Some rational thought with Mike Shermer

[Creepy Green Light]

(I don't endorse FOX news nor watch it typically. And even though I am pro UFO, Shermer typically always makes good points).

 

[Randall]

And even though I am pro UFO, Shermer typically always makes good points ...

The thing is: Being a skeptic is just way too easy. You don't have to interview witnesses. You don't have to go out into the field. You don't have to come up with outside-the-box solutions to try to explain anything. You don't even have to bother to get up and look out the window. All you have to do is sit there in your comfy chair parroting the stereotypical bla bla bla ... It was just a misperception or your imagination or sleep paralysis or whatever.

I know how easy it is because I'm one of the most skeptical ufologists you'll ever meet, and I see all kinds of stuff every day that's easy to write-off. Most of the time I don't even have to do more than a couple of Google searches. It doesn't take any special talent or intelligence or insight.

I was just cleaning up my overstock of UFO books, and the number of skeptical publications filled a whole shelf. That might seem impressive unless you know the rest filled five, 5 shelf book cases. How many skeptics actually take the time to read all the stuff that's out there rather than dismiss it all in one fell swoop? I'd wager not many.

What turned Hynek around was talking to real people day after day after day in an official Air Force investigative capacity. Over the years I've talked with literally hundreds of people in an informal capacity, and nearly everyone knows someone personally who has had a UFO sighting, and the ones I've spoken with who have seen them for themselves haven't come across to me as mentally imbalanced, unintelligent, or jokers, or anything else that would make me think they shouldn't be taken seriously.

Maybe Shermer should remember that cognitive dissonance works both ways. Sure, people who believe nonsense are reluctant to change their mind about it, but then again, people who believe that something is nonsense when it's not are just as reluctant to change their mind about that too. I wonder how many hard-core skeptics would refuse to believe their own eyes and keep it to themselves if they saw an alien craft firsthand? I suspect there would be at least a few.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

The thing is: Being a skeptic is just way too easy. You don't have to interview witnesses. You don't have to go out into the field. You don't have to come up with outside-the-box solutions to try to explain anything. You don't even have to bother to get up and look out the window. All you have to do is sit there in your comfy chair parroting the stereotypical bla bla bla ... It was just a misperception or your imagination or sleep paralysis or whatever.

I know how easy it is because I'm one of the most skeptical ufologists you'll ever meet, and I see all kinds of stuff every day that's easy to write-off. Most of the time I don't even have to do more than a couple of Google searches. It doesn't take any special talent or intelligence or insight.

I was just cleaning up my overstock of UFO books, and the number of skeptical publications filled a whole shelf. That might seem impressive unless you know the rest filled five, 5 shelf book cases. How many skeptics actually take the time to read all the stuff that's out there rather than dismiss it all in one fell swoop? I'd wager not many.

What turned Hynek around was talking to real people day after day after day in an official Air Force investigative capacity. Over the years I've talked with literally hundreds of people in an informal capacity, and nearly everyone knows someone personally who has had a UFO sighting, and the ones I've spoken with who have seen them for themselves haven't come across to me as mentally imbalanced, unintelligent, or jokers, or anything else that would make me think they shouldn't be taken seriously.

Maybe Shermer should remember that cognitive dissonance works both ways. Sure, people who believe nonsense are reluctant to change their mind about it, but then again, people who believe that something is nonsense when it's not are just as reluctant to change theor mind about that too. I wonder how many hard-core skeptics would refuse to believe their own eyes and keep it to themselves if they saw an alien craft firsthand? I suspect there would be at least a few.

I hear you. But I think most of the time Shermer doesn't necessarily say that it's "nonsense" but just "we don't know. He usually says going from "lights in the sky to it was a flying saucer from outer space" is a far stretch. He says it doesn't mean the witness didn't see what they claim, but it's just an "unknown". I agree with some points of his; like just once (Just once please) - can we get the irrifutible footage or photo? All these years and not one?? I'm a believer but it makes me wonder; how is this possible? There's 800 trillion photos videos that are inconclusive or hoaxes, but not one valid one? And then the ones that seem like the "ah ha! We finally got it!" (like Meier, Ed Walters, etc.) are always hoaxes. As Spock would say, this is not logical.

But still I look & hope. When I was 8 years old, I felt comfort that knowing in my lifetime that this mystery would be solved. Or at the very least establish that flying discs from other worlds do exist. Now I'm 44 and were basically back where we were was I was 8.

