R.I.P to Lee Rigby, murdered on the streets of London.

[lovebucket]

No politics, no expressions of emotion, just a simple R.I.P to a soldier on the streets of his home country, from a fellow brit, god bless Lee, god bless.

 

[Wade]

this was a very shocking and brazen attack and I am also surprised that little...so far...as been made of it. the only thing I heard was that Cameron was canceling a trip and opening up a COBRA meeting. I've yet to look into the details but I heard one of the fellows give a speech of sorts before the police came and picked them up after they attacked the police. so apparently some of the attack wad caught in tape.

 

[lovebucket]

Well, at 2.30 pm on wednesday afternoon, outside of a primary school (as its called here in the uk), two extremists crashed their car into an off-duty soldier (a 20-something father of two it is now being reported), and while he laid on the ground, dragged him to the middle of a busy London street, and attacked him with machetes, knives and meat cleavers, decapitating him! After this they stood their ground for 20 minutes, asking onlookers to film and document their actions and justifications, until 20 mins later a female armed police officer arrived and shot the two offenders after they approached her with their bloodied weapons. This is why a lot is caught on tape, they wanted it! And this happened less than 30 mins from where i live.
Both of the attackers are still alive and being held, i don't think this will be of much comfort to his family however.

My thoughts are with them.

 

[Wade]

is there any special circumstances in british law that could make this crime come with more severe punishments if they were not considered a terrorist act? by that I mean a hate crime or in some cases here in the states if there is any indication of torture or maiming or repeated attempts at tormenting a victim there is a charge that is called mayhem that can bring in more severe charges.

 

[Grifynne]

I was stunned when I read this story yesterday. I hope the family can find some comfort and healing when all is said and done. I am sure it's not going to be easy considering how senseless and brutal this killing was. It just shouldn't happen, to be a soldier then end up viciously murdered at home. When I see stories like this I really think we (as in the collective human race) are our own worst enemy.

And this happened less than 30 mins from where i live.

I'm sure it's far more disturbing to know that it happened so close to home, Lovebucket. I think the reality is that this sort of thing can happen anywhere. If someone has made up their mind that they want to do this then there is very little we can do until it happens and we see how quickly we can react. I am sure I am not alone in wanting to know if this was an isolated group or if there were others (maybe other members who weren't present) who could be a risk.

 

[pixelsmith]

Here in Minnesota someone with a firearm of some sort could have shot them both dead possibly before they killed the soldier. A good example of why banning guns is stupid. Typically by the time a cop gets to a shooting someone is already dead. I have a sign in my shop We Welcome Licensed Concealed or Open Carry Gun Owners. It is comforting seeing citizens sometimes walk around with a gun on their hip. Most people around here conceal carry but some open carry. When someone sees that guns are welcome in an establishment they think twice about robbing the place.

 

[Grifynne]

Here in Minnesota someone with a firearm of some sort could have shot them both dead possibly before they killed the soldier. A good example of why banning guns is stupid. Typically by the time a cop gets to a shooting someone is already dead. I have a sign in my shop We Welcome Licensed Concealed or Open Carry Gun Owners. It is comforting seeing citizens sometimes walk around with a gun on their hip. Most people around here conceal carry but some open carry. When someone sees that guns are welcome in an establishment they think twice about robbing the place.

I have no problem with people having guns. And you are right, someone could have stopped it much sooner if there was an armed citizen nearby. But there are situations where that might not be a guaranteed solution. For example, if no one realized what was happening right away (which is the feeling I got, apparently one bystander initially thought the guy was injured and that the people around him were helping him when they were actually stabbing him), then there isn't much that can be done. You may not be in a situation that allows you to grab your gun if you were just hit by a car and then it's up to anyone nearby to help (and there may not be anyone or sadly, they may not be willing to step in).

Still, it does sound like it took the police a while to arrive. Maybe there was a good reason (like they weren't called right away). While I, for the most part, agree with your sentiment, I am not sure that would have prevented death in this instance.

 

[pixelsmith]

Maybe not maybe so. I think I could tell the difference between someone helping and someone hacking up someone with a meat cleaver. It sounds like numerous people were shooting movies or photos instead of shooting bad guys. Way to go with banning guns London. Is London now going to ban meat cleavers or just assault cleavers?

