The Phoenix Lights Thread

[Skymon876]

Ok so there has been alot of media coverage about the recent 15th anniversary of the mass sighting estimated witnessed by 10 thousand people. I included a poll with this thread but here is an excellent Geospatial Animation credit to Larry Lowe. This was done very nicely.

 

[Aardvark]

An excellent video review of the Phoenix Lights event. Thanks RygyWa.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Planes/jets flying in formation for the earlier 8-8:30 sightings (Still floors me that when asked about the Terry Proctor video Leslie Kean said on the Paracast that she hadn't heard of it. Hello! She wrote a book and was involved in a documentary which featured the Phoenix Lights yet she doesn't know about that video?!), flare drops for the 10 o'clock sightings. Clear as a blue sky because we have video evidence affirming those two conclusions and only witness claims for the extraordinary. Amazing that this incident is still getting attention after 15 years. If it's a good case then what is a bad one?

 

[Aardvark]

Sean, I'm not sure whether you are a Believer or a Debunker as I read that entry.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

The thing that gets me is the reports from people saying that they saw something that was silent and blocked out the stars - one woman said if she'd opened up a newspaper she could not have blocked it out in the sky.
Wasn't Fyfe Simington a former pilot?

Where as I don't doubt that flares were filmed and there were jets in the sky - jets make a lot of noise. A lot of noise. No chance could a formation of jets fly overhead, blocking out all the stars between them and flying silently. Not like a jet can glide either - it would drop like a stone, having such a high stall speed.

I do wonder whether there were so many craft. If a craft were as big as reported then I would imagine it would be very easy to mistake it's range, none of us having experienced such scale for reference in the past. Maybe the same craft when sighted from different locations could look more right-angled or more boomerang shaped etc.

My take on the night is that something out of the ordinary was seen and then the military cleverly put on a couple of shows to muddy the waters. Quite similar to what happened later in Stephenville Tx?

But I don't know!

 

[GeoShift]

Can you say a mile wide? I knew you could. Don't mean to go all Mr. Rogers here, but dang, from what the people described seeing, those are huge ships! It would be amazing to see something like that. It's odd though, out of all the people who say they saw these things, not one piece of good video footage?

 

[CitizenK]

I think as far as the video not being very available is due to not many ppl. having this kind of equipment at that time. I know my family couldn't afford camcorders then but now we have all of the latest gadgets...maybe they just didn't have them or maybe it just happened so fast that they didn't want to chance missing it by running in to grab the camcorder...I know when I saw 3 go over my head by not more than 100' running to get my phone to record it was not on top of my priority list! I stood there dumb founded and god smacked by what I was seeing, and I am a believer/experiencer. But I hadn't seen one so close (or at least not that I can 'consciously ' remember,anyway) I was thinking "holy crap, look how big they are, holy shit they're so low, oh my God am I really seeing this?????" And then it was "okay I have to really look at every detail I can see and burn it into my brain forever!" It just blows your mind. It doesn't fit with anything in your data bank and you have to compute this new thing. It's not so simple to just be all cool and be like "Oh yeah I need to get this on film". It warps your brain for a minute (sometimes two) Not everyone deals with or knows how they would really deal with something until it happens to them...there's a reason for the saying "hindsight is 20/20."
I'm sure they feel the same way I do , kicking themselves in the ass for NOT getting on film, not just so others can believe you, but so YOU can see it again. I look to the skies all the time now wishing I could see one again, always carrying my phone now too!
I don't know for sure if this event happen, the case sounds very compelling, but I wasn't there...I can only take the witnesses testimony on faith just as others have to do for my particular sighting mentioned. I know that isn't always creditable as I also know for some a person's word means nothing even if it's multiple ppl. all saying the same thing.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I consider this poll to be flawed. The Phoenix case comprises two events: the 8:30 giant triangle sightings and the 10 PM lights sightings. I voted flairs (And it looks like I'm the only one) because when I hear lights in regards to Phoenix I think of the 10 PM sightings. I am convinced that the earlier sightings (What I consider the triangle sightings) were of jets or planes flying in formation but the way the poll is currently constructed forces an either/or on you. Looking back perhaps I should have voted for secret aircraft/human since I guess flairs could fall under the human banner but the aircraft involved doesn't necessarily have to be of the "secret" variety.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Sean - jets and planes make a noise. A formation of jets or planes makes a lot of noise. Witnesses reported no noise, even when the crafts were directly above of them. Also, reports of the stars being blacked out lend credence to the idea that single large objects were present rather than formations of jets.
Of course this all only counts if you take the witnesses at their word. One person lying about a UFO I can understand but it is generally accepted the numbers seeing the earlier sighting was in the thousands.
There is the classic saying in ufology that states that the testimony from people considered good enough witnesses in court to help execute someone is being neglected because it is a UFO they are reporting.

