T. Allen Greenfield

[Konrad Hartmann]

What did you folks think about the Greenfield show? I enjoyed it and will probably listen to it a second time. I would have liked to hear more about his magical experimentation with abduction events. Does anyone have more detail about what he was talking about?

I thought his discussion of egregore (plural?) interesting, though I'm not sure I fully understand it. If a society could be said to develop a consciousness and intent independent of the individual humans composing it, could this be called an egregore?

 

[allengreenfield]

What did you folks think about the Greenfield show? I enjoyed it and will probably listen to it a second time. I would have liked to hear more about his magical experimentation with abduction events. Does anyone have more detail about what he was talking about?

I thought his discussion of egregore (plural?) interesting, though I'm not sure I fully understand it. If a society could be said to develop a consciousness and intent independent of the individual humans composing it, could this be called an egregore?

Wikipedia on "Egregore" -
egregore

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Egregore (also egregor) is an occult concept representing a "thoughtform" or "collective group mind", an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent, non-occult concepts of the corporation (as a legal entity) and the meme.

History

The first author to adapt "egregore" in a modern language seems to be the French poet Victor Hugo, in La Légende des Siècles ("The Legend of the Ages"), First Series, 1859, where he uses the word "égrégore" first as an adjective, then as a noun, while leaving the meaning obscure.[1] The author seems to have intended simply to provide a word rhyming with both with "or" (gold) and "mandragore". It is not the only example of word creation by Victor Hugo.
Eliphas Lévi, in Le Grand Arcane ("The Great Mystery", 1868) identifies "egregors" with the tradition concerning the fathers of the nephilim, describing them as "terrible beings" that "crush us without pity because they are unaware of our existence."[2]
The concept of the egregore as a group thoughtform was developed in works of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and the Rosicrucians[3] and has been referenced by writers such as Valentin Tomberg.
A well known concept of the egregore is the GOTOS of the Fraternitas Saturni.[4]
Contemporary usage

Gaetan Delaforge, in Gnosis magazine in 1987, defines an egregore as a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose."[5]
The concept has enjoyed renewed popularity among practitioners of chaos magic,[citation needed] following the Corporate Metabolism series of articles by Paco Xander Nathan, which were published in 2001.
The result of a synergy of thought could be the most concise description of this state of mind.
The notion of "egregor" also appears in Daniil Andreyev's Roza Mira, where it represents the shining cloud-like spirit associated with the Church. It is a common belief in Russia that the word "egregor" originated from this spiritual book.[citation needed]
The Russian occult movement DEIR, led by Dmitry Verischchagin, also employs this concept.
Egregore is also used in relation to the Montreal Surrealists, best known as Les Automatistes, in Ray Ellenwood's Egregore : a history of the Montréal automatist movement[6]
Notes

1. ^ Victor Hugo, "Le jour des rois", IV, 5, La Légende des Siècles, Première Série, 1859.
2. ^ Lévi, Eliphas, "The Great Mystery" (1868) p.127-130, 133, 136
3. ^ Fama Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis.(1614) Manifesto: Positio. Epilogue page 25
4. ^ Flowers (1995), p. 36-38
5. ^ Delaforge, Gaeten, "The Templar Tradition: Yesterday and Today", Gnosis Magazine, #6, 1987.
6. ^ Ellenwood, Ray, Egregore : a history of the Montréal automatist movement. Toronto: Exile Editions, 1992. ISBN 9781550960211

References

• Bernstein, L.S. (1998). "Egregor". The Rosicrucian Archive. Confraternity of the Rose Cross. Retrieved November 22, 2011.
• Butler, Walter Ernest (1970). "The Egregore of a School". Servantsofthelight.org. The Servants of the Light. Retrieved November 22, 2011.
• Flowers, S. Edred (1995). Fire & Ice: Magical Teachings of Germany's Greatest Secret Occult Order. Llewellyn's Teutonic Magick Series (2nd ed.). Llewellyn Publications. ISBN 0-87542-776-6.
• Nathan, Paco Xander (2001). "Chasing Egregors". The Scarlet Letter (Scarlet Woman Lodge, Ordo Templi Orientis) VI (1).

