no need for bolded bit whatsoever, you are merely displaying an 'ism'.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Are you saying others have gone to heaven and 'come back' then ?.
No-one has gone to heaven and come-back, no need for bolded bit whatsoever, you are merely displaying an 'ism'.

LOL. Well, as the now elderly comedian Steve Martin might say "Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!"

What I meant to illustrate is that within the context of NDE testimonials, the narrative of this Christian kid was absurd. Now, I did not claim I believed in such testimonials. I simply was relating the story's lack of street-cred within the context of the rather large NDE industry.

And people wonder why so few people bother to post to this forum anymore.

 

[Randall]

What I meant to illustrate is that within the context of NDE testimonials ... I simply was relating the story's lack of street-cred within the context of the rather large NDE industry ...

Interesting label: The "NDE industry". I imagine that it is part and parcel of the whole New Age/Paranormal industry, and I find it discomforting to see Ufology tacked onto that rather large body of nonsense, but it's a ball and chain I doubt the ufologists will be shedding any time soon.

 

[manxman]

Poor bloke, makes an off the cuff post, and gets entangled.

 

[boomerang]

As someone who has looked at more than enough of the "larger body of literature" to know that there's no definitive evidence in favor of an afterlife, I'll be adding my name to that list of "self-styled skeptics". Now where's that "smirk" emoticon ... ( I guess Mr. Green will have to stand in ).

You have then indeed earned the right to an informed opinion and a hearty smirk.

I would agree that evidence for the UFO and the NDE are not of equivalent weight. I would object to the tempting assumption that NDEs necessarily "prove" an afterlife. What both phenomena share, however, is historical persistence and an ultimate reliance on the role of one or more observers for validation. Neither UFO witnesses nor those who claim to have returned from the dead have managed to come away with anything quantifiable to show for it. Multiple witnesses are still witnesses. Radar data and trace evidence are real, but still straddle the ontological fence between fact and imagination. Neither phenomenon is hard science, as neither meets the scientific criteria for demonstration of repeatable cause and effect.

Hence the "Oz" factor that keeps books about UFOs in the "Paranormal" section of the bookstore where the reader is too often seeking validation that anything imaginable is possible.

 

[Randall]

You have then indeed earned the right to an informed opinion and a hearty smirk.

I would agree that evidence for the UFO and the NDE are not of equivalent weight. I would object to the tempting assumption that NDEs necessarily "prove" an afterlife. What both phenomena share, however, is historical persistence and an ultimate reliance on the role of one or more observers for validation. Neither UFO witnesses nor those who claim to have returned from the dead have managed to come away with anything quantifiable to show for it. Multiple witnesses are still witnesses. Radar data and trace evidence are real, but still straddle the ontological fence between fact and imagination. Neither phenomenon is hard science, as neither meets the scientific criteria for demonstration of repeatable cause and effect.

Hence the "Oz" factor that keeps books about UFOs in the "Paranormal" section of the bookstore where the reader is too often seeking validation that anything imaginable is possible.

Good points. The biggest difference between the two types of phenomena is the subjective versus the objective nature of the evidence. When a UFO witness sees one while awake and unimpaired ( as opposed to some hypnosis or dream state ), they are most probably receiving a physical real stimulus from an objectively real object. Similarly, radar detects objectively real objects, not fabrications of one's imagination. On the other hand, NDEs are purely subjective experiences which happen under highly stressful situations in which the mind might be more prone to generating its own anomalous imagery.

Still, I don't entirely dismiss the possibility that if some vastly powerful mechanism generates our realm, it might also have the ability to preserve the consciousness part of our existence. But that's a real Hail Mary .

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Interestingly, Raymond Moody, the charming man from Alabama that pretty much coined the term Near Death Experience and made the study of it his life's work, REFUSED to accept an NDE as proof of the after life. He was fascinated by the phenomena itself, which easily lends itself to being a glimpse of the afterlife. But Moody stubbornly refused to endorse the claim that the NDE phenomena proved anything other than an enigma. In his later years, he did say that the evidence did point toward an after-life explanation, but this was never part of his agenda.

Unless you are a die-hard materialist who must believe that all NDE accounts are fraud, it seems to be an interesting area of investigation. Why, for example, does the brain seem to create this scenario? Why does this sense of being lifted from the body and transferred to another realm not only occur when a person is facing death (but later revived), but also occurs often in response to PTSD and traumatic experiences that have no relation to impending death? Is this some sort of hard wired response that gets invoked in some people in certain experiences? From a neurological viewpoint, I find such questions fascinating.

 

[Randall]

Interestingly, Raymond Moody, the charming man from Alabama that pretty much coined the term Near Death Experience and made the study of it his life's work, REFUSED to accept an NDE as proof of the after life. He was fascinated by the phenomena itself, which easily lends itself to being a glimpse of the afterlife. But Moody stubbornly refused to endorse the claim that the NDE phenomena proved anything other than an enigma. In his later years, he did say that the evidence did point toward an after-life explanation, but this was never part of his agenda.

