Silly question....

[Xylo]

I've been mostly lurking and not posting for a while. But really I have gone through a "dry phase" in my interest in the paranormal, so I took a break. I don't know if I've rekindled my interest or what but anyways I've been thinking alot about time, astrophysics and the universe. I listened to the show that featured Mr. Eno (not sure if I spelled that correctly) and that helped me form this question, which I pose for discussion;

If the universe is without boundary and is still expanding, wouldn't that mean, according to the laws of relativity, that all times are existing at the same moment?

I'm sure it sounds silly, but if our universe is still expanding, and it cannot expand faster than light, there must be corners of the universe in which the big bang is just no happening. Therefore, all time would have to exist at the same time.

Any thoughts?

 

[Wade]

I'll see your silly question and raise you a bunch more....

there are a number of physicists that believe the universe may be contracting. So i posed this question elsewhere if the universe were contracting would that indicate reverse entropy and what happens with our concept of time at that point ? If it were possible that by time this supposed universal contraction hit our corner of the galaxy, if indeed it did. would our three dimensional time frame run in reverse ? would things become undone ? would cracked eggs go back in the shell ? would past events become the present, would Lincoln become UN assassinated or yet to happen ? would we no longer remember what we once considered past events because the act of undoing, means they were never done in the first place? i wonder if this contraction could stop at a certain point , maybe lose it's inertia so to speak. If we could travel to that part what would happen?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

As far as I am aware though, 'outside' our universe just does not exist. It's not like there is never-ending real estate that the known universe is expanding 'into'. Our universe is all there is, and it can expand to have more measurable size relative to us, but it is not expanding into 'empty space' - whatever size the universe is, that is all there is, nothing 'outside' it. In fact there is no 'outside'.

But the fact is, however we try to imagine such things, we cannot properly do so. I think there are things that a human brain will never be able to comprehend.

Also Xylo, I can't be sure but I think you may be wrong in saying the universe cannot expand faster than light. But we aren't talking about necessarily light, or x-rays, or even matter, moving at light speed. The expansion is the expansion of the place where these things can exist, not the expansion of these things, if you get my meaning. Because we are just talking about more and more space, I'm not sure the light speed max applies?
I could be wrong and certainly am no expert, or even moderately well read on anything current in this area. But these are the philosophical/physics questions that are really fun to ponder, and are most certainly never dumb questions! In fact, they might be some of the best questions ever.

 

[Randall]

I've been mostly lurking and not posting for a while.

Glad to see you decided to join the fray

If the universe is without boundary and is still expanding, wouldn't that mean, according to the laws of relativity, that all times are existing at the same moment?
I'm sure it sounds silly, but if our universe is still expanding, and it cannot expand faster than light, there must be corners of the universe in which the big bang is just no happening. Therefore, all time would have to exist at the same time.
Any thoughts?

For my thoughts: We should first identify the context in which we are discussing the topic "universe". Here's a good place to begin: http://ufopages.com/Content/Reference/Universe-01a.htm ( NOTE: Requires a full sized, full featured browser, not handhelds or phones ). Different contexts have different models of time associated with them. So once we have the context of our discussion on the universe worked out we can then move on to the concept of time.

 

[Xylo]

I'll see your silly question and raise you a bunch more....

there are a number of physicists that believe the universe may be contracting. So i posed this question elsewhere if the universe were contracting would that indicate reverse entropy and what happens with our concept of time at that point ? If it were possible that by time this supposed universal contraction hit our corner of the galaxy, if indeed it did. would our three dimensional time frame run in reverse ? would things become undone ? would cracked eggs go back in the shell ? would past events become the present, would Lincoln become UN assassinated or yet to happen ? would we no longer remember what we once considered past events because the act of undoing, means they were never done in the first place? i wonder if this contraction could stop at a certain point , maybe lose it's inertia so to speak. If we could travel to that part what would happen?

That's precisely my point, made in reverse but still the same. And it's quite something to ponder, isn't it? Is our space time dependent upon the expansion or contraction of the known universe? Is our relationship with the contiuuum dependent entirely upon that continuum itself? Hard to say from a theoretical standpoint simply because we only have one frame of reference.

The whole crux of this is me trying to think outside of the box a little bit and explain all these "paranormal" phenomena just to myself. And I can't help but think that, all times exist in this moment.

As far as I am aware though, 'outside' our universe just does not exist. It's not like there is never-ending real estate that the known universe is expanding 'into'. Our universe is all there is, and it can expand to have more measurable size relative to us, but it is not expanding into 'empty space' - whatever size the universe is, that is all there is, nothing 'outside' it. In fact there is no 'outside'.

