jkoci
Watcher of the Skies
Interesting comment from the emergency room doctor.
Doctor says near-death experiences are in the mind - CNN.com
Doctor says near-death experiences are in the mind - CNN.com
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Near Death Experiences - CNN
- Thread starter jkoci
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jkoci
Watcher of the Skies
And the video. Gupta makes an interesting comment at the end.
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
This is a total BS explanation for many reasons they are not dealing with in regards to the NDE.
See my indepth article on the subject ...
http://eteponge.blogspot.com/2007/09/near-death-experiences-out-of-body.html - Near Death Experiences / Out Of Body Experiences: An Indepth Examination of Veridical Evidence & The Rebuttal of Common Skeptical Explanations
Here's the serious problem in relation to the heart stopping for extended periods of time (such as what happened to the woman in the article you linked) and the patient's experience being explained away as just a dream-like state from REM, or Dying Brain starved of oxygen, all while the patient is flat-lined ...
"Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptical people claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts." (Dr. Peter Fenwick)
Dr. Sam Parnia: "During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories."
Pim Van Lommel's well-known research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, also notes that cerebral activity flatlines within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.
"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex) the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their "dead" body." (Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.)
The cold hard medical facts are that when a person's heart stops they lose total consciousness within seconds. The loss of consciousness is complete and there are no memories of the event. EEG and brain stem monitors show no brain activity while in this state. There is no gag reflex, no pupil response, no brain activity whatsoever. They are dead. The brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you couldn't remember them.
Multiple medical doctors including Peter Fenwick a respected neuropsychiatrist, Pim Van Lommel a cardiologist, Sam Parnia, Bruce Greyson, Ian Stevenson, Melvin Morse, Michael Sabom, and numerous others, will tell you the same thing.
This is why a patient flat-lining and then having a several minute long NDE where they witness everything going on in the room around them, and finding themselves in a heavenly realm visiting deceased relatives and being told all sorts of indepth information from "higher beings" cannot be chalked up to REM dreaming or slowly being starved of oxygen, because the brain waves go flat within seconds of cardiac arrest.
It also doesn't attempt to explain the most perplexing aspects of the NDE such as the following ...
* There are a number of highly interesting documented cases of people having near death experiences / out of body experiences, even during a flat EEG where brain and heart activity have ceased, returning with factual information which they had no prior knowledge of, and numerous cases in which the experiencers returned to life with information unavailable to them at the time of death.
* These include being able to accurately tell the doctors what they were doing while they were clinically dead, what clothes they wore, what procedures and instruments they used, and any conversations being said, including accurate blow by blow accounts of their own resuscitation from a bird's eye point of view, the details of which can later be checked and verified to be true.
* Often times they also describe what was happening out in the hallway, who was sitting in the waiting room, what was happening on the other side of the building, and conversations being said at these same locations, all while they were clinically dead elsewhere. The events witnessed, heard, and experienced later being verified to be true. Even obscure objects on the roof have been seen and verified.
* There are also accounts of experiencers meeting deceased relatives during an NDE that the person did not know was dead, such as a relative or a friend, and finding out that they were in fact deceased after the fact, and learning information from them that they could not have otherwise known.
* There are many accounts of children and adult NDErs learning about relatives and siblings who had died before their own birth that they never met or were never told about, etc.
* People who are blind, and some people who have been blind since birth, have been able to accurately perceive visual surroundings during their experience. Many people have also been informed of knowledge far beyond their personal capacity. Etc.
Here is an excellent list of arguments in favor of the phenomenon by IANDS...
* Once a person's brainwaves have ceased, indicating that all mental activity has stopped - perceiving, thinking, and remembering - how do we explain their accurate perception of events going on around their 'deceased' body (both sight and sound), and their accurate reporting of events taking place even at significant distances from their clinically-dead body?
* If we regard experiencers' perceptions of dead relatives as just imaginary "wishful thinking", how can we explain their accurate description of relatives previously unknown to them, yet later verified by living relatives and by civil documents?
* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?