 

[pixelsmith]

A million CCTV cameras didn't help much either did they?

 

[Wade]

well pixel in this case there was no attempt by either assailant to escape or avoid detection so I don"t think the presence or absence of cameras is an issue. if somebody is determined to committ a particular crime they will find a way to do it. they have cameras in banks and other businesses to thwart robberies and yet the businesses get hit anyways it doesn't mean that the cameras don't have value . but , I do see where you are going with this on the proliferation of cameras in society, but given that my whereabouts and habits could easily be deduced from my cell phone and use of ATM and debit cards I'm not as concerned about cameras on every corner in public than I am about the the invasion of our personal space at home i.e. those dragonfly drones that will soon be thrust upon us.

 

[stonehart]

Is it just me or is the world getting more crazy by the day?
Gun related violence very seldom happens here in little old New Zealand and the sort of act this thread is about I can say never happens.
Yes there have been domestic cases where people have gone nuts with an ax or knife but that is the exception not the rule...... and for it to happen in public! no never.
What am I getting at?
Well we have very tough gun laws here and a blanket ban on hand guns outside of a gun club (I personally don't agree with it), and to get a gun license here is a right pain in the bum to be honest.
I am not sure if it is good grounds to argue that tough gun laws work or it is just something in the New Zealander psyche but mas shooting here are extremely rare as is gun violence overall.

But to get back on topic my only question is this: Was it a terrorist act? or the act of a lone deranged individual?... maybe both.
Hell I find it hard to kill a fly or a snail in my garden let alone a fellow human.

 

[Wade]

Very good point stoney you and I are on the same wavelength I guess. after I heard that the assailants may have recently been "radicalized " and a few days ago the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
Mental Disorders came out I made a point of reminding myself to look up a possible connection between terrorism and psychosis.

 

[Grifynne]

Is it just me or is the world getting more crazy by the day?
Gun related violence very seldom happens here in little old New Zealand and the sort of act this thread is about I can say never happens.
Yes there have been domestic cases where people have gone nuts with an ax or knife but that is the exception not the rule...... and for it to happen in public! no never.
What am I getting at?
Well we have very tough gun laws here and a blanket ban on hand guns outside of a gun club (I personally don't agree with it), and to get a gun license here is a right pain in the bum to be honest.
I am not sure if it is good grounds to argue that tough gun laws work or it is just something in the New Zealander psyche but mas shooting here are extremely rare as is gun violence overall.

But to get back on topic my only question is this: Was it a terrorist act? or the act of a lone deranged individual?... maybe both.
Hell I find it hard to kill a fly or a snail in my garden let alone a fellow human.

You make some good points, Stonehart, but I think there may be some society related differences between our countries. I have lived in the U.S. my whole life and lately I have been getting the feeling that the atmosphere is changing here in a bad way. Maybe it's just my perspective, but I have been feeling it for a while now. I can't speak for the U.K. though, never been there. I just don't think it has anything to do with guns really. I think it has a lot to do with mental states, how people are raised, our country's 'priorities' and general pressure levels among other things.

For example, we had the terrible killing in California a few weeks ago where a 12 year old boy stabbed his 8 year old sister:
Brother arrested in fatal stabbing of 8 year-old girl in Valley Springs | 89.3 KPCC

Then today a 15 year old boy was arrested in Utah for stabbing his two younger siblings to death:
15-year-old Utah boy arrested in death of two younger brothers - U.S. News

And two d-bags stole a teenagers iPad in Las Vegas recently and accidentally dragged the victim and killed him by running him over with their car:
Two men arrested in killing over iPad in Las Vegas - U.S. News

Each of these situations is worrisome and none involved guns.

I haven't figured out what it all means but I feel like there's something there. Maybe it's human nature, I don't know but there is definitely something ugly lurking out there within us ("us" again meaning collectively, not you me or anyone else in this forum specifically). I just can't decide if it's actually increasing in frequency or if it's just a matter of information being more readily accessible.

