Rebuttal

[Mystery Rider]

I am doing this comment only as a rebuttal to Kandinsky in a thread on the Jacobs-Woods debate as it was closed up, not as a thread on that subject.

My references to Freud etc., may be out of date but they are still very relevant, and there are more recent references that can used (e.g., "Hidden Side of Psychiatry" by Gary Null, PhD (garynull.org), a good exposé of psychiatry as it points out its many abuses and it says, "Millions of individuals are being grievously harmed by the mental health profession, and it's time that we as a society faced this."; “Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology”, edited by Scott Lilienfeld et al (2003)). And I am not dismissing various schools of psychology and this has nothing to do with vindicating Dr. Jacobs. I was simply responding to the comment that professional therapists are supposedly bound by a code of ethics.


I don't know anything about Stuart Appelle but Susan Clancy and the like make ludicrous claims based on fallacies that are easily debunked and ridiculed and no one can take them seriously.


I never ever, no way, no how, make straw man arguments. It is skeptics who do that and it is standard procedure for them, for instance, saying that 1 case or 2 makes hypnosis or the abduction phenomenon invalid.


And rationalism and skepticism don't go together, they are 2 opposites. Skeptics pretend to be debunkers but haven't been able to debunk anything and they are obscurantists.

End of story.

 

[Kandinsky]

You're entitled to rebut my points and on a forum it's expected. From what I gather from this post, you have issues with psychiatry and clinical psychology that colors your judgement. Scott Lilienfield et al have raised valid concerns about clinical practices as they relate to child abuse. They've done this from within the field of psychology and psychiatry in particular and using academic references. They don't seek to rule out the validity or positive aspects of the entire field.

I wasn't familiar with Gary Null or his work. From your quote, it seems hard to accept a professional would make such a claim. With that in mind, I had a quick look and the Gary Null who shows up is a man with the claim that AIDS is a myth and can be cured by vitamins....that he sells. I'll have to look further, but I wrote last year about a similar person who was exploiting the HIV problem in South Africa by selling vitamins as a cure. Perhaps it's the wrong person? I don't know. If it is the same person, his concerns about the mental health profession are misplaced to the extent he should be grateful not to be prison for causing death in pursuit of profit.

I'd appreciate more details about your concerns regarding Susan Clancy et al. I have several problems with the studies' methodology, but find the work very interesting. What's more, academic studies into the abduction phenomena are few and far between. I'm aware of fewer than ten papers, but there could be more.

By referring to 'straw man' arguments, I meant that your posts make it clear what you are against...not what you are for. Even in this post, you've wrongly cited people to criticise psychiatry and psychology. You've fired a few rounds at skeptics and debunkers without explaining what they are skeptic about or whom/what they are debunking. I assumed you were defending Dr Jacobs and yet, in this post, you distance yourself from that position.

I apologise if I've somehow mischaracterised your intentions or message. If there are further errors in this post feel free to correct them, but please be clearer. If I've overlooked any other points let me know.

All the best.

 

[Ron Collins]

I wasn't familiar with Gary Null or his work. From your quote, it seems hard to accept a professional would make such a claim. With that in mind, I had a quick look and the Gary Null who shows up is a man with the claim that AIDS is a myth and can be cured by vitamins....that he sells. I'll have to look further, but I wrote last year about a similar person who was exploiting the HIV problem in South Africa by selling vitamins as a cure. Perhaps it's the wrong person? I don't know. If it is the same person, his concerns about the mental health profession are misplaced to the extent he should be grateful not to be prison for causing death in pursuit of profit.

From what I gather from the site and listening only sporadically, he supports a position that the HIV virus may not cause AIDS, the tests to identify whether a person has AIDS are flawed and wildly inaccurate, and that there is no proof that the drug cocktails aren't causing illness rather than helping to cure it. Also, he thinks that the mainstream media is in bed with and is mainly funded by pharmaceutical companies. I didn't find any links to vitamins and the parts I listened to were not particularly self aggrandizing.

He does seem to be a sounding board for the safer conspiracy theories (not a single mention of UFO or paranormal stuff) and popular political topics.

 

[Kandinsky]

He does seem to be a sounding board for the safer conspiracy theories (not a single mention of UFO or paranormal stuff) and popular political topics.

I just don't know enough to form a definite opinion about the guy. It was Mathias Rath, not Null who sells vitamins as a cure for the symptoms of AIDS in S Africa and it was 2009 not last year when I posted about him. If need be, I'll read up on the guy and get a balanced view.

Wikimedia Error for anyone else unfamiliar with him.

 

[Elendil]

Let's talk about Appelle and Clancy. While I really like Stuart Appelle - I find his article [FONT=&quot]from the Journal of UFO Studies 95/96 very leveled and unbiased, I don't think you can put Clancy and him in the same basket. This guy seems unbiased, and Clancy comes off as a woman with a huge bias. There are articles by Friedman, Hopkins and Jacobs with reactions to her book. I managed to get only the introduction from her book and can't remember if Friedman, Hopkins and Jacobs critiques are totally all right. Gonna have to revisit that and also read the whole book because I found it on Gigapedia. But they pointed to some interesting stuff. There's also an interesting article about her book by Mark Rodeghier in the International UFO Reporter, Volume 30, Number 2...

