Project Aquarius

[HoJack]

Long time listener/lurker, first post.

SHORT VERSION

I am trying to find out when Dan Burisch first came on the scene with his claims regarding Project Aquarius.

While his claims are in the crazy camp, some of his story matches a story about Project Aquarius I was told about happening prior to the first claims of Dan Burisch in 1994.



LONGER VERSION

In 1995 my college roommate told me one late night the story of his high school science teacher. The story goes that in 1993 my roommate (we shall call him Jim) had a science teacher that we shall call Mr. White. Jim was one of those students that would often help out the Mr. White after school, cleaning the lab, etc. I was the same kind of student. Anyway, after getting to know Mr. White for some time, one day the conversation turned to UFOs. Mr. White told Jim that when he was in college he had gone to listen to some sort of UFO related speaker on campus. Sometime shortly after the presentation, Mr. White was approached by a few men and asked if he would be interested working on the UFO problem with a government group called "Project Aquarius".

Mr. White told them he would be interested and the men went on their way. Mr. White did not hear about the Project again until several years later, after he had graduated.

The rest of the story is about how Project Aquarius is an ongoing project that attempts to catalog and research UFO and paranormal phenomena. Apparently the document contains a 4000 page table of contents and contains a massive amount of data.

Anyway, this story about Aquarius also contained lots of crazy camp type of stories.

Now I do not believe Aquarius exists or exists in the way neither Mr. White nor Dan Burisch claimed. But what I find interesting is the way that both men were claimed to be recruited and how a few of the other details were very similar.

I assumed that Mr. White heard the Dan Burisch tale and then used it as his own in order to get a rise out of his student. But as far as I can tell, Mr. White told Jim the story of Aquarius PRIOR to Dan Burisch's first public claims.

Mr. White is now in prison (for what I do not know) and I haven't been able to get more details about his story. At the time in 1995 I wasn't aware enough to ask more questions or pursue the matter (other than a gopher search on the emerging internet).


While Aquarius has been debunked and Dan Burisch sounds like a crazy man, I am trying to piece together a timeline to see if it might be worth trying to get an interview with Mr. White (if he and the prison he is in are willing).

Thanks!

 

[Stagger Lee]

"Mr. White is now in prison"
I hope this is not a Breaking Bad spoiler

 

[HoJack]

"Mr. White is now in prison"
I hope this is not a Breaking Bad spoiler

Haha, no, but I thought the alias was appropriate, especially with my binge re-watching of Breaking Bad this week.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

It's funny how Burisch seems to have resurfaced of late. I never bought into the guy for a nanosecond. I think he jumped on the Lazar bandwagon - but I believe Lazar to a degree.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Smells like BS most likely BS.

 

[Tyger]

The rest of the story is about how Project Aquarius is an ongoing project that attempts to catalog and research UFO and paranormal phenomena. Apparently the document contains a 4000 page table of contents and contains a massive amount of data.

What document? I think I missed something in the post. Is there a document?

Dan Burisch - just came across the guy because of the Funnies thread - where a video has been posted with Dan Burisch attempting to explain HIV causing AIDS. Who is Dan Burisch, I wonder. Wow. Hmmm....the stuff you learn on here....I click on this video to the side that was uploaded in November 2007 - the first one I clicked on - Part 9 of 13 parts -

Anyway, I also came across this short biography-like reminisce - LINK: Mystery Of Dr. Dan Burisch - Beginning To End

And this: LINK - Dr. Crain's UFO Claims Raise Questions - 8 News NOW

TEXT: "UFO stories don't get any wilder than this one. A Las Vegas man has developed a cult-like following around the world by claiming to have worked with a live extraterrestrial at Area 51. The story told by Dan Burisch is a whopper, but can he prove any of it? George Knapp of the Eyewitness News I-Team has the story of Dr. Dan's alien adventure.