See my indepth article on the subject ...
http://eteponge.blogspot.com/2007/09/near-death-experiences-out-of-body.html - Near Death Experiences / Out Of Body Experiences: An Indepth Examination of Veridical Evidence & The Rebuttal of Common Skeptical Explanations
Here's the serious problem in relation to the heart stopping for extended periods of time (such as what happened to the woman in the article you linked) and the patient's experience being explained away as just a dream-like state from REM, or Dying Brain starved of oxygen, all while the patient is flat-lined ...
"Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptical people claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts." (Dr. Peter Fenwick)
Dr. Sam Parnia: "During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories."
Pim Van Lommel's well-known research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, also notes that cerebral activity flatlines within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.
"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex) the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their "dead" body." (Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.)
The cold hard medical facts are that when a person's heart stops they lose total consciousness within seconds. The loss of consciousness is complete and there are no memories of the event. EEG and brain stem monitors show no brain activity while in this state. There is no gag reflex, no pupil response, no brain activity whatsoever. They are dead. The brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you couldn't remember them.
Multiple medical doctors including Peter Fenwick a respected neuropsychiatrist, Pim Van Lommel a cardiologist, Sam Parnia, Bruce Greyson, Ian Stevenson, Melvin Morse, Michael Sabom, and numerous others, will tell you the same thing.
This is why a patient flat-lining and then having a several minute long NDE where they witness everything going on in the room around them, and finding themselves in a heavenly realm visiting deceased relatives and being told all sorts of indepth information from "higher beings" cannot be chalked up to REM dreaming or slowly being starved of oxygen, because the brain waves go flat within seconds of cardiac arrest.
It also doesn't attempt to explain the most perplexing aspects of the NDE such as the following ...
* There are a number of highly interesting documented cases of people having near death experiences / out of body experiences, even during a flat EEG where brain and heart activity have ceased, returning with factual information which they had no prior knowledge of, and numerous cases in which the experiencers returned to life with information unavailable to them at the time of death.
* These include being able to accurately tell the doctors what they were doing while they were clinically dead, what clothes they wore, what procedures and instruments they used, and any conversations being said, including accurate blow by blow accounts of their own resuscitation from a bird's eye point of view, the details of which can later be checked and verified to be true.
* Often times they also describe what was happening out in the hallway, who was sitting in the waiting room, what was happening on the other side of the building, and conversations being said at these same locations, all while they were clinically dead elsewhere. The events witnessed, heard, and experienced later being verified to be true. Even obscure objects on the roof have been seen and verified.
* There are also accounts of experiencers meeting deceased relatives during an NDE that the person did not know was dead, such as a relative or a friend, and finding out that they were in fact deceased after the fact, and learning information from them that they could not have otherwise known.
* There are many accounts of children and adult NDErs learning about relatives and siblings who had died before their own birth that they never met or were never told about, etc.
* People who are blind, and some people who have been blind since birth, have been able to accurately perceive visual surroundings during their experience. Many people have also been informed of knowledge far beyond their personal capacity. Etc.
Here is an excellent list of arguments in favor of the phenomenon by IANDS...
* Once a person's brainwaves have ceased, indicating that all mental activity has stopped - perceiving, thinking, and remembering - how do we explain their accurate perception of events going on around their 'deceased' body (both sight and sound), and their accurate reporting of events taking place even at significant distances from their clinically-dead body?
* If we regard experiencers' perceptions of dead relatives as just imaginary "wishful thinking", how can we explain their accurate description of relatives previously unknown to them, yet later verified by living relatives and by civil documents?
* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
Here's some of my favorite Veridical NDE Cases that I've read about ...
* "During my cardiac arrest I had a extensive experience (…) and later I saw, apart from my deceased grandmother, a man who had looked at me lovingly, but whom I did not know. More than 10 years later, at my mother’s deathbed, she confessed to me that I had been born out of an extramarital relationship, my father being a Jewish man who had been deported and killed during the second World War, and my mother showed me his picture. The unknown man that I had seen more than 10 years before during my NDE turned out to be my biological father.” (A case documented by Dr. Pim Van Lommel)
* The case of a 13 year old girl named Lynn in the late 1960s, who met a man in military uniform during her NDE who identified himself as her uncle, and gave her his name, and told her to "Tell Dorothy that the baby and I are okay", and Dorothy was her aunt. Her aunt Dorothy was married to a different guy that Lynn assumed was her uncle her whole life, but it turned out she was married before, years earlier, to a man with the same name of the man she had spoken to during her NDE, who was in the military, who died years ago, and that Dorothy had had a stillborn child with him. (A case documented by P.M.H Atwater)
* The case of a woman named Maria who in cardiac arrest had an OBE and ascended three floors to see a worn blue tennis shoe with it's lace caught under the heel and a scuff mark on the big toe [her exact words when she came back] on the third floor ledge, and the nurse (Kimberly Clark) went up and found it there. In another similar case, a woman in cardiac arrest ascended to the roof of a building, saw a red shoe in a certain location up there, and told them when she came back, and the janitor found it and brought it back down.
