Some thoughts on the “Hyper-Real” of David & Jeff’s experiences…

[Master Of Diagrams]

Several times in podcast discussions both David and Jeff have tried to verbalize their personal UFO experiences. More than once both have used terms such as “Hyper-Real” or “Ultra-real” to describe their perspective during their encounters. I have my own personal thoughts on such ideas.

When I here such terms as these being used I am suspicious of anything that seems more real or too real in nature. For example, if you have ever had a grape, watermelon, or banana flavored piece of candy you would know that they usually taste much stronger than their respective natural fruits. Hollywood and television are other examples of a reality that has to be exaggerated in order to better sell you on the story. Special effects are often used to enhance films and shows where-bye a realistic depiction of a chase scene, explosion, etc… may not be as convincing as the over-the-top reality-substitute that we are accustom to accepting.

When I here someone describe their perception of an paranormal event as being extra-real, or more real than baseline reality it sends rag flags up and in my opinion suggests that the perception may in fact be a false one being forced on the eyewitness… maybe to make them believe what they are perceiving is reality… and not question the nature of the experience further?

I am posting this in Conspiracy theories as I think that this idea lends itself to that realm. I am wondering if any of you have any thoughts on this?

 

[Koji K.]

I can only add that I am equally interested in that aspect some people have mentioned which Jeff puts very well as "they're very hard to be around." I don't know how closely this is related to the feeling of hyperreality.

Some people report feeling nauseous or dizzy or "out of whack", some report feeling a deep sense of unease (aside from the fear they can rationally atrribute to the experience itself), and others a sort of deep feeling of "significance." I wonder if these are all different ways of describing the same thing, or at least attributable to the same facet of the exprience.

It reminds me sort of of attempted descriptions as to how hard it would be for a 3d being to encounter a "4d being." What happens to the "locus" of their emergence? Or to the mind of the perceiver? I think this is a slightly different way of looking at it than the point of view that this feeling is something attributable to deliberate deception- although there seems a lot to suggest that there *is* deception in many cases (for example, why do these beings in certain cases use "medical" tools that look like they come from Sweeney Todd, if they're advanced enough to defy physics as we understand it? Why do they tell us "truths" that are pretty obvious, like the need to look after our planet? Why do the "beings" sometimes act like they were "caught in the act" of searching for something or fixing their UFO or generally loitering and not doing anything productive when encountered by someone?)

It's reminiscient of dream-imagery, it makes me wonder if they're communicating on a level of symbols and feeling far different from what we could call normal communication, where the "form" of the message may be more important than the "content," and the line between what is being reflected off of our own mental constructs and what is actual, "original" or "directed" content/communication from these things is not clear.

I guess I'm going beyond the bounds of the original post, so I'll stop here....

 

[BrandonD]

Some people report feeling nauseous or dizzy or "out of whack", some report feeling a deep sense of unease (aside from the fear they can rationally atrribute to the experience itself), and others a sort of deep feeling of "significance." I wonder if these are all different ways of describing the same thing, or at least attributable to the same facet of the experience.

It's reminiscient of dream-imagery, it makes me wonder if they're communicating on a level of symbols and feeling far different from what we could call normal communication, where the "form" of the message may be more important than the "content," and the line between what is being reflected off of our own mental constructs and what is actual, "original" or "directed" content/communication from these things is not clear.

I have alot of ideas on this subject, and much of it is related to my psychedelic experiences, to which I find more than a few points of similarity.

I don't claim to know anything about anything, so take this stuff as entertainment if it sounds nonsensical to you.

Firstly, there is a certain phenomenon that happens in the psychedelic experience which for me is one of the main reasons for both its appeal and fearfulness.

Through the psychedelic experience I'm able to recognize that I somehow have two minds: one of them is dominant and the other is passive. But the passive mind is the mind that I feel is more "me", while the dominant mind does not seem to belong to me, it feels imposed.

Here is how I get this impression: When under the influence of psychedelics, this dominant mind (which would be the everyday mind I'm familiar with) is somehow disoriented. It is chemically discombobulated, and this disorientation allows the passive second mind to move forward to the front. Things that I've forgotten for a long time are suddenly remembered, my priorities of importance suddenly become clearer. I realize what I'm supposed to be doing right here and now.

Both minds seem to be a flipside of the other. The things that are clear in one mind are hazy in the other, and vice-versa. It is not like everyone says, you're just all fucked up while tripping. Certain things are way-messed-up, and certain things become so clear that you're in shock of how you've allowed yourself to forget them.

Some of the things realized while within the other mind are remembered, while others are forgotten.

While under the influence, my point of attention can still vacillate between one mind and the other. When in the mental position that I'm most familiar with, the whole experience is very uncomfortable. I feel sick and disoriented. But moving into the other mind takes me out of that disorientation. But since I'm most familiar with the dominant mind, I slip back into it very often during the trip.

Since that second mind appears to me to be the "real me", perhaps this ties in to Jeremy's idea that these beings cannot contact us on our own terms (ie, through the "false self").