"His name today is Dan Burisch. Before that it was Dan Catselas, and when Eyewitness News first ran into him, it was Dan Crain. "Doctor" Dan Crain, he says. But is he a doctor, and has he really been face to face with an alien in an underground lab? This story has a little bit of everything, including a lot of unanswered questions. When Channel 8 produced a story in 1994 about this volunteer teacher at the Boys and Girls club, he was introduced as Dr. Dan Crain. At the time, Dan Crain, now known as Dan Burisch, was supposedly participating in the most secret program in existence. But the secret is now out. Burisch has a worldwide following -- websites a message boards, books, audiotapes and DVDs. He has a publicist and a biographer, a high profile for a secret scientist. Burisch says he worked in an underground lab at S-4 near Area 51, the same place first made public by Bob Lazar. Inside he met an extraterrestrial named Jrod and they became pals. He also met angels in the lab and they spoke in Hebrew.

"On Frenchman's Mountain, Burisch discovered the first seeds of life on earth. Who believes this stuff? His wife Deborah for one. She signed a sworn statement saying she too works for MJ-12, the secret government. Family friend Marcia McDowell, another alleged secret agent, supports the story too. It's grown more complex ever since we first heard some of it in 1990. It's more complex now."

@HoJack : So in answer to your question it looks like 1990 is the witching point when Dan Burisch surfaced with his stories.

But then we have this: "There are photos of Burisch and his wife in military garb saluting each other. Neither ever served in the military. Intriguingly, they have a sticker on their windshield that allows access to Nellis AFB. Would a real government scientist be allowed to openly dribble out government secrets? We asked former army intelligence Colonel John Alexander. "It's highly improbable," said Col. John Alexander, retired army intelligence. What about his PHD? Burisch says he earned his doctorate in 1990 at Stony Brook University in New York. The school says he was never a student there. Burisch says his records were erased. But at the time he supposedly earned his degree in New York, records show, he had a full time job in Las Vegas as a parole officer. He now says he flew back and forth to the school on weekends. Ridiculous, the university says. He met his wife as a parole officer. She was there on drug charges. She's spent 12 years in the PBX department of the Mirage, but that's just a cover job.

[...]

"For a final opinion on this story, we turned to a man who helped to inspire it and who supposedly was in the secret program with Burisch.

"This is the biggest bull***t story I have ever heard in my life. Anybody that actually believes this guy should be ashamed of themselves. I never worked at Tonopah. I never met this knucklehead," said Bob Lazar."

 

[Tyger]

And so then - who is Bob Lazar? This is what I clicked on - so this is who we should be impressed by? Not so much, I think. Pretty transparent imo......what do others think?

LINK: Bob Lazar: The Man Behind Element 115 - 8 News NOW

TEXT: "How does this sound -- a conversion kit that would allow your car to run on clean, plentiful hydrogen? It's in the works in New Mexico, and the name of the guy who is building it may ring a bell. He's Bob Lazar, and 16 years ago he told the I-Team's George Knapp about Area 51 and said scientists there were studying UFOs. He dropped out of sight, but George caught up with him.

"As a teenager, Bob Lazar built a jet-powered bicycle, then a jet Honda, then a jet dragster. These day's he's focused on a different propulsion system. Bob Lazar, former government scientist, said, "Every vehicle we have here is powered by hydrogen."

"At his new home in rural New Mexico [2005], Lazar has been working on a conversion kit that will turn any car into a hydrogen hybrid. His two vehicles have already been converted and can travel up to 450 miles on hydrogen, then switch automatically back to gasoline. Lazar wants to take it a step further.

"Lazar said, "Every major car company is working on a hydrogen system, but the only difference is, they want to sell you a new hydrogen car and sell you hydrogen gas at hydrogen gas stations. Basically, we're making a conversion kit you can use in your own car and instead of buying hydrogen from someone else, you make it." He makes hydrogen using water and a solar powered generator. But again, with a Lazar twist. "It's the only particle accelerator on the block, I guarantee ya."

"The small lab behind his home has a 30-foot long particle accelerator he built from scratch. He uses it to produce metal hydrides, which absorb hydrogen gas like a sponge and make it much safer to use as a fuel. Lazar says, "You can do that with ordinary metal hydrides but we found a way to manipulate the atomic structure to change things. It's worked fantastically." George Knapp teases, "It almost sounds like you're a real scientist." Lazar replies, "That's what they tell me."

