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stonehart

stonehart

Paranormal Adept
I read this comment today in relation to why we have not met other intelligent species to date:

"When we get out into interstellar space, we will find an alien beacon. When it is translated I believe it will say something along the lines of “warning system inhabited by psychotic apes: avoid direct contact”

:D yep could be so
 
stonehart said:
I read this comment today in relation to why we have not met other intelligent species to date:

"When we get out into interstellar space, we will find an alien beacon. When it is translated I believe it will say something along the lines of “warning system inhabited by psychotic apes: avoid direct contact”

:D yep could be so
Click to expand...
Do you think it's a genetic mutation infecting the human collective analogous to a virus; or is it an inherent character flaw?
 
Voyager said:
Do you think it's a genetic mutation infecting the human collective analogous to a virus; or is it an inherent character flaw?
Click to expand...

When I hear such questions I personally step back and try to see the big picture. Where are these value judgements coming from? Are they valid?

I have to think that the process of natural selection and evolution are still at work. We have not graduated from them. Forces are at work that transcend the human specific concepts of what should or should not be occurring. I think in the larger picture everything is as it should be. I think our failure to recognize this is a major problem in how we deal with ourselves and the world we find ourselves in. The whole idea that the species is defective, broken, or poisoned ignores the larger reality of the natural systems and processes that we are actually a part of, rather than the mental constructs and dreams of how things should be. It seems the better strategy is to accept and embrace who we are and deal with it accordingly rather than bemoan our inescapable nature. If we could channel our aggression, greed, and selfishness to get us off this planet and populating the solar system instead of fighting over patches of dirt down here it would be nothing but a good thing.

But yeah, a sign saying, Stay away, Dangerous Animals, Do not Feed the Humans probably wouldn't be out of order.
 
If a small percentage of the population is in control, and those people are psychopathic, it would affect the entire collective. Hitler and Stalin are good examples. Perhaps everything is at it should be. Everything in the Universe is constantly changing. Hard to predict where humanity will be at in fifty or a hundred years. Will it be a free society or a Police State?
 
Voyager said:
If a small percentage of the population is in control, and those people are psychopathic, it would affect the entire collective. Hitler and Stalin are good examples. Perhaps everything is at it should be. Everything in the Universe is constantly changing. Hard to predict where humanity will be at in fifty or a hundred years. Will it be a free society or a Police State?
Click to expand...

We are the way we are for a reason. The major players in society, people and philosophies, are in constant flux though. Whatever overarching tenancies in behavior that span generations and the rise and fall of civilizations may pretty much be beyond our ability to eliminate or control in any real way. The question is, "How do we embrace our real natures and minimize our misery?" I would put to your ideas about "free society" and "police state" are largely products of your perception and interpretation and its all a matter of degrees rather than one thing or another.
 
There are no easy answers to the problems that confront us all. A free society or a Police State certainly is applicable to our present state of civilization.
 
Voyager said:
There are no easy answers to the problems that confront us all. A free society or a Police State certainly is applicable to our present state of civilization.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think the successful solution that will eventually emerge will be one that recognizes and embraces the behavioral reality of human beings as individuals and a species and harnesses those traits we perceive as "negative" to our betterment rather than attempts to force the human race to be something other than it obviously is, territorial animals driven by the need to reproduce, which I might add, will be the bottom line motivators for any other species, intelligent or no, that we happen to meet out there in the cosmos.
 
That is true. Instinct plays a large part. It would help if they would discontinue tribal warfare. We are defined to a large extent by our technology. Future discoveries could change everything. Nothing is guaranteed. We could evolve into an ultra-advanced civilization, or bring about our own extinction.
 
trainedobserver said:
We are the way we are for a reason. The major players in society, people and philosophies, are in constant flux though. Whatever overarching tenancies in behavior that span generations and the rise and fall of civilizations may pretty much be beyond our ability to eliminate or control in any real way. The question is, "How do we embrace our real natures and minimize our misery?" I would put to your ideas about "free society" and "police state" are largely products of your perception and interpretation and its all a matter of degrees rather than one thing or another.
Click to expand...

Very nice analysis on the subject.
I posted the quote as I found it funny and a reflection of how most people (not all) feel about our species as a whole. The fact that we can recognize our tendency to embrace our more destructive side means that we have the conscious ability to change this. As a species we are barely adolescent in many respects, but time and circumstances willing we will continue to evolve mentally and socially. However having said that I see no utopia in our short or even medium term future as conflict and aggression are very much a part of what makes us human to start with. The propensity for humans to create is matched only by our ability to destroy.
 
Have you guys read Ismael by Quinn? Tribalism, that is the segregation of human beings into distinct self sufficient groups, may be the optimum societal configuration and not the global village powered by industrialized agriculture.

The only civilization that seems to have the best chance to ultimately work is one that works in concert with the natural world. I have often wondered if that may mean, if not an abandonment of technology, a much different approach in its regulation and use to actually enable humanity to realize its full potential. Sometimes the intelligent use of technology is not to use it.
 
trainedobserver said:
When I hear such questions I personally step back and try to see the big picture. Where are these value judgements coming from? Are they valid?