On abduction, in addition to Vallee's Passport to Magonia, see my books on UFOs and the occult:
Secret Cipher of the Ufonauts: Allen H. Greenfield: 9781881532040: Amazon.com: Books
and
Secret Rituals of the Men In Black: Allen Greenfield: 9781411667648: Amazon.com: Books

Both are also available from Scribd in free PDF editions.

 

[Randall]

I like the perspective we get from the years of experience of these guests that we don't get from books and videos alone. It was relaxed and interesting. Good show .

A comment on the Dark Power of Hitler to influence large numbers of people with the power of his voice. This had less to do with magic and everything to do with the pioneering use of PA ( public address ) systems, radio, film, and TV, all of which were coming together for the first time in history to give individuals the ability to be heard and seen at distances never before possible, and consequently influence large numbers of people quickly. Hitler's appearances before large crowds were more like appearances of a rock star than a politician, and that format has gone on to be used by politicians the world over. Apparently Hitler even planned a National cable broadcast system dedicated to this cause:

"Adolf Hitler was on the verge of creating an Orwellian-style cable TV system tobroadcast Nazi propaganda around Germany." ( Article )​

​

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

I like the perspective we get from the years of experience of these guests that we don't get from books and videos alone. It was relaxed and interesting. Good show .

A comment on the Dark Power of Hitler to influence large numbers of people with the power of his voice. This had less to do with magic and everything to do with the pioneering use of PA ( public address ) systems, radio, film, and TV, all of which were coming together for the first time in history to give individuals the ability to be heard and seen at distances never before possible, and consequently influence large numbers of people quickly. Hitler's appearances before large crowds were more like appearances of a rock star than a politician, and that format has gone on to be used by politicians the world over. Apparently Hitler even planned a National cable broadcast system dedicated to this cause:

"Adolf Hitler was on the verge of creating an Orwellian-style cable TV system tobroadcast Nazi propaganda around Germany." ( Article )​

​

I'm no expert on history or magic, but here's my impression of things.

The Nazis undoubtedly exploited the new media forms to an extent unmatched by contemporary regimes. Every medium was used, and maybe it isn't too great an exaggeration to call this era the ugly birth of modern mass media.

But I don't think this is the only aspect worth examining, and one explanation doesn't necessarily negate the other. Stephen Flowers, cited in the references above, in other works wrote about the 3rd Reich's public ritual and its effect on the participants. Most of the public ceremonies more or less followed a particular pattern, with the intent of provoking a strong emotional response in the people so that this event would guide their future actions and attitudes. This isn't to say that the party propaganda machine envisioned the effort as an occult process, but there seems to be a magical element to it. Flowers referred to it as Lesser Black Magic, a category which includes the manipulation of events or people using non-supernatural means.

In other words, the party had an intent, which was to persuade and inspire the people to follow party dogma. The party used extensive ritual in the form of parades, torchlight ceremonies, liturgy, songs, speeches, banners, and so on in order to evoke the desired emotion. And was the outcome successful? Yes, it was in fact too successful. Germans were persuaded to commit and/or tolerate atrocities, and were eventually compelled towards self-destruction. Normal checks and balances against horrible and stupid ideas failed completely. I'm oversimplifying because a countless number of factors played into events, but the public ritual seems to be a big influence on things.

While we may not know what, if any, ritual chamber workings occurred within the regime, we do know that public ritual was used to focus emotion, enact the will of the party, and change events. This may or may not fit the conventional definition of magic, but we do see in this case events where ritual was used to drive an ideology or goal deep into the minds of the participants. An intent enhanced by emotional ritual tends to stay with the participant, and maintains the idea in times of stress, fatigue, or doubt.