"It's an inside joke based on the ridicule Lazar has faced ever since he went public in 1989 with his claims that he worked on flying saucers in the Nevada desert. The military refused to answer any questions about Lazar or his claims, nor could we verify much of anything about his life. Lazar told us he previously worked at Los Alamos National Lab. The lab repeatedly denied it, even after we found Lazar's name in the lab phone book. His critics say that since he can't prove he ever earned a college degree, he can't be a real scientist, even if he can build jet engines, hydrogen systems and particle accelerators.

"Is there a way to prove any part of his story? Maybe. In 1989, Lazar claimed the ET saucers he worked on could produce their own gravity. This propulsion was made possible by a superheavy substance Lazar called Element 115. What is the problem with this story? Element 115 did not exist in 1989. Now, however, it does. Scientists at the Lawrence Livermore Lab created a miniscule amount of 115 last year. A profound development, but the material decayed almost instantly. So where did the government get 500 pounds of the stuff, which is what Lazar claimed long ago? Lazar says, "It has to come from some place where it's natural, like from a super nova."

"In other words, it comes from a solar system other than ours. Lazar's critics say the fact that 115 as created in a lab is unstable and fleeting proves Lazar is a liar. Lazar says the first batch was only a starting point and that he will be proven right in the long run. "I'd like to see them continue to work and produce different isotopes of 115 because they're gonna come up with a handful of different varieties and they're gonna come up with a stable isotope, and that's what we're interested," he countered. By no means does he dwell on being proven right. He and his wife have left the UFO crowd far behind and could care less, they say. Lazar stands by his original story, but says, "I can't say I would do it again. I would probably keep my mouth shut this time."

"George Knapp inquired, "But you must get a twinge about the program." Lazar said, "Oh sure. I mean, who wouldn't like to go back and see what they're doing now? But on the other hand, I'd rather be here." Earlier this year [2005], British scientists say they demonstrated an anti-gravity system that appears to be based on the theories revealed years ago by Lazar. Some scientists say it's proof that what Lazar said about Element 115 is true after all.

The I-Team will let you know how it comes out."

 

[Tyger]

This is the one thing that has me puzzled. here is an article on Bob Lazar -

LINK: Update on Area 51 whistleblower Bob Lazar | Openminds.tv

TEXT: "He started telling friends about his work at the base, and even told them where and when they could view test flights. He and his friends were then busted and he was fired. So the story goes. The Air Force denies his claims. However, upon investigation, Knapp found that another top secret facility, Los Alamos National Laboratories (LANL) in New Mexico, had Lazar listed in their phone book. Lazar said he had worked there, but LANL denied that claim."

This puzzles me - exactly what "LANL phone book" would they be referring to? I don't believe such exists - at least none that a non-Lab employee would be able to access - and then I found the clarification in the below text - that it was not a LANL phone book - meaning the lab's phone book (which no journalist would casually gain access to) - but it was the the town of Los Alamos's phone book. Okay.

But that Mr Knapp found Lazar's name among 'other scientists' at the Lab - well, not sure what to make of this, either. Firstly, it's a bit iffy if one could identify 'other scientists' working at the lab from the local phone book. The phone book doesn't identify anyone as a scientist - so how would one know about the 'other scientists'? One wouldn't - but the mention is a way of lending credibility to Lazar's claim imo.

But then I read about the newspaper article - and because I know the name of the local newspaper in the town of Los Alamos, I did a google and got more clarity on the newspaper article. I found this article, which repeats the idea that there is a telephone directory that lists Los Alamos scientists. As I say a local telephone directory would exist but it would have anyone who lived in the town of Los Alamos and had a land line - which would have been everyone in the early 1980's from scientists to police to teachers to clerks and cooks and store clerks, etc.

LINK: The Bob Lazar Story - UFO Evidence

TEXT: "Lazar claimed to have worked at the Los Almos National Laboratories, but no record was of his employment there was found. Hovewer his name appear in an old telephone directory of Los Alamos scientists. An article in a July, 1982 edition of the Los Alamos Monitor, which shows a picture of Bob by a jet car and refers to his employment as a scientist with Los Alamos, is also hard to explain. There are also Los Alamos employees who told KLAS TV's George Knapp they remember Bob Lazar."

Again, all suggestive, but the newspaper's name is accurate. Still, I'd have to see this article to believe it.