Unless you are a die-hard materialist who must believe that all NDE accounts are fraud, it seems to be an interesting area of investigation. Why, for example, does the brain seem to create this scenario? Why does this sense of being lifted from the body and transferred to another realm not only occur when a person is facing death (but later revived), but also occurs often in response to PTSD and traumatic experiences that have no relation to impending death? Is this some sort of hard wired response that gets invoked in some people in certain experiences? From a neurological viewpoint, I find such questions fascinating.

It is definitely interesting. I suspect that the same mechanism responsible for generating dream experiences is involved. After all, NDEs seem to happen while the experiencer is unconscious to those on the scene at the time. I don't know of any that weren't. I don't know how that would even be possible. That begs the question why do we dream?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

You have to also wonder how much coaxing from the family, the local pastor etc, the boy might have had in creating or at least embellishing what might have been a real medical incident.
And by that I mean that I am sure that some kind of experience called NDE is possible, it's the associating that experience with an afterlife I suppose is where it get's murky. I cannot quote any real sources etc but memory seems to tell me that some pretty credible people have reported strange events around the point of clinical death, and lived to tell the tale.

Whatever experience is happening is in someone's head (for all we on the outside know) it is definitely shaky ground and most certainly going the whole hog to report visits to heaven to me smacks of religious indoctrination. And that never happens does it?

 

[manxman]

Interestingly, Raymond Moody, the charming man from Alabama that pretty much coined the term Near Death Experience and made the study of it his life's work, REFUSED to accept an NDE as proof of the after life. He was fascinated by the phenomena itself, which easily lends itself to being a glimpse of the afterlife. But Moody stubbornly refused to endorse the claim that the NDE phenomena proved anything other than an enigma. In his later years, he did say that the evidence did point toward an after-life explanation, but this was never part of his agenda.

Unless you are a die-hard materialist who must believe that all NDE accounts are fraud, it seems to be an interesting area of investigation. Why, for example, does the brain seem to create this scenario? Why does this sense of being lifted from the body and transferred to another realm not only occur when a person is facing death (but later revived), but also occurs often in response to PTSD and traumatic experiences that have no relation to impending death? Is this some sort of hard wired response that gets invoked in some people in certain experiences? From a neurological viewpoint, I find such questions fascinating.

Its natures way of making the final part of dieing a pleasurable experience, imo

 

[manxman]

It is definitely interesting. I suspect that the same mechanism responsible for generating dream experiences is involved. After all, NDEs seem to happen while the experiencer is unconscious to those on the scene at the time. I don't know of any that weren't. I don't know how that would even be possible. That begs the question why do we dream?

Because it makes sleeping interesting.

 

[boomerang]

Its natures way of making the final part of dieing a pleasurable experience, imo

Actually, even some NDE researchers speculate that the NDE experience may represent a kind of latent time-space echo of brain based consciousness, and that what follows could be nothingness.

 

[boomerang]

Interestingly, Raymond Moody, the charming man from Alabama that pretty much coined the term Near Death Experience and made the study of it his life's work, REFUSED to accept an NDE as proof of the after life. He was fascinated by the phenomena itself, which easily lends itself to being a glimpse of the afterlife. But Moody stubbornly refused to endorse the claim that the NDE phenomena proved anything other than an enigma. In his later years, he did say that the evidence did point toward an after-life explanation, but this was never part of his agenda.

Unless you are a die-hard materialist who must believe that all NDE accounts are fraud, it seems to be an interesting area of investigation. Why, for example, does the brain seem to create this scenario? Why does this sense of being lifted from the body and transferred to another realm not only occur when a person is facing death (but later revived), but also occurs often in response to PTSD and traumatic experiences that have no relation to impending death? Is this some sort of hard wired response that gets invoked in some people in certain experiences? From a neurological viewpoint, I find such questions fascinating.

What the average reader needs to know, and can neither confirm nor deny, is whether valid observations of real time events occur during clinical death. Are patients' detailed accounts of what is said and done while their brains are certifiably off-line genuine? Or are they a kind of confabulated "icing on the cake" added after the fact? Dunno....

 

[SheaOlmsford]

What the average reader needs to know, and can neither confirm nor deny, is whether valid observations of real time events occur during clinical death. Are patients' detailed accounts of what is said and done while their brains are certifiably off-line genuine? Or are they a kind of confabulated "icing on the cake" added after the fact? Dunno....

I could only suggest you read a few books by doctors on the NDE, such as the surgeon Melvin Morse, MD. He focused on children's NDE recollections, which are less tainted by dogma. He had numerous examples of children who supposedly lifted from the body and watched the entire operation. The children were able to describe what was done to them, including a description of the procedure and machines used, while they were unconscious. There was one strange case where a child reported floating through the building and out side. The child saw a tennis shoe (now we would call it a running shoe) high up on a short ledge not visible from the ground or the room where the child was placed. The child was so adamant about it that the nurses got the maintenance crew involved. They found the shoe out on a ledge, as the child said, many stories above the ground. Of course, all such cases come off an anecdotes. But if you haven't read the data by medical observers, then you can't claim there is no evidence.