Stanton T. Friedman

[rudeboi]

I know Stanton T. Friedman is the "Godfather of Ufology" the "Hardest working man in Ufology". Please give it a rest. I have'nt heard not one new piece of info from this windbag since I started listening to him.I know some of you praise him like the second coming, but I say"move over or better yet sit down".

 

[Rick Deckard]

Okay, I'll take the bait. ;D

I'm curious to know what Stanton T. Friedman has said or done that you find so objectional?

 

[meciar]

I'll answer to your comment Rick. I don't think his viewpoint about SETI is correct. While I don't think the SETI program will likely find an Alien civilization this way, their explanations http://www.seti.org/site/pp.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=178905#anchor322190 are quite reasonable for what they are doing. There is a chance that an Alien civilization has a SETI program too isn't there? We humans have one

 

[Rick Deckard]

Well, funny you should mention SETI, 'cos someone just told me today that the SETI 'home' project has just clocked up 1 MILLION YEARS of CPU time!

What a waste! My response was "and yet they've still not found anything - isn't it time to try something else now?"

There is a chance that an Alien civilization has a SETI program too isn't there?

Sure there is. There's also a chance that some ET civilizations ran SETI type projects before they discovered interstellar travel and have gotten here thousands of years ahead of their own radio signals which will eventually reach us via the 'linear' route...the possibilities are endless and I find the 'narrow' search parameters of the SETI project to be ludicrous.

Therefore, I have to agree with Stanton - SETI is a (very bad) joke.

Answer me this - does the SETI project actively investigate UFO cases?

 

[pixelsmith]

Rick, how do you know they havent found anything? I heard that they have found several things.

 

[Rick Deckard]

Rick, how do you know they havent found anything? I heard that they have found several things.

<sarcasm>
Woo-hoo! So they've found evidence of ET! That's great! We can stop looking now, can't we?
</sarcasm>

I've heard this too, but if they really did find evidence, then why haven't they posted the news on their home web pages?

Will the discovery of a radio signal really prove anything anyway?

Again, I ask, why don't they look at UFO cases as possible evidence of ET intelligence? If they believe in the possibility that ET civlizations exist then why not accept the possibility that ET craft are already here? Why assume that ET civilisations are no more advanced than we are? Why assume that ET has not yet figured out non-linear interstellar travel? Why assume that ET civilizations have developed radio and are transmitting within frequency ranges defined by us?

Is it because the real purpose of the project is NEVER to find evidence and therefore re-enforce the idea that the ET/UFO reality is 'nonsense'?

I applaud all genuine attempts to find 'the answers' but the SETI project points it's telescope at the ground and declares 'I see no evidence of ETs!'. It's just ridiculous.

 

[Rick Deckard]

Okay, I decided to go to the SETI web site and find out why they are not looking at UFOs.

Here's a couple of UFO related question from their FAQ (link):

[/url]
Is someone hiding aliens?

We don't think so. Many Americans (and quite a few citizens of other countries) are convinced that extraterrestrials may be buzzing the countryside in their spacecraft, or occasionally alighting in the back yard to abduct a few humans for breeding experiments.

This would be of enormous interest and importance of course, and (in our opinion) impossible to hide, particularly if it's happening internationally. The presence of aliens on our planet is not something you would want to hide: it would be the biggest science story of all time, and tens of thousands of university researchers would be working away on it. However, despite the popularity of aliens on both silver and phosphor screens and a half-century of UFO sightings, the lack of credible physical evidence has made it difficult for serious scientists to believe that UFOs have anything to do with extraterrestrial visitors.

[/url]
Do you have any pictures of UFO's or aliens?

No. At this time, there is no compelling scientific evidence to support the idea that extraterrestrials are here or on their way. The reasons for this are detailed in our document entitled "Why the SETI Institute does no UFO Research". However, you may wish to reflect on the fact that if there were interesting, verifiable evidence that extraterrestrials were visiting our planet, tens of thousands of university scientists would be busy investigating this idea. They're not.

Does that reasoning seem credible to anyone?

BTW, I have tried to the find the document entitled "Why the SETI Institute does no UFO Research" on the site - it isn't there. If someone has a link to the document, I'd be interested to read it.

 

[meciar]

My thought on why SETI does no UFO research is that they are in the typical mainstream science community of thought.... which is to say, they haven't seen any credible information about UFO's. To mainstream scientists*, SETI represents the most logical scientific way that we have to begin our search for alien civilizations. I think that 99% of the people working at SETI would be overjoyed to hear of a legitimate, perfectly proveable demonstration of the existance of extraterrestrials. The fact is, we don't have that, which makes the UFO field so "paranormal" at the moment.