 

[stonehart]

You make some good points, Stonehart, but I think there may be some society related differences between our countries. I have lived in the U.S. my whole life and lately I have been getting the feeling that the atmosphere is changing here in a bad way. Maybe it's just my perspective, but I have been feeling it for a while now. I can't speak for the U.K. though, never been there. I just don't think it has anything to do with guns really. I think it has a lot to do with mental states, how people are raised, our country's 'priorities' and general pressure levels among other things.

For example, we had the terrible killing in California a few weeks ago where a 12 year old boy stabbed his 8 year old sister:
Brother arrested in fatal stabbing of 8 year-old girl in Valley Springs | 89.3 KPCC

Then today a 15 year old boy was arrested in Utah for stabbing his two younger siblings to death:
15-year-old Utah boy arrested in death of two younger brothers - U.S. News

And two d-bags stole a teenagers iPad in Las Vegas recently and accidentally dragged the victim and killed him by running him over with their car:
Two men arrested in killing over iPad in Las Vegas - U.S. News

Each of these situations is worrisome and none involved guns.

I haven't figured out what it all means but I feel like there's something there. Maybe it's human nature, I don't know but there is definitely something ugly lurking out there within us ("us" again meaning collectively, not you me or anyone else in this forum specifically). I just can't decide if it's actually increasing in frequency or if it's just a matter of information being more readily accessible.

Agreed.............. So its not just me the world is going mad.
I have no answers as to why other than maybe the system we live under is becoming very sick and slowly falling apart... well that and the wide spread over prescription of mood controlling drugs.

That however can not explain this current act of violence.

 

[Grifynne]

Agreed.............. So its not just me the world is going mad.

I think so, unless it is you and I who are somehow going mad. lol

Prescription drugs and the crap they put in food have been two factors that I am highly suspicious of. I suspect it is probably a combination of things, though.

 

[pixelsmith]

I think so, unless it is you and I who are somehow going mad. lol

Prescription drugs and the crap they put in food have been two factors that I am highly suspicious of. I suspect it is probably a combination of things, though.

Bingo. Prescription drugs, aspartame and fluoride are all dangerous and quite prevalent in the USA.

 

[stonehart]

Bingo. Prescription drugs, aspartame and fluoride are all dangerous and quite prevalent in the USA.

That I guess is a big difference between our nations where these substances and availability are concerned. Prescription drugs are very controlled and can not just be prescribed at will by doctors, there is also no fluoride in our water .... but as for aspartame I wish that shit was blanket banded.

The honest truth is I have not eaten Mc Donald's, KFC, Burger King etc in years and not ever going to again.. (Don't get me started on Monsanto!)

Why?

Well for a start the shit is extremely bad for you and I have problems with the corporations for which they represent. .... Said it before and I will say it again.. if you want to fight the machine then stop buying their products.
If the world in which we live is becoming insane and we want some one or thing to blame then here is the thing.... look in a mirror.... it is our complicity in the system that perpetuates this crazy situation.

Once I would have found that sort of statement funny........ now I just want to cry.

 

[mike]

God bless ?

I hope he doesnt bless me the same way ?

As for the debate on guns and CCTV, jack the ripper did worse and they were not a factor.

He has one child not two.

Poor bastard, shocking way to die

These asshats wanted to spark a war in london, and they came close to pulling it off.
Anti-Muslim reprisals after Woolwich attack | UK news | The Guardian

Heres video of the perps getting their just deserts

Woolwich attack: Watch shocking video of terrorists charging at police car in attempt to kill WPC - Mirror Online

 

[stonehart]

God bless ?

I hope he doesnt bless me the same way ?

As for the debate on guns and CCTV, jack the ripper did worse and they were not a factor.

He has one child not two.

Poor bastard, shocking way to die

These asshats wanted to spark a war in london, and they came close to pulling it off.
Anti-Muslim reprisals after Woolwich attack | UK news | The Guardian

Heres video of the perps getting their just deserts

Woolwich attack: Watch shocking video of terrorists charging at police car in attempt to kill WPC - Mirror Online

Feels odd to say this but good they executed the scum on the spot... hate me for that comment but hell the world is better off without them.

 

[mike]

No both perps were taken alive. recovering in hospital as we speak