 

[Randall]

I hear you. But I think most of the time Shermer doesn't necessarily say that it's "nonsense" but just "we don't know. He usually says going from "lights in the sky to it was a flying saucer from outer space" is a far stretch. He says it doesn't mean the witness didn't see what they claim, but it's just an "unknown". I agree with some points of his; like just once (Just once please) - can we get the irrifutible footage or photo? All these years and not one?? I'm a believer but it makes me wonder; how is this possible? There's 800 trillion photos videos that are inconclusive or hoaxes, but not one valid one? And then the ones that seem like the "ah ha! We finally got it!" (like Meier, Ed Walters, etc.) are always hoaxes. As Spock would say, this is not logical.

But still I look & hope. When I was 8 years old, I felt comfort that knowing in my lifetime that this mystery would be solved. Or at the very least establish that flying discs from other worlds do exist. Now I'm 44 and were basically back where we were was I was 8.

It should also be pointed out that the whole stereotype that skeptics promote about people seeing some vague light and jumping to the conclusion OMG aliens! isn't something I've ever seen anyone do other than on YouTube videos where they're obviously doing that just to get the YouTube views, or in the title of some article where it's used purely as an attention getter.

I know it's really hard for people to believe based on stories of other people's experiences. I try really hard to come across as logical and fair-minded. I don't believe every case I see out there either. But like I said before. I've talked to hundreds of people and not a single one behaved that way when they were telling me their story. In every single case of a vague light off in the distance that behaved oddly, the typical response was, "I don't know what it was, but it was very strange." But skeptics would have us believe they all go OMG aliens! It's a myth propagated by the skeptical community for the purpose of mocking ufologists, and nothing more.

At some point if you ever think I'm reputable enough to take seriously here, check out my sighting. After that experience, there's no way I cannot believe. If you can explain it, I'll listen. Every skeptic I've told it to so far as ultimately accused me of lying. But how many times does one accuse people of lying before it finally dawns on them that it's just not reasonable to believe everyone is doing it? 50? 150? 1,500? 15,000? 25,000? At some point it just becomes absurd to think none of them are valid.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

It should also be pointed out that the whole stereotype that skeptics promote about people seeing some vague light and jumping to the conclusion OMG aliens! isn't something I've ever seen anyone do other than on YouTube videos where they're obviously doing that just to get the YouTube views, or in the title of some article where it's used purely as an attention getter.

I know it's really hard for people to believe based on stories of other people's experiences. I try really hard to come across as logical and fair-minded. I don't believe every case I see out there either. But like I said before. I've talked to hundreds of people and not a single one behaved that way when they were telling me their story. In every single case of a vague light off in the distance that behaved oddly, the typical response was, "I don't know what it was, but it was very strange." But skeptics would have us believe they all go OMG aliens! It's a myth propagated by the skeptical community for the purpose of mocking ufologists, and nothing more.

At some point if you ever think I'm reputable enough to take seriously here, check out my sighting. After that experience, there's no way I cannot believe. If you can explain it, I'll listen. Every skeptic I've told it to so far as ultimately accused me of lying. But how many times does one accuse people of lying before it finally dawns on them that it's just not reasonable to believe everyone is doing it? 50? 150? 1,500? 15,000? 25,000? At some point it just becomes absurd to think none of them are valid.

Exactly. It would be absurd to think everyone is lying. I mean, depending on the witness, there's a lot of stories I do believe. Just one for example the U.S. Navy case of Graham Bethume (and crew). There's only two explanations in my mind; it happened as he described (which is obviously a controlled aircraft not of this earth) or he's lying. I think this is a very good case and I don't think I've seen in mentioned in any docmentaries/TV shows in over 20 years.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

It should also be pointed out that the whole stereotype that skeptics promote about people seeing some vague light and jumping to the conclusion OMG aliens! isn't something I've ever seen anyone do other than on YouTube videos where they're obviously doing that just to get the YouTube views, or in the title of some article where it's used purely as an attention getter.

I know it's really hard for people to believe based on stories of other people's experiences. I try really hard to come across as logical and fair-minded. I don't believe every case I see out there either. But like I said before. I've talked to hundreds of people and not a single one behaved that way when they were telling me their story. In every single case of a vague light off in the distance that behaved oddly, the typical response was, "I don't know what it was, but it was very strange." But skeptics would have us believe they all go OMG aliens! It's a myth propagated by the skeptical community for the purpose of mocking ufologists, and nothing more.

At some point if you ever think I'm reputable enough to take seriously here, check out my sighting. After that experience, there's no way I cannot believe. If you can explain it, I'll listen. Every skeptic I've told it to so far as ultimately accused me of lying. But how many times does one accuse people of lying before it finally dawns on them that it's just not reasonable to believe everyone is doing it? 50? 150? 1,500? 15,000? 25,000? At some point it just becomes absurd to think none of them are valid.