*those scientists who do not think there is a possibility of extraterrestrials in ufo's around our planet

 

[Rick Deckard]

My thought on why SETI does no UFO research is that they are in the typical mainstream science community of thought.... which is to say, they haven't seen any credible information about UFO's.

What you mean is that you think they are very bad scientists - and I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one - ignoring a huge amount of documented 'evidence' is very bad science indeed. But, like I've said elsewhere, scientists are very good at 'towing the line' when their careers depend on it.

It really is sad to realise that the 'official' investigation into probably the most important question in human history is being managed by some of the most narrowed-minded individuals on the planet.

There's no excuse for burying your head in the sand - unless you've got an ulterior motive for doing so...

...remember what Stanton was saying about the 'professor' who spent his public career debunking UFOs while secretly working to 'keep the lid on it'?

 

[pixelsmith]

I've heard this too, but if they really did find evidence, then why haven't they posted the news on their home web pages?

all things are rarely as they seem. sometimes the best lock is one that is unlocked.

 

[fitzbew88]

Well, funny you should mention SETI, 'cos someone just told me today that the SETI 'home' project has just clocked up 1 MILLION YEARS of CPU time!

What a waste! My response was "and yet they've still not found anything - isn't it time to try something else now?"

I wonder...at what point should we give up on SETI? Even if they had covered 100% of the sky, they are only looking at certain frequencies. I believe the logical thing to do would be to start over with some other frequency. I bet they would have trouble with funding, though!

Will the discovery of a radio signal really prove anything anyway?

If it's undeniably intelligent (i.e., prime numbers or graphics or something), undeniably sidereal, and anybody with a receiver can hear the signal, then yes.

why don't they [SETI] look at UFO cases as possible evidence of ET intelligence?

I think that even with our best evidence, at the end of the day, we can only hope to prove some unknown machine flew through the sky. We can't say 100% that "it" was extraterrestrial -- we can only guess as to origin.

I believe that one day we may find the answer to this puzzle, and find ourselves left with with more questions than we started!

 

[Rick Deckard]

all things are rarely as they seem. sometimes the best lock is one that is unlocked.

That's a bit too cryptic for me - could you spell it out to me? Thanks.

I think that even with our best evidence, at the end of the day, we can only hope to prove some unknown machine flew through the sky. We can't say 100% that "it" was extraterrestrial -- we can only guess as to origin.

I believe that one day we may find the answer to this puzzle, and find ourselves left with with more questions than we started!

So, just to clarify your position:

• You're prepared to accept the possibility that ET civilizations exist but rule out the possibility that they have already visited the Earth
• You think that The Disclosure Project witness testimony about UFOs buzzing launch sites and disabling the ICBMs is bogus
• You think that The Disclosure Project witness testimony about alien craft retrieval is bogus
• You think that The Disclosure Project witness testimony about NASA airbrushing out UFOs from photos before releasing them to the public is bogus
• You think that all the documented cases involving the military downing ET craft and capturing EBEs are bogus
• You think that all documented cases involving downed craft and ETs, including the Roswell story, are bogus
• You think that all the UFO-related documents released under the FOIA that are 95% whited/blacked are merely hiding relatively mundane military secrets
• You think that all the MJ12 documents are bogus
• You think that all witnesses to close encounters of the third kind and above are making it up or mistaken

Better pin your hopes on the success of the SETI project then...

 

[Rick Deckard]

If it's undeniably intelligent (i.e., prime numbers or graphics or something), undeniably sidereal, and anybody with a receiver can hear the signal, then yes.

What does that mean?

What makes you so confident that we could recognize ET intelligence?

Why assume they would send out prime numbers or graphics?

What if all the 'white noise' radio signals that the Earth is bombarded with 24/7 are actually signals from ET civilizations and we're just too dumb to realize it?

 

[fitzbew88]

So, just to clarify your position:

[*]You're prepared to accept the possibility that ET civilizations exist but rule out the possibility that they have already visited the Earth
[*]You think that The Disclosure Project witness testimony about UFOs buzzing launch sites and disabling the ICBMs is bogus
[*]You think that The Disclosure Project witness testimony about alien craft retrieval is bogus
[*]You think that The Disclosure Project witness testimony about NASA airbrushing out UFOs from photos before releasing them to the public is bogus
[*]You think that all the documented cases involving the military downing ET craft and capturing EBEs are bogus
[*]You think that all documented cases involving downed craft and ETs, including the Roswell story, are bogus
[*]You think that all the UFO-related documents released under the FOIA that are 95% whited/blacked are merely hiding relatively mundane military secrets
[*]You think that all the MJ12 documents are bogus
[*]You think that all witnesses to close encounters of the third kind and above are making it up or mistaken

Better pin your hopes on the success of the SETI project then...