* "In 1982, while a Fellow for the National Cancer Institute, Dr. Melvin Morse was working in a clinic in Pocatello, Idaho. He was called to revive a young girl who nearly died in a community swimming pool. She had had no heart beat for 19 minutes, yet completely recovered. She was able to recount many details of her own resuscitation, and then said that she was taken down a brick lined tunnel to a heavenly place. When Dr. Morse showed his obvious skepticism, she patted him shyly on the hand and said: "Don't worry, Dr. Morse, heaven is fun!."
She also drew a picture of her experience. We see in this picture the "two realities" often described by those who have near death experiences. Above the blue line is "heaven". Below the blue line is a "hole in the world" that opened up to show to this girl her yet unborn brother. She was told that she had to return to "help my mother because my baby brother was going to have some problems". She does not say in words what the problem was, but draws a large heart in the boy's chest. He was born with severe heart problems, several months after this picture was drawn." (A case documented by Dr. Melvin Morse. She and her family were even interviewed [along with Melvin Morse] on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries in the 1980s.)
* "During my cardiac arrest I had a extensive experience (…) and later I saw, apart from my deceased grandmother, a man who had looked at me lovingly, but whom I did not know. More than 10 years later, at my mother’s deathbed, she confessed to me that I had been born out of an extramarital relationship, my father being a Jewish man who had been deported and killed during the second World War, and my mother showed me his picture. The unknown man that I had seen more than 10 years before during my NDE turned out to be my biological father.” (A case documented by Dr. Pim Van Lommel)
* The case of a 13 year old girl named Lynn in the late 1960s, who met a man in military uniform during her NDE who identified himself as her uncle, and gave her his name, and told her to "Tell Dorothy that the baby and I are okay", and Dorothy was her aunt. Her aunt Dorothy was married to a different guy that Lynn assumed was her uncle her whole life, but it turned out she was married before, years earlier, to a man with the same name of the man she had spoken to during her NDE, who was in the military, who died years ago, and that Dorothy had had a stillborn child with him. (A case documented by P.M.H Atwater)
* The case of a woman named Maria who in cardiac arrest had an OBE and ascended three floors to see a worn blue tennis shoe with it's lace caught under the heel and a scuff mark on the big toe [her exact words when she came back] on the third floor ledge, and the nurse (Kimberly Clark) went up and found it there. In another similar case, a woman in cardiac arrest ascended to the roof of a building, saw a red shoe in a certain location up there, and told them when she came back, and the janitor found it and brought it back down.
* "In 1982, while a Fellow for the National Cancer Institute, Dr. Melvin Morse was working in a clinic in Pocatello, Idaho. He was called to revive a young girl who nearly died in a community swimming pool. She had had no heart beat for 19 minutes, yet completely recovered. She was able to recount many details of her own resuscitation, and then said that she was taken down a brick lined tunnel to a heavenly place. When Dr. Morse showed his obvious skepticism, she patted him shyly on the hand and said: "Don't worry, Dr. Morse, heaven is fun!."
She also drew a picture of her experience. We see in this picture the "two realities" often described by those who have near death experiences. Above the blue line is "heaven". Below the blue line is a "hole in the world" that opened up to show to this girl her yet unborn brother. She was told that she had to return to "help my mother because my baby brother was going to have some problems". She does not say in words what the problem was, but draws a large heart in the boy's chest. He was born with severe heart problems, several months after this picture was drawn." (A case documented by Dr. Melvin Morse. She and her family were even interviewed [along with Melvin Morse] on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries in the 1980s.)
Tom From Hong Kong
Sleeping with one eye open . . .