This is the original interview with Bob Lazar in 1989 @HoJack that started it all -

TEXT: "Lazar claimed to have worked in 1988 and 1989 as a physicist at S4 allegedly located at Papoose Lake southwest of top secret Area 51 near Groom Dry Lake, Nevada. According to Lazar, S4 serves as a hidden military location for the study and research of extraterrestrial spacecraft, or flying saucers using reverse engineering. Lazar says he saw nine different extraterrestrial vehicles there and has provided detailed information on the mode of propulsion and other technical details of a disc-shaped vehicle he called the sport model.

"In November 1989, Lazar appeared in a special interview with investigative reporter George Knapp on Las Vegas TV station KLAS to discuss his purported employment at "S4", a facility he claims exists near Area 51. In his interview with Knapp, Lazar said he encountered several flying saucers. He says he first thought the saucers were secret terrestrial aircraft whose test flights must have been responsible for many UFO reports. On closer examination and from having been shown multiple briefing documents, Lazar came to the conclusion that the discs were of extraterrestrial origin. In his filmed testimony Lazar explains how this impression first hit him after he boarded one craft being studied and examined its interior.

"Lazar claims to have "worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory (specifically in the Meson Physics facility ), involved with experiments using the 1/2 mile long Linear Particle Accelerator." Knapp claimed to find Lazar's name among that of other scientists in the 1982 Los Alamos phone book and have a 1982 Los Alamos Monitor news article mentioning "Lazar, [as] a physicist at the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility."

"For the propulsion of the studied vehicles, Bob Lazar claims that the atomic Element 115 served as a nuclear fuel. Element 115 (temporarily named "ununpentium" (symbol Uup)) reportedly provided an energy source which would produce anti-gravity effects under proton bombardment, along with antimatter for energy production. As the intense strong nuclear force field of Element 115's nucleus would be properly amplified, the resulting large-scale gravitational effect would be a distortion or warp of space-time that would, in effect, greatly shorten the distance and travel time to a destination.

"Lazar also claims that he was given introductory briefings describing the historical involvement by extraterrestrial beings with this planet for the past 100,000 years. The beings allegedly originate from the Zeta Reticuli 1 & 2 star system and are therefore referred to as Zeta Reticulans, popularly called 'greys'. According to Lazar these beings were referred to as 'the kids' within the program, or as 'gourds' among the personnel."

I know those who've been around UFOlogy a long time are probably well versed in these long-ago events. I'm not, so its all news to me. Surprised at how thin these events really are that have subsequently gone on to fold into a massive back-story about aliens from Reticuli this-or-that. Sheesh! Sorry - but how can anyone lend credence to stuff like this?

 

[HoJack]

Thanks Tyger, 1990 as a starting point seems to me to verify that the teacher I mentioned in the OP could have got his story from the original source. I wonder now, when the first reference to how Burisch was recruited by Project Aquarius went public. The story that the teacher told in '93 was identical in many aspects of the inner workings of the Project.

Good work.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Tyger - you surprised me. I realise not all forum members have the same knowledge or interests etc but I thought everyone even half interested in ufology would know who Bob Lazar is. Of course, ufo's may not be your thing and that's cool.

For what it's worth, George Knapp, the reporter, and Bob Lazar together are pretty much responsible for the modern cultural phenomenon that is Area 51 (in reference to UFO's that is). There are some Coast to Coast shows with Lazar that are worth listening to if you are interested in Lazar's story. I am convinced that at the very least, Lazar was used somehow to 'leak' info about Area 51. There are things to his story that are very hard to explain, although many think it all a crock of sh*t!

 

[trainedobserver]

I think the prevailing theories on these two are that Burisch is an old school con-artist and that Lazar was a copy machine repair-man that got access to the base in that capacity. I think Ron Collins has an old post somewhere outlining reasoning behind that version the Lazar story. I became convinced a long time ago that nothing Burisch has ever said has had a word of truth in it.

 

[marduk]

My problem with Lazar, aside from the brothels, aside from the run-ins with the law, and aside from not being able to prove he has degrees in anything, is simply this:

If he actually was a scientist on the sport model, either he was very, very cheaply paid (even in 1989 dollars), or he worked there for a very, very short time... and why would they expose him to super-duper-ultra-mega classified earth shattering secrets on, like, day 1 of the job?