If other beings must contact a primitive race via our "real self", perhaps in order to do so they must place us in a sort of psychedelic state that disorients the dominant mind.

If we are only associated with the dominant mind, perhaps we would remember almost nothing of our experience.

Maybe many people only begin recalling this stuff later in life because over the years, as a person learns to bring the second mind to the front, the memories of the experiences in the past begin to take shape.

Something like that.

If anyone has any thoughts on this I'd be very interested to hear them. Thanks for indulging.

 

[valiens]

Brandon, what psychedelics have you done? I met an artist last week who does a lot of DMT. He says that he believes it does open the user up to a broader reality, as opposed to mere hallucinations. But, he says that he knows when he's on it that he's on it. There's no sense of getting completely absorbed in the situation. He can always say to himself, "I'm tripping on DMT" while in the experience.

I've not felt that separation between me and the moment during abductions, but it's clearly there during visions. I know I'm watching (or participating in, would be more accurate) a vision, as opposed to abductions, which feel like they're happening just like anything else in life. Maybe if I could divorce myself from it in the same way something new would happen, I dunno.

But my questions are: which psychedelics do you use and are you aware you're tripping when in the middle of a trip?

 

[BrandonD]

Brandon, what psychedelics have you done? I met an artist last week who does a lot of DMT. He says that he believes it does open the user up to a broader reality, as opposed to mere hallucinations. But, he says that he knows when he's on it that he's on it. There's no sense of getting completely absorbed in the situation. He can always say to himself, "I'm tripping on DMT" while in the experience.

I've not felt that separation between me and the moment during abductions, but it's clearly there during visions. I know I'm watching (or participating in, would be more accurate) a vision, as opposed to abductions, which feel like they're happening just like anything else in life. Maybe if I could divorce myself from it in the same way something new would happen, I dunno.

But my questions are: which psychedelics do you use and are you aware you're tripping when in the middle of a trip?

My first psychedelic experience was with DMT, I participated in an ayahuasca ceremony in Peru (DMT is the active chemical in ayahuasca).

There were definitely parts of my own DMT trip where it was so intense that I had no idea I was under the influence of anything. But I'd say that during the majority of the experience I had the awareness of tripping, at least in the back of my consciousness.

I drank ayahuasca for 5 ceremonies, and each experience was different in terms of degree and intensity. In fact, during the entire second ceremony I just sat there in ordinary consciousness for 6 hours! And yet in the very next ceremony, I had the most horrific experience of my life where I basically had my mind disassembled and re-assembled in order to release a parasitic entity that was living in some sort of symbiotic relationship w/ me.

(By the way, I don't accept any of my experiences as factual. I have no way of discerning whether they have an existence outside of myself or not, so I just leave it at that)

During the peak of that third ceremony I definitely disconnected from the 'real world'.

I honestly think there is something to the psychedelic state other than just random "hallucinations", so since then I've become much more interested in the subject. Since my Peru trip I've tried LSD and salvia (a legal psychedelic). LSD is not quite as intense as DMT in my experience, during the entire experience one is aware that he is under the influence.

Salvia is a very intense psychedelic which acts upon you almost immediately after exhaling. For the first few moments, I forgot that I was tripping and even where I was. But then it returned to me after a minute or so. But its effects are very brief and wear off quickly.

I've just gone over a few in that last post, but there are actually many more areas where the psychedelic state parallels the 'hyper-real' state that is described by you and Jeff. I would be happy to help shed some light on this state for both of us, so if you have any other questions let me know.

 

[Ally]

"Hyper-Real" is about the best word that can be used to discribe these experiences. I don't know if I can elaborate on the "Hyper-Real" aspect but I might be have a few words about the dual consciousness aspect.

There are two different types of dual conciousness aspects that I have experienced during an" abduction" or "visitation".

The first one feels like I am aware of myself in two situations simultaneously i.e.feeling by bed below me and being levitated also. This feeling and for that matter the experience could be best discribed as an out-of body experience, while other beings are around me.
Most of the time this type of awareness is not unpleasant. I am not sure if this is an OBE or a "alien visiation".

The other dual consciousness feels much different and sinister. I feel like I am interfacing with another being. This does not feel like another aspect of myself. I feel like I am looking through it's eyes and sences. I usually fight this one as hard as I can and force myself awake. There are a few times that I only thought I was awake only to wake up later and realize that I have been tricked.

I would be glad to answer any other questions about these events.

 

[BrandonD]

The other dual consciousness feels much different and sinister. I feel like I am interfacing with another being. This does not feel like another aspect of myself. I feel like I am looking through it's eyes and sences. I usually fight this one as hard as I can and force myself awake. There are a few times that I only thought I was awake only to wake up later and realize that I have been tricked.

I had this exact feeling during the ayahuasca ceremony. I recognized that a being was living 'within me', for lack of a better term, and our feelings and senses were connected. The terror I was feeling was in fact its terror because it was aware that I (or the shaman) was trying to drive it out. It was a black thing and it lived in some sort of parasitic relationship w/ me. I could actually feel it moving inside of me.