I'm a skeptic, and the only thing for me that points to existence of the phenomenon is the accounts of sightings by people like you have described. Since I have never personally had an experience.
If many reasonable people are having this experience it would make me a denier to reject their veracity without digging, when I learned about Billy Meier on the Paracast, I checked it out and decided that it was crapola.
Chris O'Brien's childhood experience is far out but I don't presume him to be a liar based on the strangeness of the account.
I know I'm probably just a rare bird
If you want to post your experience id be interested to see it. You big liar

 

[Sand]

At some point if you ever think I'm reputable enough to take seriously here, check out my sighting. After that experience, there's no way I cannot believe. If you can explain it, I'll listen. Every skeptic I've told it to so far as ultimately accused me of lying. But how many times does one accuse people of lying before it finally dawns on them that it's just not reasonable to believe everyone is doing it? 50? 150? 1,500? 15,000? 25,000? At some point it just becomes absurd to think none of them are valid.

Ufology, where can we find a description of your sighting? I've looked at your web site, but not located it.

 

[Randall]

Ufology, where can we find a description of your sighting? I've looked at your web site, but not located it.

Oh sorry, I forgot not everyone knows my actual name, and it's under that. It's fairly easy to figure out, but I don't just put it out there on the forums. I've had a bunch of weird experiences, but my 1975 Glowing Orb sighting is the one I was referring to. A brief account is there under my profile: ( LINK )

For your convenience the sighting is included below:

1975 - Glowing Orb:

During June of 1975, I was with my girlfriend Karen at her parent's ranch on the west side of Lake Windermere in British Columbia Canada. Her parents were gone and I was staying overnight with her and another younger friend of hers. The three of us were sitting together on the couch in the dark looking out the picture window and listening to Led Zeppelin Two.

Just after midnight a glowing blue-white orb sprung up from behind the mountain range across the lake and bounced down the side of the mountain in three big arcs. We were all stunned and didn't know what to say. Finally Karen said, "did you see that?" we were already nodding. The sphere itself was about as wide as a Volkswagen beetle as seen from the side, and it had a plasma like glow surrounding it, but at our distance ( about 3 kilometers ), we couldn't make out any surface details.

When it landed it went dark and stayed on the ground until about 2:00AM. Then it lit up, ascended straight up to about 300 meters, stopped instantly for about two seconds, then traced a graceful infinity symbol about 300 meters wide at a 30 degree angle to the right ( south ) of its starting point. It traced the symbol precisely in the same place four times in about 7 seconds, leaving a glowing trail of light behind, not unlike the effect of waving a glow-stick in a dark room. Then it stopped instantly and settled back into the forest in exactly the same spot it had taken off from and went dark again. After that I was determined to stay awake all night so that in the morning I could get a fix on where it went down.

The second time it came up it was around 4:00AM and by then both of the girls had nodded off. The orb repeated the same maneuver as it had the first time, then settled back into the forest and went dark.

Around 6:00AM the light of dawn began to illuminate the valley well enough to make out where the orb had landed. So I went outside to get a better look, and just as I stepped out onto the landing, the orb came up again. It rose vertically to about 300 meters and stopped instantly. Only instead of repeating the infinity symbol maneuver, it turned bright white and instantly accelerated north up the valley as far as I could see. Quite literally, from where I was standing it traveled over 25 kilometers in about 1 second ... from a dead stop.

No human technology has anything that comes close to that kind of performance. Given the precise repetitive maneuvers that it had performed, there is also no way that it was a random natural phenomenon. I am convinced that it was intelligently controlled.

----

My sighting pales in comparison to the drama of some sightings, but then again I'm not out to create drama. In the years since, I've found that too much drama seems to go hand in hand with questionable claims. However it has some features that far fewer more dramatic claims often don't possess, especially all in one event:

• It was seen by more than 1 person simultaneously more than once.
• It was seen repeatedly for more than just a momentary glimpse.
• It performed precision maneuvers that made the chance of it being a random natural phenomena ( e.g. ball lightning ) virtually zero.
• It's distance and speed are discernible because it was seen in proximity to objects of known distance.
• It's speed, appearance, and behavior rule out any reasonable claims to something natural or manmade.

 

[Vimana]

Thanks Ufology for this personal account.