For those of you who haven't come across the case of Pam Reynolds, it is perhaps the most compelling individual case for the survival of the consciousness (I suspect many of you have -- if not, see the videos on YouTube). I have never seen a NDE skeptic directly address the case.
Reynolds did an interview with Art Bell years ago which I would recommend. She made one observation which has stayed with me ever since -- once she crossed over she saw a multitude of light beings, all of whom she knew somehow. As a collective group, they made an absolutely fantastic sound, or music, beyond description. However, she had the distinct impression or "knowing" that if just one of these beings was missing from the group then the music or sound would be ruined.
Re; consciousness, I would also recommend the work of Thomas Campbell, a nuclear physicist and one of the original members of the Monroe Institute (again, see his videos on YouTube).
Reynolds did an interview with Art Bell years ago which I would recommend. She made one observation which has stayed with me ever since -- once she crossed over she saw a multitude of light beings, all of whom she knew somehow. As a collective group, they made an absolutely fantastic sound, or music, beyond description. However, she had the distinct impression or "knowing" that if just one of these beings was missing from the group then the music or sound would be ruined.
Re; consciousness, I would also recommend the work of Thomas Campbell, a nuclear physicist and one of the original members of the Monroe Institute (again, see his videos on YouTube).
Some interesting discussion here. Let me ask a few questions and I'm not trying to play fundie skeptic here, just perhaps Devil's advocate.
I've heard of a doctor who, as an experiment, wrote some kind of message in the OR to test this NDE stuff. You'll have to excuse my ignorance as I don't know the name of this doctor, maybe someone else will. Anyway, of all the NDE that were experienced in this particular room no one reported the apparently easily identifiable "message" that was visible if a person was lifted out of their body as reported. If the experiencers can view the doctors, the table, and everyone else, then they would have presumably been able to read the message as well. I'm sure someone will know what I'm talking about although I am very sketchy on the details. This would be a good confirmatory experiment for those that report being able to see what is going on around the room as they are in limbo. Shouldn't they be able to read the "message" that was visible from the top part of the room as the person was floating away??
I've also read that people who undergo this time frame where the body is "dead" have no such experience. It is simply a dark, blank nothingness. Why would some people report something and some people report "the lights just truned out"? Does this suggest that some people are not to "move on" to higher consiousness realms, that they just haven't got to that point yet in their "dying", or that subjective belief systems have something to do with such experiences?? The shoe thing is interesting, but seems more anecdotal than experimental.
DMT is also apparently churned out in such emergency situations. And DMT testing has produced many parallel experiences, namely the reporting of "beings", although there seems to be a variety of forms. What part does this substance play in such reporting do you think?? We do know a little about the molecule and it certainly seems to enhance and/or produce experiences that are either real or fantasy. It's just terribly difficult to tell which, but we have been able to reproduce them in experimental conditions. But it still doesn't tell us exactly what is happening and is rather easy to dismiss as fantasy.
Lastly, the reported NDE's are often touted as happening when there is no brain activity. This made me wonder about some dreams I've had. Anyone ever have a dream in an instant?? I've found myself falling to sleep, say on the couch, for maybe a minute before waking back up. And in that instant it seems I've had an impossibly long dream that I can recount. And the recounting of it does seem nearly impossible to have happened in the short time I was out. Is it possible that the people are reporting experiences that they had while their brain was still functioning and it seemed like such a long time (hovering over the bed, the roof, the sky, etc)?? Again considering the weird distorted time during "dream" or "experience" and have to wonder. If they had this experience while the brain was still functioning, then it would be more clear why they remember.
These comments are just for my understanding. I don't have a beef one way or another. Either our consiousness survives or it doesn't. Nothing I do will likely change that. Sure I would prefer to survive, but hell, wouldn't we all?? Just hopefully a little food for further thought. Like I said, good discussion, I can't say I know a lot about the topic.
I've heard of a doctor who, as an experiment, wrote some kind of message in the OR to test this NDE stuff. You'll have to excuse my ignorance as I don't know the name of this doctor, maybe someone else will. Anyway, of all the NDE that were experienced in this particular room no one reported the apparently easily identifiable "message" that was visible if a person was lifted out of their body as reported. If the experiencers can view the doctors, the table, and everyone else, then they would have presumably been able to read the message as well. I'm sure someone will know what I'm talking about although I am very sketchy on the details. This would be a good confirmatory experiment for those that report being able to see what is going on around the room as they are in limbo. Shouldn't they be able to read the "message" that was visible from the top part of the room as the person was floating away??