;D What an awesome listing!

My position is: I think UFOs are real and that they are an unexplained (sometimes) intelligently-driven phenomena. But I can only guess as to nature and origin. ET would surely be one of my guesses, possibly my favorite.

I can't say that I truly think all the items you listed are "bogus", it's just that nothing I've read about a lot of those items has fully convinced me that ET is here. None of it yet smells like a "smoking gun" to me. Our community has been lied to so many times, can you blame me for being cautious?

Of course, I'm not "ruling out" that They are here...I just don't feel like we have proved it yet.

 

[fitzbew88]

What does that mean?

What makes you so confident that we could recognize ET intelligence?

Why assume they would send out prime numbers or graphics?

What if all the 'white noise' radio signals that the Earth is bombarded with 24/7 are actually signals from ET civilizations and we're just too dumb to realize it?

Ah. If we don't recognize it as intelligent, then it's no good as far as unequivocally answering the Great Question.

A signal will be useful *only if* we recognize it as intelligently-driven and everyone is able to listen to it.

I'm kinda skeptical about our prospects of finding a good signal, but I think SETI is worth a try.

Wouldn't it be funny (pardon my levity) if we found a signal and translated it into a graphic of a saucer? The SETI guys would be tripping over themselves trying to get their feet out of their mouths! ;D

 

[Rick Deckard]

;D What an awesome listing!

Thanks - I have to admit that the real purpose of that little 'rant' was to point out what you have to ignore in order to wholeheartedly support the SETI project in it's current guise.

My position is: I think UFOs are real and that they are an unexplained (sometimes) intelligently-driven phenomena. But I can only guess as to nature and origin. ET would surely be one of my guesses, possibly my favorite.

I can't say that I truly think all the items you listed are "bogus", it's just that nothing I've read about a lot of those items has fully convinced me that ET is here. None of it yet smells like a "smoking gun" to me. Our community has been lied to so many times, can you blame me for being cautious?

Of course, I'm not "ruling out" that They are here...I just don't feel like we have proved it yet.

I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised by your balanced responses - you and I are not that far apart in our perceptions of the 'UFO reality'.

A question that I regularly ask myself is "what amount of evidence constitutes proof?" - where is the 'tipping point'? Remember, out of all the UFO contact cases reported, only one has to be true to prove the case for the 'UFO reality'.

Once again, I applaud the idea of looking for evidence of ETI - I just think that the SETI project is set up not to find it...

 

[meciar]

I do agree with you Rick. Although I believe SETI is legitimate, from my reading about SETI, and your posts, I've been convinced that SETI isn't all that practical. It all comes down to probability and the drake equation (I think that's the ET equation?) for SETI. If we are lucky we might catch a signal from ET's. But yeah, the likelyhood of that is probably very small.

But then to refute my own conclusions, maybe the probability is really high and we just don't know it. I would agree however that the probability of finding ET's via the SETI method is unlikely at best.

In conclusion, I still stand by my initial point that Stanton Friedman is false in his accusation that SETI is illigitimate.

I hope all that makes sense... it is rather late and I need some sleep.

 

[Rick Deckard]

It all comes down to probability and the drake equation (I think that's the ET equation?) for SETI.

The "Drake Equation" is a joke - take a dozen "best guesses", throw in some "unknowns" then multiply by some "assumptions" - pathetic, but hey, that's just my opinion!

 

[meciar]

The "Drake Equation" is a joke - take a dozen "best guesses", throw in some "unknowns" then multiply by some "assumptions" - pathetic, but hey, that's just my opinion!

I agree. That is why I no longer think SETI will work. Let's look at all the ufo evidence, maybe .01% of it is legitimate and then we have something to go on! .01% of all ufo cases being real would be a much better probability than the SETI program has.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I agree. That is why I no longer think SETI will work. Let's look at all the ufo evidence, maybe .01% of it is legitimate and then we have something to go on! .01% of all ufo cases being real would be a much better probability than the SETI program has.

Perhaps Gene and David can get someone from the SETI project on the paracast and ask them why they aren't looking at UFO cases, why they aren't talking to the Disclosure Project, why they aren't requesting classified UFO documents and why they think their way has the best chance of find ETI.

In the recent past I've become less interested in the specific UFO cases and more interested in the motives of groups and individuals who appear to be denying even the possibility that UFOs could be ET craft.