I say he cleaned the toilets.

 

[Trajanus]

Tyger - you surprised me. I realise not all forum members have the same knowledge or interests etc but I thought everyone even half interested in ufology would know who Bob Lazar is.

Yeah old timers would assume that but Lazar made waves some time ago and younger guys may not have heard of him.

I am convinced that at the very least, Lazar was used somehow to 'leak' info about Area 51.

What info and why?

 

[Tyger]

My problem with Lazar, aside from the brothels, aside from the run-ins with the law, and aside from not being able to prove he has degrees in anything, is simply this:

If he actually was a scientist on the sport model, either he was very, very cheaply paid (even in 1989 dollars), or he worked there for a very, very short time... and why would they expose him to super-duper-ultra-mega classified earth shattering secrets on, like, day 1 of the job?

I say he cleaned the toilets.

Very possible - but even toilet cleaning is pretty high clearance if around secret stuff.

He may have gotten as far as the little 'town' on the Nevada Test Site - where Area 51 is located. It's not a 'town', of course, but a junction, where there are several buildings and a pretty snazzy store to buy t-shirts and little gimcracks. Maybe he was a clerk at the store? Stab in the dark. He might be able to get as far into the Nevada Test Site as this junction - but anything more would require a lot more and I agree, he had a passing familiarity and passed it off as in-depth to the unwitting.

Tyger - you surprised me. I realise not all forum members have the same knowledge or interests etc but I thought everyone even half interested in ufology would know who Bob Lazar is. Of course, ufo's may not be your thing and that's cool.

For what it's worth, George Knapp, the reporter, and Bob Lazar together are pretty much responsible for the modern cultural phenomenon that is Area 51 (in reference to UFO's that is). There are some Coast to Coast shows with Lazar that are worth listening to if you are interested in Lazar's story. I am convinced that at the very least, Lazar was used somehow to 'leak' info about Area 51. There are things to his story that are very hard to explain, although many think it all a crock of sh*t!

I read stuff on ufo's a long, long time ago - but dropped the subject an equally long time ago.

In the 90's I was living and working in the Southwest and had reason to be in both New Mexico and Nevada. I recall watching a television show that may have indeed been about Bob Lazar now that I think about it. In this show there were video shots of Los Alamos - showing the gates to various locations (called 'areas' - as in area 6 - or area 10 - and such). The narrator was impressed with the fact that the man they were profiling and interviewing knew a great deal about the various 'areas' of Los Alamos. I recall watching and thinking that the guy - whoever he was - had to be bogus - because knowing about the areas, especially if one lived in the town, is no great feat.

First off, it appears Bob Lazar lived in Los Alamos just as it was becoming an 'open town'. Up to the late 70's one couldn't just be in Los Alamos as a common old joe - it was a secure town and to gain entry one would have had to pass a military check-point. By the time Lazar was there in the 80's the check-point was long gone and just common folk were free to live in the town. Knowing something of the social workings of the town in the 90's (when I was there), I could see - it just dawned on me - that if Lazar had a link to brothels, he could have been doing a brisk business between New Mexico and Nevada. That said, physicists telling some tall tales (laced with just enough 'real stuff') to their local 'supplier' of womanly (or manly) companionship wouldn't surprise me.

But I am intrigued: what 'things' about his story are 'very hard to explain'?

I think the prevailing theories on these two are that Burisch is an old school con-artist and that Lazar was a copy machine repair-man that got access to the base in that capacity. I think Ron Collins has an old post somewhere outlining reasoning behind that version the Lazar story. I became convinced a long time ago that nothing Burisch has ever said has had a word of truth in it.

Can we find that post? I am interested.

I think I must be in the camp of this is "all a crock of sh*t!" as Goggs puts it. It's hard to believe that people would put any credence to such a story. Yet it 'flew' - big time. This - in my book - is the real 'woo' btw.

 

[Tyger]

Someone just quoted me the old journalistic 'instinct' - 'never let the facts get in the way of a good story!' I think a good portion - or all of this Area 51 stuff - is just that - a 'good story'. But facts? Not so much.