But I get the impression that Allen Greenfield was talking about something else in regard to the egregor. There seemed to be an entity which, once created, impelled the nation towards its doom.

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

Would it be accurate to describe the egregor then as the collective unconscious of the group to which it is attached? It seems to be something created by the group, but the creation goes on to have its own existence in a symbiotic relationship with the group. This would also suggest that a power struggle may ensue between the creation and the creator, as well as confusion as to who created who.

 

[Randall]

... The party used extensive ritual in the form of parades, torchlight ceremonies, liturgy, songs, speeches, banners, and so on in order to evoke the desired emotion ...

So did Alice Cooper, but his special effects guy was none other than Magician James Randi.​

So again, I submit that this "magic" was nothing supernatural. Rather it was an induced​

psychological reaction evoked by propaganda delivered to the masses​

by new and amazing technology.​

​

---------------------------------------------------​

Theater or Propaganda ?​

​

​

Theater or Propaganda ?​

​

A memorable banner cleverly inserted into the record sleeves of 1970s youth rock music to​

assist in the corruption of young minds and promote rebellion against the institutions.​

​

​

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

So did Alice Cooper, but his special effects guy was none other than Magician James Randi.​

So again, I submit that this "magic" was nothing supernatural. Rather it was an induced​

psychological reaction evoked by propaganda delivered to the masses​

by new and amazing technology.​

​

---------------------------------------------------​

Point taken. People have sometimes used the term Lesser Black Magic to include non-supernatural, manipulative uses of psychology, stage magic, and so forth. But a lot of what is called magic, as practiced, does hinge upon induced psychological reactions. I'm guessing that many practitioners recognize that a significant portion of their activities revolve around creating psychological change in themselves or others, with or without reference to supernatural activity. I might be getting into semantics here, though.

Here's something about the Command to Look.

Mortensen insists that the main premise of the Command to Look (CTL) is closer to pure showmanship than anything else. The formula is three-fold:

1. The picture must, by its mere arrangement, make you look at it (impact)
2. and having looked—see! (subject interest)
3. and having seen—enjoy! (participation)

All three of these elements must be fully activated before the artist—or magician—can be said to have successfully “commanded to look.” All three, however, work in such rapid succession that it is almost always effected unconsciously with regard to the viewer—and therefore the artist must carefully formulate his images to work efficiently in all three elements.

Photomenon - The Command to Look

And then there's this

 

[Randall]

Point taken. People have sometimes used the term Lesser Black Magic to include non-supernatural, manipulative uses of psychology, stage magic, and so forth. But a lot of what is called magic, as practiced, does hinge upon induced psychological reactions. I'm guessing that many practitioners recognize that a significant portion of their activities revolve around creating psychological change in themselves or others, with or without reference to supernatural activity. I might be getting into semantics here, though.

Semantics is the primary means of conveying what we mean here, and I wish everyone would state their views with equal clarity and precision.

... And then there's this ( The AIDA Formula ).

You know what's really scary ... there are actually people like that out there, like that guy ( who remains unnamed ) with the really bad 3 way sweep for a hairdo who's made the phrase "You're fired" into a brand slogan. I have this theory that guys like that were once the victimn of some other corporate jerk, so they decided to build an empire so it would never happen to them again. But then just like abusive parents, the cycle repeats itself and they end up becoming the evil boss who does it to the next victim.

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

You know what's really scary ... there are actually people like that out there, like that guy ( who remains unnamed ) with the really bad 3 way sweep for a hairdo who's made the phrase "You're fired" into a brand slogan. I have this theory that guys like that were once the victimn of some other corporate jerk, so they decided to build an empire so it would never happen to them again. But then just like abusive parents, the cycle repeats itself and they end up becoming the evil boss who does it to the next victim.

And what's also scary is that these men become heroes for people who want to have that sort of power.