 

[Randall]

Exactly. It would be absurd to think everyone is lying. I mean, depending on the witness, there's a lot of stories I do believe. Just one for example the U.S. Navy case of Graham Bethume (and crew). There's only two explanations in my mind; it happened as he described (which is obviously a controlled aircraft not of this earth) or he's lying. I think this is a very good case and I don't think I've seen in mentioned in any docmentaries/TV shows in over 20 years.

Thanks for posting that. This is exactly the kind of thing I try to get across to people when I say there's no way I'm the only one in the world who's seen one of these types of things. An excellent case! I have of course run across the written account before, but never knew there was a video. Great find! I really must add that case to the USI website.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

Oh sorry, I forgot not everyone knows my actual name, and it's under that. It's fairly easy to figure out, but I don't just put it out there on the forums. I've had a bunch of weird experiences, but my 1975 Glowing Orb sighting is the one I was referring to. A brief account is there under my profile: ( LINK )

For your convenience the sighting is included below:

1975 - Glowing Orb:

During June of 1975, I was with my girlfriend Karen at her parent's ranch on the west side of Lake Windermere in British Columbia Canada. Her parents were gone and I was staying overnight with her and another younger friend of hers. The three of us were sitting together on the couch in the dark looking out the picture window and listening to Led Zeppelin Two. Just after midnight a glowing blue-white orb sprung up from behind the mountain range across the lake and bounced down the side of the mountain in three big arcs. We were all stunned and didn't know what to say. Finally Karen said, "did you see that?" we were already nodding. The sphere itself was about as wide as a Volkswagen beetle as seen from the side, and it had a plasma like glow surrounding it, but at our distance ( about 3 kilometers ), we couldn't make out any surface details.

When it landed it went dark and stayed on the ground until about 2:00AM. Then it lit up, ascended straight up to about 300 meters, stopped instantly for about two seconds, then traced a graceful infinity symbol about 300 meters wide at a 30 degree angle to the right ( south ) of its starting point. It traced the symbol precisely in the same place four times in about 7 seconds, leaving a glowing trail of light behind, not unlike the effect of waving a glow-stick in a dark room. Then it stopped instantly and settled back into the forest in exactly the same spot it had taken off from and went dark again. After that I was determined to stay awake all night so that in the morning I could get a fix on where it went down.

The second time it came up it was around 4:00AM and by then both of the girls had nodded off. The orb repeated the same maneuver as it had the first time, then settled back into the forest and went dark.

Around 6:00AM the light of dawn began to illuminate the valley well enough to make out where the orb had landed. So I went outside to get a better look, and just as I stepped out onto the landing, the orb came up again. It rose vertically to about 300 meters and stopped instantly. Only instead of repeating the infinity symbol maneuver, it turned bright white and instantly accelerated north up the valley as far as I could see. Quite literally, from where I was standing it traveled over 25 kilometers in about 1 second ... from a dead stop.

No human technology has anything that comes close to that kind of performance. Given the precise repetitive maneuvers that it had performed, there is also no way that it was a random natural phenomenon. I am convinced that it was intelligently controlled.

----

My sighting pales in comparison to the drama of some sightings, but then again I'm not out to create drama. In the years since, I've found that too much drama seems to go hand in hand with questionable claims. However it has some features that far fewer more dramatic claims often don't possess, especially all in one event:

• It was seen by more than 1 person simultaneously more than once.
• It was seen repeatedly for more than just a momentary glimpse.
• It performed precision maneuvers that made the chance of it being a random natural phenomena ( e.g. ball lightning ) virtually zero.
• It's distance and speed are discernible because it was seen in proximity to objects of known distance.
• It's speed, appearance, and behavior rule out any reasonable claims to something natural or manmade.

That's definitely freaky. That anyone would decide that you were lying is irrational. Objectively they would have no way to say.

 

[Randall]

You big liar

Hey man. I resemble ... no ... no ... strike that ... I resent that remark ! ( just razzin' ya back LOL )

 

[Randall]

That's definitely freaky. That anyone would decide that you were lying is irrational. Objectively they would have no way to say.

When skeptics are left with either having to admit that it's something alien, or that the witness is fabricating, they simply choose the latter, and in their mind, since alien visitation has never happened, they think it's perfectly logical to make that call. They don't get that ultimately, given so many accounts, it makes them deniers rather than skeptics.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

Hey man. I resemble ... no ... no ... strike that ... I resent that remark ! ( just razzin' ya back LOL )

In the comedy world we call that a switcheroo..well, I do.
Deniers are like atheists they have as much faith as true believers. I've just never had any encounters personally so I withhold judgement since I'm not omniscient

 

[Randall]

In the comedy world we call that a switcheroo..well, I do.
Deniers are like atheists they have as much faith as true believers. I've just never had any encounters personally so I withhold judgement since I'm not omniscient

Because of the reading I'd done prior to my sighting ( Ruppelt, Lorenzen, Edwards, Keyhoe ), and the experience of my older brother and his wife, I already believed they ( UFOs ) were out there, but I have to admit that believing on an intellectual level didn't diminish the impact of the firsthand experience. Foreknowledge of the phenomenon did however change the way I might have otherwise approached it. Upon seeing the UFO for the first time, I was awestruck, but it didn't take long to figure out that it was probably a UFO.

