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Scott Ramsey Aztec show
- Thread starter henderst
- Start date
Free episodes:
henderst said:
I agree, but, though tempted, I didn't want to belabor the obvious. I'm sure David was also tempted
In any case, he's done some commendable work on trying to nail this down, so I await his forthcoming book with interest.
Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
henderst said:
The burden of proof is on the one making a claim. If someone says something did or did not occur and does not site evidence to support their conclusions, they are a believer, or being dogmatic since their claim isn't backed up by evidence. This goes for "believers" and "skeptics" (disbelievers).
I haven't listened to the show yet, but will Thrs.
Loose Leaf Tea
Skilled Investigator
Prove you were making croutons...
Miah
Skilled Investigator
I just finished this episode myself and couldn't help but think; WOW! I have never heard of this case before. And yet, no wonder! I am all about in-depth research, but 12yrs working on that book is ridiculous!
What if he died, or someone got to him before he released all of this information... it would be gone for good.
I was really impressed with the slab of concrete alleged to be used for the crane, that is damn-near physical evidence, at least that something happened there. I wonder if he has tried to trace back the company who would have been contracted to put the slab there (if the military didn't do it in-house that is). I'm excited to hear what the test results say about it.
Hurry up already!
What if he died, or someone got to him before he released all of this information... it would be gone for good.
I was really impressed with the slab of concrete alleged to be used for the crane, that is damn-near physical evidence, at least that something happened there. I wonder if he has tried to trace back the company who would have been contracted to put the slab there (if the military didn't do it in-house that is). I'm excited to hear what the test results say about it.
Hurry up already!
Schuyler said:
It is about 53 min into the interview on the podcast. David just said "mm hmmm", which made me chuckle. First he said something like "prove that the documents are fake", then he said "prove it (Aztec) didn't happen". You cannot prove that something did not happen - only that it did.
However, I am picking just because it is a pet peeve of mine, overall I thought the interview was very good and it is an interesting case.
Hope the croutons turned out good
Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
henderst said:Schuyler said:
It is about 53 min into the interview on the podcast. David just said "mm hmmm", which made me chuckle. First he said something like "prove that the documents are fake", then he said "prove it (Aztec) didn't happen". You cannot prove that something did not happen - only that it did.
However, I am picking just because it is a pet peeve of mine, overall I thought the interview was very good and it is an interesting case.
Hope the croutons turned out good
That isn't always true. If someone says I murdered Fred, prove it didn't happen, and then you show up with Fred, that proves it didn't happen.
Apocalypto
Paranormal Maven
It was an interesting show. I hadn't heard of the Aztec crash, so it intrigued me. After the show I googled "AZTEC UFO" and this was the 3rd link that came up:
http://www.nmsr.org/aztec.htm
Some interesting debunkage in there. One of the great points David mentions from time to time on the Roswell crash is how these things get lost in the sands of time and become more and more shadowy, eventually becoming almost impossible to decipher. Aztec also falls into that category. Interesting stuff, but the story is so old now it's really hard to tell what's real and what's bullshit.
I'm more interested in newer sightings. O'Hare, anyone?
http://www.nmsr.org/aztec.htm
Some interesting debunkage in there. One of the great points David mentions from time to time on the Roswell crash is how these things get lost in the sands of time and become more and more shadowy, eventually becoming almost impossible to decipher. Aztec also falls into that category. Interesting stuff, but the story is so old now it's really hard to tell what's real and what's bullshit.
I'm more interested in newer sightings. O'Hare, anyone?
I hear what you are saying but I think the only thing you have proven is that the person making the claim in that case is a liar.
But you are right, it depends on the nature of the claim being made.
It is impossible to "prove" something did not happen because there is no actual "proof" for an event that never happened. You may have proof that a contrary event occured making the first claim impossible, such as Fred showing up alive.
Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
I hear what you are saying but I think the only thing you have proven is that the person making the claim in that case is a liar.
But you are right, it depends on the nature of the claim being made.
It is impossible to "prove" something did not happen because there is no actual "proof" for an event that never happened. You may have proof that a contrary event occured making the first claim impossible, such as Fred showing up alive.
The person would have proved Fred is alive and that the event of murder didn't happen. The person might be liar as you indicated or delusional.
Usually not being able to prove a negative falls under the scenario of the existence of something. Like bigfoot.
/edit to fix quotes
auntiegrav
Skilled Investigator
Let's skip over the "can't prove a negative thing for a while." Kinda old, I think.
Moving on....
Over-reinforcing concrete is a curious data point on this sample. Concrete doesn't reach full strength under normal conditions for about a month. If they were in a hurry to get something done, they would have used extra reinforcement (or a thicker pour) in order to compensate for a shorter time frame.
This fits with a recovery operation, I think. It may also fit a lot of other things, but curious to know what.