I've also read that people who undergo this time frame where the body is "dead" have no such experience. It is simply a dark, blank nothingness. Why would some people report something and some people report "the lights just truned out"? Does this suggest that some people are not to "move on" to higher consiousness realms, that they just haven't got to that point yet in their "dying", or that subjective belief systems have something to do with such experiences?? The shoe thing is interesting, but seems more anecdotal than experimental.
DMT is also apparently churned out in such emergency situations. And DMT testing has produced many parallel experiences, namely the reporting of "beings", although there seems to be a variety of forms. What part does this substance play in such reporting do you think?? We do know a little about the molecule and it certainly seems to enhance and/or produce experiences that are either real or fantasy. It's just terribly difficult to tell which, but we have been able to reproduce them in experimental conditions. But it still doesn't tell us exactly what is happening and is rather easy to dismiss as fantasy.
Lastly, the reported NDE's are often touted as happening when there is no brain activity. This made me wonder about some dreams I've had. Anyone ever have a dream in an instant?? I've found myself falling to sleep, say on the couch, for maybe a minute before waking back up. And in that instant it seems I've had an impossibly long dream that I can recount. And the recounting of it does seem nearly impossible to have happened in the short time I was out. Is it possible that the people are reporting experiences that they had while their brain was still functioning and it seemed like such a long time (hovering over the bed, the roof, the sky, etc)?? Again considering the weird distorted time during "dream" or "experience" and have to wonder. If they had this experience while the brain was still functioning, then it would be more clear why they remember.
These comments are just for my understanding. I don't have a beef one way or another. Either our consiousness survives or it doesn't. Nothing I do will likely change that. Sure I would prefer to survive, but hell, wouldn't we all?? Just hopefully a little food for further thought. Like I said, good discussion, I can't say I know a lot about the topic.
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
I believe this was by Dr. Sam Parnia, an NDE Researcher. I don't think results have actually come back yet last time I checked, it was an extensive study in hundreds of hospitals I think? Here are some other research studies on Veridical Perception during NDE ...
* Many doctors, nurses, medical staff, paramedics, and family members have been interviewed by NDE Researchers to obtain cross-referanced verifiable information between the stories of the patients concerning their Veridical NDEs and the cross-referanced experiences of the medical staff involved with them.
* Dr. Michael Sabom did a study on over 57 cardiac patients who had clinically died and were brought back, 32 of whom had experienced Veridical OBEs and had described in great detail their own resusitations during cardiac arrest, and 25 of whom had not experienced an OBE during their cardiac arrest. He had two groups, the experiencers who saw in their OBEs and the non-experiencers who did not, describe their resusitations. To his suprise, 80% of the non-experiencers made serious mistakes. On the other hand, all of the experiencers did not make a single mistake.
Accourding to PMH Atwater in her book "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences" regarding Dr. Michael Sabom's Research Study...
"Experiencers even correctly detailed readings on medical machines that were not in their line of vision, and described other circumstances they should not otherwise have been able to know."
* Dr. Pim Van Lommel did a more indepth study with 344 cardiac patients independently of Dr. Michael Sabom with similar results.
They made sure that their subjects could be verified as flatlined during the experiences. (This is significant because the brain flat-lines within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.)
* Dr. Kenneth Ring did a study on Veridical NDEs of 31 persons who were blind (a number of whom were born blind) and found that they could veridically "see" events while their OBE unfolded the same way sighted people's do.
I'd like to add that Dr. Michael Sabom and Dr. Pim Van Lommel and Dr. Kenneth Ring's Research were published in PEER REVIEWED Science Journals. Most notably The Lancet Medical Journal.
Here's a link to Dr. Pim Van Lommel's peer reviewed research study ...
The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest - Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.
http://www.mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/html/dutch_study.html - The Dutch Study
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm - A great response by Pim Van Lommel against a Leading Skeptic regarding his research study.