And that is a valid though and a very human way of understanding it. But if we think of a Multiverse theory, then there has to be something outside of it. We may not be able to understand it, but it would have to be.

But the fact is, however we try to imagine such things, we cannot properly do so. I think there are things that a human brain will never be able to comprehend.

You put it into words better than I could sir.

Also Xylo, I can't be sure but I think you may be wrong in saying the universe cannot expand faster than light. But we aren't talking about necessarily light, or x-rays, or even matter, moving at light speed. The expansion is the expansion of the place where these things can exist, not the expansion of these things, if you get my meaning. Because we are just talking about more and more space, I'm not sure the light speed max applies?
I could be wrong and certainly am no expert, or even moderately well read on anything current in this area. But these are the philosophical/physics questions that are really fun to ponder, and are most certainly never dumb questions! In fact, they might be some of the best questions ever.

I was proposing this in keeping with Einstein's Theory of Relativity. According to that, the speed of light IS the universal speed limit. However, if it isn't true, and the universe is expanding or contracting faster than the speed of light, I think it could validate my idea even more so. Because that would mean that time doesn't even exist, in such a way as we know it. That the fabric of spacetime would have to be stretched at the ends, so to speak. Meaning that if one pushed at the edges of faster than light, it might curve back in on itself. You might end before you began.

Sorry, I'm thinking out loud. Trying to wrap my head around this subject from different angles.

Glad to see you decided to join the fray

Gonna try to be more active again. No promises, since I'm not sure where this field has gotten to or is going.

For my thoughts: We should first identify the context in which we are discussing the topic "universe". Here's a good place to begin: http://ufopages.com/Content/Reference/Universe-01a.htm ( NOTE: Requires a full sized, full featured browser, not handhelds or phones ). Different contexts have different models of time associated with them. So once we have the context of our discussion on the universe worked out we can then move on to the concept of time.

I'll look at that tomorrow and comment a bit more in depth.

 

[Wade]

I would add to that being that our concept of time is intertwined with the space we occupy would any additional dimensions that conceivably exist be independent of that? While I don't want to turn this into a interdimensional beings thread, If there was life outside our dimension perhaps these beings wouldn't even be aware of the concept of time. If any dimensions did exist they apparently are all around but miniature in size. Given that, I'm reminded of early contact reports when people mentioned that craft would apparently appear and and disappear not unlike an old cathode ray tube tv.

But i know what you mean about trying to wrap your brain around certain things especially the concept of past, present and future all occupying the same space, in other words there is no past or present, at this very second the twin towers are coming down, Lincoln may be giving his Gettysburg address, John Kennedy is bopping Marilyn Monroe and Guttenberg is building his press. A few years ago when i first joined this forum i frequently spoke about how i would keep myself up all night trying to work out some of the things you've mentioned (plus how life works, the old free will predetermination thing which i wonder if isn't part of the equation here. I mean could how we arrive at our ultimate destiny fits into this whole thing ?)

Unfortunately because I am not classically trained I always struggled to arrive at satisfying conclusions for the most part. Ultimately I didn't put much more thought into it...until now.

 

[manxman]

As far as I am aware though, 'outside' our universe just does not exist. It's not like there is never-ending real estate that the known universe is expanding 'into'. Our universe is all there is, and it can expand to have more measurable size relative to us, but it is not expanding into 'empty space' - whatever size the universe is, that is all there is, nothing 'outside' it. In fact there is no 'outside'.

But the fact is, however we try to imagine such things, we cannot properly do so. I think there are things that a human brain will never be able to comprehend.

Also Xylo, I can't be sure but I think you may be wrong in saying the universe cannot expand faster than light. But we aren't talking about necessarily light, or x-rays, or even matter, moving at light speed. The expansion is the expansion of the place where these things can exist, not the expansion of these things, if you get my meaning. Because we are just talking about more and more space, I'm not sure the light speed max applies?
I could be wrong and certainly am no expert, or even moderately well read on anything current in this area. But these are the philosophical/physics questions that are really fun to ponder, and are most certainly never dumb questions! In fact, they might be some of the best questions ever.

This part makes the faster than light speeds more interesting Goggs as thought experiment.

I think you explained that siple but sweet.

'''''As far as I am aware though, 'outside' our universe just does not exist. It's not like there is never-ending real estate that the known universe is expanding 'into'. Our universe is all there is, and it can expand to have more measurable size relative to us, but it is not expanding into 'empty space' - whatever size the universe is, that is all there is, nothing 'outside' it. In fact there is no 'outside'.'''''