Recognizing that significance, I immediately set myself up into an all-night observation/investigation mode to try to get a better idea. Had it only appeared that one time, I might have eventually thought that it was weird, but possibly some kind of coordinated flare exercise. But not after the multiple appearances; and its instant and fantastic acceleration. That clinched it. I remember just standing there on the deck staring up the valley, thinking, "They're for real alright." I mean, it took multiple observations and incredible maneuvers before it finally left me with no doubt.

I think that is as rational an approach as Shermer or anyone else should reasonably expect. I mean what should people who have that kind of experience do? Like the psychologist in Bethune's story, should we go into denial? That comment really reveals the irony doesn't it. Instead of recognizing the reality and being able to tell his patients, "It's OK. You're not crazy. I saw one too", he suppresses it so that people won't think he's crazy ... LOL." I think there's something psychologically wrong with that!

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

Because of the reading I'd done prior to my sighting ( Ruppelt, Lorenzen, Edwards, Keyhoe ), and the experience of my older brother and his wife, I already believed they ( UFOs ) were out there, but I have to admit that believing on an intellectual level didn't diminish the impact of the firsthand experience. Foreknowledge of the phenomenon did however change the way I might have otherwise approached it. Upon seeing the UFO for the first time, I was awestruck, but it didn't take long to figure out that it was probably a UFO.

Recognizing that significance, I immediately set myself up into an all-night observation/investigation mode to try to get a better idea. Had it only appeared that one time, I might have eventually thought that it was weird, but possibly some kind of coordinated flare exercise. But not after the multiple appearances, and the instant acceleration on departure clinched it. I remember just standing there on the deck staring up the valley, thinking, "They're for real alright." I mean, it took multiple observations and incredible maneuvers before it finally left no doubt.

I'm totally agnostic about reality so I'm equally skeptical about the non-existence of UFOs as I am about their existence. The plethora of witnesses points toward an actual phenomenon. If not every account is a fabrication then there is something actually happening. Humanity is ignorant of countless things, it's irrational to believe absolutely that we know what is and isn't truly real.
That's about as far as I can go without direct experience.

 

[Randall]

I'm totally agnostic about reality so I'm equally skeptical about the non-existence of UFOs as I am about their existence. The plethora of witnesses points toward an actual phenomenon that's about as far as I can go without direct experience. Can't say.

Interesting. What do you mean, "agnostic about reality"? Do you mean reality itself? or the reality of UFOs in particular?

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

Interesting. What do you mean, "agnostic about reality"? Do you mean reality itself? or the reality of UFOs in particular?

I had to edit most of that. My brain thinking is going to hell.

Yeah, I pretty much think we can't know anything with the equipment we have. Or maybe we can..I don't know.
Anything is at best just a best guess.
Personally I only believe in love, having a good time, being kind, and searching for the Truth (even if we can't know it or what it is)
Edit: So, yeah, agnostic about general reality. Sorry to not answer. I'm waaay off topic because I just remembered this thread is supposed to be about 'rational thought', so I'm out of line.

 

[Sand]

I've had a bunch of weird experiences, but my 1975 Glowing Orb sighting is the one I was referring to. A brief account is there under my profile: ( LINK )

Thanks for posting. That is quite an array of experiences on your web page. They're all very interesting. I might have to reevaluate my dismissive view of MIB.

 

[Randall]

I had to edit most of that. My brain thinking is going to hell.

Yeah, I pretty much think we can't know anything with the equipment we have. Or maybe we can..I don't know.
Anything is at best just a best guess.
Personally I only believe in love, having a good time, being kind, and searching for the Truth (even if we can't know it or what it is)
Edit: So, yeah, agnostic about general reality. Sorry to not answer. I'm waaay off topic because I just remembered this thread is supposed to be about 'rational thought', so I'm out of line.

No. Not to worry. You make perfect sense to me. I only asked because the nature of reality is one of those things I've spent a lot of time reflecting on, so I always like to hear what other people think .