I wasn't there, I have seen no video of a UFO from Pheonix. It's just that jets do not in anyway shape or form cover the objects reported.
I respect your opinion on the matter but it doesn't cut it for me (formation theory).

Interestingly, although not evidential, on an episode of the Paracast with Peter Davenport, he stated that he thought the Pheonix lights was the single case that gave him most reason to think there is something behind the UFO enigma. And he had his own multiple witness sighting as well!

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Sean - jets and planes make a noise. A formation of jets or planes makes a lot of noise.

Yeah, that depends on altitude and speed. Planes and jets fly over my place everyday and I hear absolutely nothing because they're polite enough to not do so at low altitude. I can go outside at nearly anytime and spot something in the air but if I were to judge it by sound there hasn't been any aircraft in my skies in a very long time. And by the way flying in formation tends to be done slowly. Doing it balls to the wall would be very dangerous.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I live under the flight path of Europe's busiest heliport and a city airport too. I have worked close up and personal with military jets and they are unbelievable loud. They would have to be at such an altitude for you not to hear them and also, the objects were reported moving too slow to be using conventional lift. They would fall from the sky if normal aircraft.
If even a tenth of witness reports are to be believed there is not a chance in hell it was formations of any aircraft, especially jets. In my opinion of course! But I would challenge anyone who knows about aircraft to explain the size, lack of noise and ability to move so slowly without visible or audible means of lift. I bring a challenge! Who will take it on and shoot me down in flames Bon Scott style?

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I live under the flight path of Europe's busiest heliport and a city airport too. I have worked close up and personal with military jets and they are unbelievable loud. They would have to be at such an altitude for you not to hear them and also, the objects were reported moving too slow to be using conventional lift. They would fall from the sky if normal aircraft.
If even a tenth of witness reports are to be believed there is not a chance in hell it was formations of any aircraft, especially jets. In my opinion of course! But I would challenge anyone who knows about aircraft to explain the size, lack of noise and ability to move so slowly without visible or audible means of lift. I bring a challenge! Who will take it on and shoot me down in flames Bon Scott style?

Have you seen the Terry Proctor video? If not look it up. Those are clearly jets or planes in formation because the position of the lights are not steady. And guess what? There's not much to be heard in the video because A) They aren't moving very fast because the pilots aren't suicidal and B) The altitude is too high to reach the camera. As far as witnesses go, BIG DEAL! Stan Romanek has plenty of witnesses swearing to have seen the things he claims to have experienced but do you believe them? Phoenix has really benefited from a numbers game. "Well, so many witnesses say so and so." It's a big city. If even 1% of the population are flakes you can have thousands (And the case doesn't have that many) of exaggerated or even outright bogus reports.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Some of what you say of course I cannot argue with - as I said, for me it comes down to whether the witnesses were telling the truth or not.

I have always believed there were flares and jets uses - but they were used deliberately so to muddy the waters of the earlier sighting.

I suppose Sean the whole thing with this game is that it comes down to which 'evidence' and testimony people choose to believe. I am aware that choosing is often in large part to people's already existing beliefs in these subjects. No doubt my own too!

But I would say it isn't a fair comparison to bring out Romanek. Many of the Phoenix witnesses dont seem to be on some self-publicising thing and putting 'alien at the back window' videos out!

Again, it comes down to who we choose to believe. I cannot understand how people can get so hung up on a book, written over hundreds of years by people in the middle east! But they do.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Watch the video that Sean is talking about. It makes an excellent case to explain what happened that night. One thing we can all agree on, the videos we always see when people discuss the Phoenix lights is of flares.
The other event is something else, where we have little or no video of. Lets ask ourselves what is more likely? Airplanes flying in formation and people misidentifying them - or - giant alien space craft that flew over a major American city and thousands of people saw but no one got a good show of. Why did no one get a shot of that but we have tons of footage of the flares?

 

[GeoShift]

Sean I also think the 10pm event was flares as pointed out (and as far as I'm concerned debunked) on a UFO Hunters episode. They superimposed the lights as seen on that night against the landscape of that area they were seen at from a day time shot, and the lights or flares matched perfectly to the terrain. This therefore was shown to be a hoax, or a planned diversion to muddy the waters of the earlyer event of a military experiment of some sort, not to exclude the possibility of alien technology.