Now the thought experiment, if faster than light/expansion speed were ever possible, we would find out whats outside our bubble, wouldnt we?.

 

[Xylo]

I would add to that being that our concept of time is intertwined with the space we occupy would any additional dimensions that conceivably exist be independent of that? While I don't want to turn this into a interdimensional beings thread, If there was life outside our dimension perhaps these beings wouldn't even be aware of the concept of time. If any dimensions did exist they apparently are all around but miniature in size. Given that, I'm reminded of early contact reports when people mentioned that craft would apparently appear and and disappear not unlike an old cathode ray tube tv.

But that could be more than just a dimensional shift? It could be cloaking or some sort, or rapid acceleration that surpasses our ability to actually see it.

But i know what you mean about trying to wrap your brain around certain things especially the concept of past, present and future all occupying the same space, in other words there is no past or present, at this very second the twin towers are coming down, Lincoln may be giving his Gettysburg address, John Kennedy is bopping Marilyn Monroe and Guttenberg is building his press.

Precisely this. If all times coexist, it could certainly explain a great deal of what we consider to be "paranormal."
Ghosts? Ripples in time space.
Some UFOs? Ripples in time space.
Out of place artifacts? Ripples in time space.
Premonitions? Ripples in time space.

The list could go on. But I think my point is that the co-existence, if you will, of all time could possibly be some sort of a unified theory of the paranormal. Again, I don't know. I don't have any answers. I'm just thinking out loud and trying to present these ideas to a forum of people that think outside of the box.

A few years ago when i first joined this forum i frequently spoke about how i would keep myself up all night trying to work out some of the things you've mentioned (plus how life works, the old free will predetermination thing which i wonder if isn't part of the equation here. I mean could how we arrive at our ultimate destiny fits into this whole thing ?)

I did that schtick after reading Pirsig. I spent two sleepless weeks trying to figure out definitions of concepts...never quite got anywhere other with it. But I guess I did keep myself entertained well before the advent of the internet, or the advent of my exposure to it.

Unfortunately because I am not classically trained I always struggled to arrive at satisfying conclusions for the most part. Ultimately I didn't put much more thought into it...until now.

I've always been able to theorize things, but alas I don't have the skill to put these ideas into mathematical theories. It's all Greek letters to me too. But I like to think and ponder about some of the things that we humans seem to not define but "know" when we see them. (Back to Pirsig and the idea of "quality" again.)

 

[Sand]

wouldn't that mean, according to the laws of relativity, that all times are existing at the same moment?

in other words there is no past or present, at this very second the twin towers are coming down, Lincoln may be giving his Gettysburg address, John Kennedy is bopping Marilyn Monroe and Guttenberg is building his press.

Thankfully for us, Einstein’s work already speaks to these questions. If you look into the concepts of relativity and spacetime I think you’ll find that those concepts are generally in line with the main underlying idea I believe you are trying to get to. Though it’s not that all times are existing at the same moment. It’s that all moments are existing equally within spacetime. Based on relativity, there is no mechanism to support an objective “now”. The moment you were born, the moment you will die, and the moment you are reading this are all existing equally within spacetime. There is no mechanism that singles out a particular moment and gives it a special status of “now”. It is your perception of that moment that gives it the status of “now” to you. You are still sitting there, typing the initial post of this thread, absolutely certain that each of those moments is “now”, just as there is someone out there typing the first post of 2016 absolutely certain that moment is “now”.

In spacetime, time is of course a dimension. (By the way, all of the universe is made up of two basic components, energy and spacetime – matter being a form of energy). To get a feel for there being no objective “now”, you can draw an analogy to the idea of “here”. If you are standing in DC, that location has a very special status to you. It is your “here”. Though of course there is nothing occurring within structure of the universe that is pointing at that location and differentiating it from every other location by making it “here”. The same is occurring with “now”, though it is more difficult to grasp because we are trying to envision something in four dimensions. As Wade said, as far as the universe is concerned, there is no objective past, present, and future.

Also subjective is what we consider to be occurring in a given moment. If you are standing and I am moving away from you, the events that I would consider to be occurring in a moment and the events that you would consider to be occurring would be different. Though this only becomes apparent when we are separated by very great distances.

In popular presentations on General and Special Relativity we typically are told about the affects that gravity and velocity have on slowing clocks, etc. For some reason this aspect of no objective “now”, no objective past present and future, is not often presented. There was documentary called “What Time Is It?” hosted by physicist Brian Cox which came out a few years ago which discussed it during the last 10 minutes or so. Years ago there was a PBS Nova I think called “It’s About Time” that I recall discussed it.