The weight of the object may not have determined the size of the crane so much as the reach needed to get to the middle of a 100 foot disc. An F-14 is something like 70 feet long, and 60,000 lbs fully loaded. This is supposedly something larger and possibly heavier (you don't have to skimp so much on materials if you have anti-gravity technology). That's a pretty big crane if the drive system isn't working. Perhaps it was something terrestrial with centrifugal jet drive, then it would be lighter, but still cumbersome.
Moving on....
Over-reinforcing concrete is a curious data point on this sample. Concrete doesn't reach full strength under normal conditions for about a month. If they were in a hurry to get something done, they would have used extra reinforcement (or a thicker pour) in order to compensate for a shorter time frame.
This fits with a recovery operation, I think. It may also fit a lot of other things, but curious to know what.
The weight of the object may not have determined the size of the crane so much as the reach needed to get to the middle of a 100 foot disc. An F-14 is something like 70 feet long, and 60,000 lbs fully loaded. This is supposedly something larger and possibly heavier (you don't have to skimp so much on materials if you have anti-gravity technology). That's a pretty big crane if the drive system isn't working. Perhaps it was something terrestrial with centrifugal jet drive, then it would be lighter, but still cumbersome.
Aponi
Paranormal Novice
[size=medium]"Concrete doesn't reach full strength under normal conditions for about a month. If they were in a hurry to get something done, they would have used extra reinforcement (or a thicker pour) in order to compensate for a shorter time frame."[/size]
Good point, but actually that still makes sense. I believe Scott said the concrete was roughly 10x the normal strength. If they needed to use the pad before it had reached its full strength (30 days), wouldn't it make sense to create a much stronger pad? That way, even before curing to its final strength, it could be strong enough to handle the task at hand. Just a thought...
Good point, but actually that still makes sense. I believe Scott said the concrete was roughly 10x the normal strength. If they needed to use the pad before it had reached its full strength (30 days), wouldn't it make sense to create a much stronger pad? That way, even before curing to its final strength, it could be strong enough to handle the task at hand. Just a thought...
Schuyler
Misanthrope
henderst said:Hope the croutons turned out good
Hey, my dog thought so. I can't prove it, though. Next time I'll take pictures, though someone will claim it's CGI.
On the negative proof thing, I know some are tired of the issue, and I appreciate that you can prove a negative by bringing Fred to the party. I think the issue is not so much that it can be done, but that the onus of proving X is on the person claiming X happened. It's not so much a matter of logic as it is one of responsibility.
auntiegrav
Skilled Investigator
Or proving that someone else killed Fred.Schuyler said:henderst said:Hope the croutons turned out good
Hey, my dog thought so. I can't prove it, though. Next time I'll take pictures, though someone will claim it's CGI.
On the negative proof thing, I know some are tired of the issue, and I appreciate that you can prove a negative by bringing Fred to the party.
Which doesn't mean you didn't help them, though....;-)
Poor Fred. He's probably gettin' kinda worried about now.
X is innocent until proven reality?
P
Paul Kimball
Guest
I was disappointed to hear Scott say that I'm guilty of exaggerating, and then use some alleged statement I made that I had been to his home and "seen all of his UFO documents". Yes, I have been to his home - I was there to interview him for a film that was funded by Scott and friends of his. I have never said I saw all his UFO documents - I have said that I saw all of the documents that Scott saw fit to show me. Considering I was making a film funded by Scott and his friends about his pet case, I would like to think that the docs he showed me were the best ones - ergo I would conclude that all of the other ones he has in boxes somewhere don't really amount to much.
For those who want to get a taste of why the Aztec case is so much hokum, type "Aztec" in the search engine at my blog, and all sorts of stuff that Scott and Frank Warren don't want to talk about, or which they casually gloss over, will pop up. As just one example, Scott is fond of referring to Frank Scully as one of the pre-eminent reporters of his time, which is absolute bunk. See: http://www.redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2005/03/being-frank-about-frank-scully-that-is.html
Scott's a nice fellow, but in my opinion his ability as a researcher is compromised by what Karl Pflock called the "will to believe", which has led him and a few others to resurrect a case that was properly dead and buried a long time ago.
For those who want to get a taste of why the Aztec case is so much hokum, type "Aztec" in the search engine at my blog, and all sorts of stuff that Scott and Frank Warren don't want to talk about, or which they casually gloss over, will pop up. As just one example, Scott is fond of referring to Frank Scully as one of the pre-eminent reporters of his time, which is absolute bunk. See: http://www.redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2005/03/being-frank-about-frank-scully-that-is.html
Scott's a nice fellow, but in my opinion his ability as a researcher is compromised by what Karl Pflock called the "will to believe", which has led him and a few others to resurrect a case that was properly dead and buried a long time ago.