I wish I could somehow get the Jacobs-edited book where Appelle also wrote, that would be an interesting read...[/FONT]

 

[Sloppy Joe]

I don't know much about this debate at all, nor do I presume to know much of anything at all about the people you're referencing. However, this Gary Null guy... I also did a quick search and I understand why he claims his vitamins help. The primary ingredient in his vitamins are alkaline in nature. For a very long time it's been know that germs, bacteria and viruses can't survive in our bodies if we have a higher alkalinity. There is actual science that backs up alkalinity and colloidal silver as being germ killers. There are proven cases of AIDS being cured through alkalinity. However, pharmaceuticals would lose tons of money (and the government in the long run) if it was that easy to cure AIDS.

Also, contrary to popular belief as well, colloidal silver doesn't cause argyria. The few people around the world who get argyria don't realize what they're doing. They're attempting to make colloidal silver straight out of tap water. Tap water contains crap tons of chemicals and added minerals. The added minerals chemically alter the electrified silver as it enters the water and changes it's molecular structure. This turns it more into a heavy metal that can't exit your system and eventually deposits into your skin. This is argyria, another fact the government doesn't want you to know. I've done A LOT of research into colloidal silver recently. I'm talking like nearly every day for the last 2 months. I'm 100% certain this is a very sound science. You just don't use tap water to make colloidal silver. You NEED distilled water so you don't create another heavier metal when electrifying the pure silver.

If any of your hangups are over the science I just mentioned to you, I encourage you to do your own research. There are seriously crap tons of videos and people on youtube who regularly drink colloidal silver. And they're all fairly intelligent and schooled about colloidal silver and the science behind it. Not only that, there are also crap tons of articles all over the web from legitimate sources. I've also been studying blood electrification a lot recently too. Interesting stuff to say the least. If you want to talk "alternatives to modern medicine", I'm seriously your guy. This is the stuff I research the most.

 

[Ron Collins]

I don't know much about this debate at all, nor do I presume to know much of anything at all about the people you're referencing. However, this Gary Null guy... I also did a quick search and I understand why he claims his vitamins help. The primary ingredient in his vitamins are alkaline in nature. For a very long time it's been know that germs, bacteria and viruses can't survive in our bodies if we have a higher alkalinity. There is actual science that backs up alkalinity and colloidal silver as being germ killers. There are proven cases of AIDS being cured through alkalinity. However, pharmaceuticals would lose tons of money (and the government in the long run) if it was that easy to cure AIDS.

Would you care to provide some sourcing to this? I have never heard this alkalinity thing before. I would like to see where there are "proven cases of AIDS being cured through alkalinity".

 

[Sloppy Joe]

Would you care to provide some sourcing to this? I have never heard this alkalinity thing before. I would like to see where there are "proven cases of AIDS being cured through alkalinity".

The problem with finding "testimonials" for any of the research done is that it's illegal to claim a cure to AIDS. If you were to even go to a US Patent Office and say "Hey, I want to patent a cure for AIDS. Here's all the research, clinical studies results and what the product/medicine does" they'll deny you a patent. There are a few things that you actually can't patent because it's forbidden to be patented. Because AIDS is considered an "incurable" disease (and because the government and pharma would like to keep it that way), it happens to be one of those things. I searched for testimonials, but came up short. However, I found a few reads on alkalinity and colloidal silver, the benefits and their effects on viral and bacterial infections. I'd search for more and some of the studies that have been done, but I'm going to bed in a few minutes and even then, along with the testimonials, they won't allow for the studies to be posted because AIDS is "incurable". So it's illegal to make a 'false' medical claim.

Blood Alkalinity
Articles of Health: Healthy Alkaline Blood Creates A Healthy Body
http://www.mcgwiresfitness.com/high-blood-pressure-alkaline.pdf

Colloidal Silver
Colloidal silver
http://www.alternativehealingtools.com/colloidal%20silver/aids.htm

The last link you kind of have to tolerate. It looks a mess, but after skimming, it looks fine to me.

 

[Mystery Rider]

Kandinsky,

OK, but there are several other errors in your interpretations. I was not at all distancing myself from Dr. Jacobs and no way would I do that, I was merely pointing out that the mental health professions have nothing to do with Dr. Jacobs himself since he is not a mental health professional. And I do not have issues, or problems if that's what you mean, with psychiatry and clinical psychology, I have objections and very valid ones at that. I do not at all wrongly cite people who criticize psychiatry or clinical psychology. I could in fact cite more of them, like Eysenck and Masson, but you would certainly also find fault with them that is irrelevant to their claims. But I do not believe, as Masson does, that psychotherapy should be gotten rid of. And it is clear what the skeptics are skeptical about: UFOs, and most everything else for that matter. And I also made it clear that they are not debunkers and haven't debunked anything--they are the ones who are debunked.

And to downplay or dismiss the widespread and systemic abusiveness, incompetence, and mental illness that characterize pychiatrists does a grave disservice to the 10s of mlns. of victims of psychiatry. To deny the reality of the abduction experience, as many skeptics do, is harmful to abductees and, in many cases, is even abusive.

Also, apparently, Dr.Null isn't selling any vitamins and even he were, vitamins are certainly not poison and they are certainly not deadly.

As well, I asked Dr. Jacobs, perhaps 2 or 3 years ago, how many abductees remember the experience consciously and he guesstimated about 40% but even if it was 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, or 1/10, skeptical claims would still be invalid.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I'm still liking the word 'obscurantists'