 

[exo_doc]

In my pursuit of spiritual searching I have become a Mystic (in the sense of looking within for God or the Universe, or whatever is there).
I've studied Deloris Ashcroft Nowiki's "Magical Use of Thoughtforms" and it makes a very compelling case for other kinds of thoughtforms on a personal level rather than a group mind.
I wanted to ask T Allen Greenfield some questions but couldn't think of the right ones to ask. Hope he comes back on again.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

He will be back.

 

[nameless]

I like the perspective we get from the years of experience of these guests that we don't get from books and videos alone. It was relaxed and interesting. Good show .

A comment on the Dark Power of Hitler to influence large numbers of people with the power of his voice. This had less to do with magic and everything to do with the pioneering use of PA ( public address ) systems, radio, film, and TV, all of which were coming together for the first time in history to give individuals the ability to be heard and seen at distances never before possible, and consequently influence large numbers of people quickly. Hitler's appearances before large crowds were more like appearances of a rock star than a politician, and that format has gone on to be used by politicians the world over. Apparently Hitler even planned a National cable broadcast system dedicated to this cause:

"Adolf Hitler was on the verge of creating an Orwellian-style cable TV system tobroadcast Nazi propaganda around Germany." ( Article )​

​

No it was black magic ritual within the context of what a ritualised magical ritual for nefarious means entails and not what joe public misinterprets by the basic layman harry potter prejudiced misunderstanding of what magic or magick means .

 

[nameless]

heres another magic ritual in the form of a sigil or painting in 1936;

 

[nameless]

heres a magick sigil;

 

[nameless]

Advertising and some public performaces can be inadvertantly magick rituals or sigils , good or bad. Advertising i fear is mostly black magic. Most artists understand and know this thats why they end up fucking with the occult or being influenced by it.

Enchantment through, music, sound, theatre, flashing lights, acting and story telling can be traced back to the shamanic rituals of old. Enchantment or glamour as we associate it in modern culture with the glamorisation of celebrities or lifestyles in the media takes its name from "glamis" or glamour itself a scottish name for a shapeshifter and to cast a glamor is a magical enchantment.

 

[nameless]

He will be back.

Thanks for a great solo show Gene. Really interesting.
I wanted to ask him, maybe for a future show what Allen thought about occult organisations and wether he had joined any. I also wanted to know what he thougt about Robert Anton Wilson, wether he met him or not, it seems like they had a lot in common.
Anyway peace gene.

 

[exo_doc]

I've studied sigils especially the kind you create. Austin Osmond Spare developed or refined a system of creating sigils that were supposed to work on the sub-conscious to bring about changes within.

NAMELESS.........is that Hitler in the painting above? Is that an actual painting from 1936? I had no idea Hitler was so.....gay.

 

[nameless]

I've studied sigils especially the kind you create. Austin Osmond Spare developed or refined a system of creating sigils that were supposed to work on the sub-conscious to bring about changes within.

NAMELESS.........is that Hitler in the painting above? Is that an actual painting from 1936? I had no idea Hitler was so.....gay.

If you studied sigils then you would know that that painting was by Austin Osman Spare! and was created by him when commissioned by Hitler to produce a magickal portrait, in response he painted a self portrait imitating Adolf and inverting the sieg heil with the left hand horns as a kind of fuck you. AOS's house would later be bombed in the blitz which Austin took personally as retaliation.

 

[exo_doc]

If you studied sigils then you would know that that painting was by Austin Osman Spare! and was created by him when commissioned by Hitler to produce a magickal portrait, in response he painted a self portrait imitating Adolf and inverting the sieg heil with the left hand horns as a kind of fuck you. AOS's house would later be bombed in the blitz which Austin took personally as retaliation.

Yeah well my spelling ain't so good.
Anyway, thanks for sharing. I had no idea Spare knew dur Furer much less did anything for him. And can you blame Spare for thinking Hitler was out to get him? I know it's paranoid thinking but..........

 

[nameless]

Amongst occultists at the time Spare was internationally renowned, his services sought by many. including old Uncle AL and even king of the witches himself Gerald Gardner asked him to help get bak something which was stolen from him so the story goes.