 

[SRL+]

I’ve always wondered just how lucky we humans are to be perched upon the very tippy top of infinity.

 

[Stagger Lee]

While this discussion may be way out of my league, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that the universe may be expanding -or that there is nothing outside the universe, no real estate to expand into. If one were able to travel to the edge of the universe, would your vehicle crash into a wall (like Truman trying to escape in his sail boat in the film "The Truman show") or if the universe is ever expanding, tis doing so at such a speed that one could never travel beyond the tip?
I am reminded of another film, The Fallen, where John Goodman and Denzel Washington are sitting and discussing the meaning of life, and one says to the other that once a person figures it all out, they cease to exist.

 

[SRL+]

That’s a pretty good question. What gets me is that nothing that we experience is in real time. When there’s a new discovery such as a death or birth of a star its taken place millions if not billions of years ago. While stargazing sometimes I’ll think “man.., there are a lot of stars up there, wonder how many no longer exist?” It takes 79.3 minutes for light (photons) from Saturn to reach Earth.

 

[Stagger Lee]

That’s a pretty good question. What gets me is that nothing that we experience is in real time. When there’s a new discovery such as a death or birth of a star its taken place millions if not billions of years ago. While stargazing sometimes I’ll think “man.., there are a lot of stars up there, wonder how many no longer exist?” It takes 79.3 minutes for light (photons) from Saturn to reach Earth.

I often think the same thing when looking up at the night sky. I also wonder how a star so far away that it may no longer exist, could possibly shine a point of light in our sky every night.

 

[technomage]

I think the balloon expanding may be a good metaphor for the expanding universe. So an ant on the balloon can't get off the balloon or beyond the balloon, but the balloon is getting larger and the distance between the ants on the balloon is getting larger. The expansion of our universe must be occurring at a higher dimension and we never can get to the edge of the universe. Of course, this is just my interpretation of the expansion of the universe and I could be wrong entirely. I don't know if I even believe it myself.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I think time travel is "impossible" for humans "to do" by altering it. Why?...

At every moment we are mapped to some point in the space-time continuum, and the past, present, and future are also mapped to the space time continuum as space-time "unfolds" or "moves" (includes expansion and contractions -black holes) ... BUT in some sense we are one within all the dimensions including time, yet we are separated by our point in time-space too. It's all in infinite motion.

It's an infinite one-way trip within the whole.

Our universe is said to be expanding more rapidly over time, so in theory it seems "our" POV's will all disappear and evaporate into nothingness. If another intelligent life will come to exist x-billions of years from now, then our galaxies light may be too far gone to be known about its existence. Our universe essentially just "winks-out" from "their" POV.

Black holes can warp space and time relative to other points in space-time in the universe. But it is unlikely humans will ever devise a method to travel close enough to a black hole and survive it and be there long enough to warp far into the future and then go somewhere useful as a result. We would need to be able to hibernate for perhaps thousands or millions of years to do it.

Our minds are fantastic adventurers, because we can imagine doing almost anything within our limited points in space-time continuums of infinite expansion from our current POV.

It's all relative from your POV too! In some sense, our minds can warp space and time by thinking about doing it. But can we really build a 'time machine' to do it?

Put a drop of ink in a bowl of water. Can we reverse it backwards? Imagination can! That's why UFO's exist too!

It's all a matter of POV...

 

[Goggs Mackay]

This part makes the faster than light speeds more interesting Goggs as thought experiment.

I think you explained that siple but sweet.

'''''As far as I am aware though, 'outside' our universe just does not exist. It's not like there is never-ending real estate that the known universe is expanding 'into'. Our universe is all there is, and it can expand to have more measurable size relative to us, but it is not expanding into 'empty space' - whatever size the universe is, that is all there is, nothing 'outside' it. In fact there is no 'outside'.'''''

Now the thought experiment, if faster than light/expansion speed were ever possible, we would find out whats outside our bubble, wouldnt we?.

I really don't know. Like most people, for me, trying to keep my mind able to comprehend these concepts, I'm just treading water....

I've just read today (23 Jan) that some scientists in Scotland have succeeded in slowing light speed. The speed of waves alter when the medium they travel in, changes. What is supposedly different in this new experiment is that they slowed down some photons with a target that altered their shape (?) but when they emerged into normal space again, they should have been at normal light speed but they actually remained at the lower speed.
Greater minds than mine will maybe confirm this work and if confirmed, it may change our understanding of 'c' the speed of light.

 

[SRL+]

So apparently once the photon passes through the mask and is re-shaped in slowing it down the photon remains at the reduced speed.

BBC News - Scientists slow the speed of light