Yep, only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death report an NDE, while the remaining 82% do not. Even under the *exact same* conditions.
"Our most striking finding was that Near-Death Experiences do not have a physical or medical root. After all, 100 per cent of the patients suffered a shortage of oxygen, 100 per cent were given morphine-like medications, 100 per cent were victims of severe stress, so those are plainly not the reasons why 18 per cent had Near-Death Experiences and 82 per cent didn't. If they had been triggered by any one of those things, everyone would have had Near-Death Experiences." (Van Lommel 1995)
The point being, if any one of those things, dying brain, etc, had been the trigger, they all would have had NDEs who suffered the same degree of lack of oxygen, but because only 18% did, it's obviously not the trigger for the NDE experience.
I'd like to clarify that even though only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death report an NDE (all under the same medical conditions), the LONGER one is clinically dead, the higher the chance of being brought back with an NDE. Those who were clinically dead longer than several minutes have a far higher chance of coming back with an NDE than those who were clinically dead for only a minute or two. But not always.
Subjective belief systems? Not entirely. As IANDS Points out ...
* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?
I've read cases of Fundie Christians coming back believing that all Religions are true and that Reincarnation is real, etc, not exactly a tape-loop feedback of their personal religious beliefs.
One friend of mine was a Fundamentalist Christian, had a profound NDE with Shamanic Imagery, and came back interested in Shamanism, and became a Shaman.
I've also read of a case where Muhammed appeared to a Buddhist man during NDE, and another where Buddha appeared to a Muslim man during NDE. So, it's not always a feedback of what you believed that comes through during the experience.
OBE Research is where you go beyond mere anecdotal in that regard.
OBE Specific Research:
* The Monroe Institute's OBE Experiments.
* Charles Tart's OBE Experiment of having an experienced OBEr accurately read a five-digit number from an unreachable/unseeable location. 100,000 to 1 chance accuracy.
* Robert Morris' OBE Experiments with Keith Harary who reported accurately on sitters, letters, and positions, in a sealed laboratory 20 yards away.
* Clinical testing of OBEs - in which strain gauges were triggered at a distance, apparently by the test subject's roving presence, and in which an animal reacted consistently as if the subject were in the room when he was reportedly having an OBE while asleep in the next room.
If the message above the operating table thing eventually shows results, it would be interesting.
Veridical Details. Veridical Details. Veridical Details. I don't see how skeptics always fail to recognize that measuring stick. That's how we can potentially separate a hallucination experience from something potentially real. Veridical Details associated with the encounter is how we suggest the experience is netted in a real objective experience. Stuff like this ...
* Being able to accurately tell the doctors what they were doing while they were clinically dead, what clothes they wore, what procedures and instruments they used, and any conversations being said, including accurate blow by blow accounts of their own resuscitation from a bird's eye point of view, the details of which can later be checked and verified to be true.
* Often times they also describe what was happening out in the hallway, who was sitting in the waiting room, what was happening on the other side of the building, and conversations being said at these same locations, all while they were clinically dead elsewhere. The events witnessed, heard, and experienced later being verified to be true. Even obscure objects on the roof have been seen and verified.
* There are also accounts of experiencers meeting deceased relatives during an NDE that the person did not know was dead, such as a relative or a friend, and finding out that they were in fact deceased after the fact, and learning information from them that they could not have otherwise known.
* There are many accounts of children and adult NDErs learning about relatives and siblings who had died before their own birth that they never met or were never told about, etc.
* People who are blind, and some people who have been blind since birth, have been able to accurately perceive visual surroundings during their experience. Many people have also been informed of knowledge far beyond their personal capacity. Etc.
As for DMT specifically ...
DMT does not account for the Veridical Elements of the NDE, nor the amazing structure of many NDEs. Accourding to the book DMT: The Spiritual Molecule, it may act as an initial NDE trigger, but cannot make up for the entire experience, Veridical Elements and all, in addition to the pesky little fact that within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest, the brain waves go flat, and even if they were sufficient (which they are not), the brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you couldn't remember them.
Again, you are forgetting that people are often witnessing veridical events going on around them and beyond them (like down the hallway, on the other side of the building, or looking at objects outside of their line of sight in the same room, etc) during the period in which they are flat-lined, in *real time*. If they recount real events going on around and beyond them, during that state of no brain wave activity, and there are a number of such cases, that's where the whole "the entire experience was in the 2 seconds before their brain waves went silent" falls apart.