 

[valiens]

Do the shamans say what the repercussions are of living in a symbiotic or parasitic relationship like that? Does it matter in the long run?

 

[BrandonD]

Do the shamans say what the repercussions are of living in a symbiotic or parasitic relationship like that? Does it matter in the long run?

I actually never asked him about my specific experience, but according to my understanding one of the ideas in shamanism is that our psychological disorders are often caused by external entities. One of the effects of taking ayahuasca is that you throw up. This throwing up represents the expelling of these entities.

I don't believe one way or the other on that subject, but I should note that I only threw up once during the course of all 5 ceremonies, and that one time was after I sensed that 'thing' inside me. The other people participating were throwing up much more often.

Ok now I'm gonna go off on a speculative limb, so take it with a barrel of salt.

I feel that maybe the thing I sensed and the dominant mind are somehow related. Perhaps the dominant mind is somehow associated with a foreign intelligence that has taken over or occluded my consciousness (and maybe the consciousness of all people). It is foreign but because it is in some sort of symbiotic relationship, over the course of my life I've continually associated it with 'me' so it becomes more and more difficult to remove its influence. To weaken it or destroy it feels like weakening or destroying me.

I think part of the shaman ceremony is temporarily tearing a person free from the influence of this foreign control. But it feels like death because my true mind is tied to this other foreign mind.

I think that when I've sensed that I was free from this foreign mind temporarily, my purpose and motivations become clearer. I actually felt joy, which I've never felt in my whole life. I would say that the entire course of my life has been generally flat where the term "joy" is concerned, but I felt joy in the ceremony. Particularly the final one.

It was a feeling so strange to me that I can't even really recall how it felt, I can only remember that it happened.

 

[valiens]

Wow, thanks for sharing that, Brandon.

I'm not sure what Jeff & Dave mean by "hyper-real," actually. During the abduction experience where I woke up because light was coming in through the window and then I turn over and there are beings standing over me--that felt normal real. Thinking about it afterwards, though, I managed to tuck it away as a dream because "it couldn't have been real." That worked for about a year. Then I had another experience with that same quality of light and I knew I couldn't ignore the first incident anymore.

But like I said, it felt normal real when it happened.

Hyper-real to me is the time I saw snakes. I was sleeping on the couch, my mom was in my bed, and my roommate, Bob, was in his bed, which at the time didn't have a door. It's right off the living room.

I wake up lying on my stomach, facing the floor. There are two cobras coiled up just sitting there. They were hyper-real--they were brighter than anything in the room, like almost cartoonishly so. Like a lucid dream that somehow crossed over into reality. I stared at them, realizing they can't really be there because there are no snakes in Queens.

I looked up and saw Bob snoring away in his room, looked back down and those snakes were still there. I'm thinking, 'This is impossible. You're hallucinating.'

I roll over onto my back and writhing up my chest is a giant albino boa or python--one of the two. I scream and leap across the room. Bob comes crashing out of his room asking me what's wrong and embarrassed I point to nothing and say "snakes."

I sort of laugh it off, he goes back to bed, I go to the bathroom. On my way, I notice my door is wide open, which is weird because my mom's in there. I've got three roommates. Can't really see her wanting the door open, ya know? So naturally, me being me, it dawns on me that more might be going on than snake hallucinations...but I dunno.

Cut to the next day. Maybe unrelated to this but odd nonetheless: I've got friends over and we're playing board games. I tell them I think I had another abduction-related experience last night. As I'm explaining the snakes, and having tried my best to convince mommy dearest that New York is safe in spite of the 9/11 attacks, BOOM! A friggen car bomb goes off right across the street from our house. Firemen said it was probably car jacked from a lot, taken for a joyride, and detonated to get rid of evidence.

Related? Unrelated? I don't know. But interesting, eh?

That's the loooong way of saying I associate the term "hyper-real" with the more-real-than-real lucid snakes on my floor (and chest) but don't know if this is what Jeff & Dave mean by it.

The feeling of being in close proximity, on the other hand...I know what they mean.

 

[mike]

The feeling of being in close proximity, on the other hand...I know what they mean.

in my experience which i still maintain could have been sleep paralysis, i had that same feeling, a "knowing" there was someone in the house.
and i "froze" in bed with my senses on full gain so to speak

like an animal "going to ground"

there was a hyper real aspect in that all the circumstances point to this being a dream, ie its the small hours of the morning and im in bed and have been for hours, what takes place in the few minutes between being "awake" and being unconcious again does indeed seem hyper real compared to what i would normally associate with a dream sequence. ive never dreamed i was in my bedroom, yet in this sequence which by logical circumstances must be a dream , i can see the details of the room as if i were awake and it was "real"

 

[Poi]

Being hyper aware is something people who meditate understand very well. I think those who don't meditate would find it new and disturbing because it happens much less frequently. I also think being hyper aware in a dream is the same as it is in an awake state. It's a real phenomenon.

 

[Graphimancer]

I completely concur on the hyperreality/meditation point.