I have to think that the process of natural selection and evolution are still at work. We have not graduated from them. Forces are at work that transcend the human specific concepts of what should or should not be occurring. I think in the larger picture everything is as it should be. I think our value to recognize this is a major problem in how we deal with ourselves and the world we find ourselves in. The whole idea that the species is defective, broken, or poisoned ignores the larger reality of the natural systems and processes that we are actually apart of, rather than the mental constructs and dreams of how things should be. It seems the better strategy is to accept and embrace who we are and deal with it accordingly rather than bemoan our inescapable nature. If we could channel our aggression, greed, and selfishness to get us off this planet and populating the solar system instead of fighting over patches of dirt down here it would be nothing but a good thing.

But yeah, a sign saying, Stay away, Dangerous Animals, Do not Feed the Humans probably wouldn't be out of order.
Click to expand...


All I can say on the matter about humans and how we are like and whether it is only our perceptions of ourselves and morality that give as self-worth etc.

Really, at the minute, man is still reproducing with healthier specimens every generation and the total populations is increasing. As far as species go, if you are spreading and healthy then you are doing all right! You could be extinct before you reach sentience! Shit, we are doing alright in the universe of 'so what, the world is not fair, always pretty and clean. Bad stuff happens to living beings, most of the time somebody is after you or your stuff and that's just the animals!
We are here though. For now. So no need to over-analyse our ranking in galactic niceness - maybe alien are way worse than us. We could even have a 'moral highground' over other setient beings or the question may just be so irrelevant because the morality of an mouse and a cat are never going to see eye to eye.
 
"the morality of an mouse and a cat are never going to see eye to eye"

Nice!

If I may go out on a limb here into the realm of the hypothetical, I think a possible reason for why we do not see or have not conclusively observed any other interstellar civilizations is that I do not think most survive that long. The universe is an extremely hostile place by its very nature, and if we take our own world as an analog our chances of survival were never more than 50/50 at best if we take into account other extinction events. I really do not need to list the dangers of space or for that matter the dangers of being planet bound for we have all read enough to get the basic idea.
So the way "I" see it is that the chances of any species surviving long enough to become interstellar are in all likely hood slim to none.

My personal thoughts on Aliens is that as a spices we are best to keep a low profile for yes they may be benign but then again can we really gamble on that?
On a side note we are going to go extinct if we stay here on earth it is simply a matter of time, but on the other hand becoming interstellar is no grantee that we don't go extinct either.

So I say sit back and enjoy the little bit of the ride we get to go on for in all likely hood there is a large chunk of rock out there with our name on it that could really ruin our day.
 
I think other species that are intelligent may have even more chance of survival than us for the reason that they may be an intelligent race but it is not in their nature to be greedy or envy things. The idea of war withing these races might be as ridiculous as wars between snails. Greed alone can account for so many reasons as why we as a species may not survive. So many unintended consequences have happened/are possible that just come from man's continual effort to find better ways to wage war against his fellow man. When was the last time there were no wars on Earth? Has that even happened in the last few thousand years?

Just due to a few human emotions we put ourselves at great risk. Remove some of these self-destructive traits and the human race would emerge into being a far more capable race to be reckoned with. I am aware that so many technological advances for good are found when actually looking for other things but It is the unwillingness just to want to cooperate with the entire species that causes so many problems. If another race just does not have that character part/flaw in their make-up, they may be most resilient because they wisely use their intelligence and resources for the long-term species survival instead of our way which is mostly 'me and my kids and maybe my extended family' - which is the extent of innate goodwill in man in general. Horrible to have to say because I know I am not like that but most people are...
 
If there are actually E.T.I's out there and they are half as smart as people seem to think they are, they should start their warp drives and get the hell out of here while they can, for there is no creature half as sly, cunning, devious, violent or determined as a "man". in other words we would kick the Aliens bottoms! Lets just say my money is on humanity in an "interstellar" war.
 
Han said:
If there are actually E.T.I's out there and they are half as smart as people seem to think they are, they should start their warp drives and get the hell out of here while they can, for there is no creature half as sly, cunning, devious, violent or determined as a "man". in other words we would kick the Aliens bottoms! Lets just say my money is on humanity in an "interstellar" war.
Click to expand...

That is an assumption. We may yet find fellow super-predators even better adapted than we are. That is why I say when we actually do meet another civilization in space, they will instantly be revealed as our natural enemies by both logic and instinct. We will be like two trains colliding head-on. And some people say I'm gloomy. Imagine.
 
stonehart said:
Very nice analysis on the subject.
I posted the quote as I found it funny and a reflection of how most people (not all) feel about our species as a whole. The fact that we can recognize our tendency to embrace our more destructive side means that we have the conscious ability to change this. As a species we are barely adolescent in many respects, but time and circumstances willing we will continue to evolve mentally and socially. However having said that I see no utopia in our short or even medium term future as conflict and aggression are very much a part of what makes us human to start with. The propensity for humans to create is matched only by our ability to destroy.
Click to expand...
There is hope:

Richard Branson: I asked for weed at White House - Patrick Gavin - POLITICO.com
 
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