As well as additional Veridical Details such as being imparted knowledge from unknown relatives and such during the experience that later turn out to be factual.
Simply put, it's in the (veridical) details.
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
You missed the first definition of the word, which is the context in which I use it ...
1. Truthful; veracious: veridical testimony. [tried…to supply…a veridical background to the events and people portrayed — Laura Krey]
<tried…to supply…a="" veridical="" background="" to="" the="" events="" and="" people="" portrayed="" —="" laura="" krey="">
truthful / accurate / verifiable is the sense of which I use the term Veridical.
Also, I need to get more up-to-date with the latest NDE research going on as of late. My indepth article on the subject I wrote several years ago, and haven't done much reading up recently on whatever new developments may have occurred.</tried…to>
1. Truthful; veracious: veridical testimony. [tried…to supply…a veridical background to the events and people portrayed — Laura Krey]
<tried…to supply…a="" veridical="" background="" to="" the="" events="" and="" people="" portrayed="" —="" laura="" krey="">
truthful / accurate / verifiable is the sense of which I use the term Veridical.
Also, I need to get more up-to-date with the latest NDE research going on as of late. My indepth article on the subject I wrote several years ago, and haven't done much reading up recently on whatever new developments may have occurred.</tried…to>
jkoci
Watcher of the Skies
Thanks again for your replies. Were the 18% dead for a longer time? If not is there any other speculation as to why only 18% reported an NDE?
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
I agree that in certain NDE cases it could indeed be that the Verifiable Details were misinterpreted from what actually occurred, embellished, Etc. However, I disagree with the Debunker stance that if it could have happened in some cases, then it must have happened in ALL cases.
Which is essentially what that guy interviewed on The Paracast on the Topic of UFOs seemed to be asserting, in a different context. "Some people have misidentified UFOs, therefore they ALL must have." "If it could have been misinterpreted / misidentified, it MUST have, in ALL documented cases."
I agree in certain cases it could be, but the blanket-suggestion they all must be I have problems with.
Now, I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting, but I've debated people before who essentially were making that assertion. So just saying.
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
Some suggest that those persons may have had an actual NDE, but they don't remember it, the memories did not "reconnect" with their brain when they came back. If the mind is separated from the body during NDE, not always would one remember the event. (It's perplexing how anyone would. Unless the transmission theory of consciousness is correct.)
In the same context that some people assert that when we dream, we separate from our bodies, not everyone remembers their dreams, and often upon waking, will forget most or all of a dream within minutes of waking up.
I have some relatives who never remember their dreams, and others who almost always remember their dreams.
I don't know for certain.
There are some NDErs who will only remember bits and pieces of their NDE, and others who remember nothing until a few weeks or months or even years later, and it just "hits them". So, possibly.
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
Just a few weeks ago, a close friend of my highly skeptical brother (who is a Paramedic), had a profound NDE with Verifiable Details and such. (It really shocked my brother to hear this from him.) I've never met this friend of his, but he's known him for several years. I'll repost it here ...
One of my brother's best friends and co-workers, a firefighter, recently had a profound near death experience. Here's what my brother told me about this guy's NDE ...
He was clinically dead for several minutes, they had to shock him EIGHT TIMES to bring him back. He related that he found himself walking around outside of his body. He noticed some EMT working on someone on the floor, one of whom was his friend, so he asked him what he was doing, and who he was working on. But he wouldn't answer him. So he looked over, and saw that the guy was HIMSELF who was being worked on. He overheard their conversations, saw things in the room going on that was outside of his line of vision, heard some advanced medication stuff being spoken of that he as a basic firefighter doesn't know. His son died over a year ago, and he appeared and spoke to him during his NDE, and now that he came back from the NDE, he says he doesn't fear death, and feels a calmness he's never felt before.
Many of the classic aspects of the NDE.
One of my brother's best friends and co-workers, a firefighter, recently had a profound near death experience. Here's what my brother told me about this guy's NDE ...
He was clinically dead for several minutes, they had to shock him EIGHT TIMES to bring him back. He related that he found himself walking around outside of his body. He noticed some EMT working on someone on the floor, one of whom was his friend, so he asked him what he was doing, and who he was working on. But he wouldn't answer him. So he looked over, and saw that the guy was HIMSELF who was being worked on. He overheard their conversations, saw things in the room going on that was outside of his line of vision, heard some advanced medication stuff being spoken of that he as a basic firefighter doesn't know. His son died over a year ago, and he appeared and spoke to him during his NDE, and now that he came back from the NDE, he says he doesn't fear death, and feels a calmness he's never felt before.
Many of the classic aspects of the NDE.
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
I have always wondered why psuedo skeptics have such a hostile reaction to NDE's. Now I'm not talking clear headed skeptics here I'm talking the jimmy randis of the world. However, I heard an account the other day that goes against my own personal belief system and I think I can now at least understand why it makes em so uneasy. This one was a completely "religous" experience and the result was a born again Christian basically saying the bible is inerrant and everyone else has it wrong. I guess the reason it bothers me is I am willing to reason and take the NDE of people with a grain of salt but at the same time respect the fact that they are having a real expericence and I find (personally) great encouragement (especially as I get older) in it. But, if I give respect to the ones I "like" then I have to at least give a listen to the ones I don't. In other words without being an athiest (which I'm not) or a religious zealot (which I'm not) how does one seperate Signal from Noise?
Eteponge
Skilled Investigator
I've noticed what I've called "Fundie Christians Jumping On The Paranormal Bandwagon" to preach their doctrine. On YouTube you will find many Fundie Christians posting purported NDE Videos, full with recreations and interviews (always with a Christian Ministry TV Program), talking about how they were formerly an Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, Catholic, Hindu, Etc, and how they found themselves in Hell, and God told them that Buddha, Muhammed, The Pope, Krishna, or Joseph Smith were evil deceived satanists, and showed them their friends of that religion burning in Hell telling them not to make the same mistake they made, Etc. It's the same garbage story every time.
But you know what I've noticed? I'm VERY well read on all of those Religions. And most of these "Former Muslims", "Former Mormons", "Former Hindus", "Former Catholics", "Former Buddhists", Etc, GET THEIR DOCTRINES LAUGHABLY WRONG when they are talking about their "Former Religion".
Like it had a "Former Muslim NDEr" talk about how they "Prayed to Muhammed to Save them", "Like they were taught in Mosque", which is TOTAL BS, real Muslims pray to God ONLY. I also saw "Former Mormon NDErs" talking about how they "Prayed to Joseph Smith", and "Asked for Many Gods to Save Them", "Like I was taught in Church", which again, is totally against Mormon Teaching. And in one "Former Buddhist NDEr" account he said that he saw Buddha in Hell "because he didn't accept Christ as his Savior", that doesn't make sense, because Buddha lived 600 years BEFORE Jesus Christ was born, hahaha. If you notice the errors they are making concerning their purported "Former Religion" the whole thing seems suspicious.
I personally think, due to the suspicious content and the fradulent information in regards to discussing their "Former Religion", many of these people are most probably frauds, jumping on the Paranormal Bandwagon to teach their Fundie Doctrines to those who have "Gone Astray" (I.E. learned to think).
Also, in other cases, I KNOW have embellished their claims over time. Take for instance Howard Storm. He was an Atheist who had an NDE, found himself in a dark hellish place (Howard was admittedly a bully and an awful man before his NDE), prayed to God to Rescue him, a "Being of Light" came to rescue him from the darkness, gave him a life review, surrounded him with light beings, and answered all of his questions. He asked which Religion was true, he was answered, "Whichever brings you closest to God".
Now, years later, Howard Storm has become a preacher and a Fundamentalist Christian, and has Re-Interpreted his original recorded NDE, to saying the "Being of Light" was Jesus Christ, the light beings were Angels, and totally leaving out the part where the Being of Light told him in regards to Religion "whichever brings you closest to God". And on YouTube there are videos of him being interviewed on Christian Fundie TV Programs preaching that people need Jesus or they are going to Hell forever, Etc.
I've seen this with a few other cases too, of people having an initial NDE, later converting to Christianity, and totally re-interpreting it in a Fundie Christian context, and leaving out the parts they now disagree with.