Titanic insurance fraud ?

[Bob Watson]

as many here know I had a relitive Die on the Titanic. I always been intreged by the ship. this is new to me a plot to switch the Titanic with her sister ship. let me know what you guys think about this.

 

[stonehart]

while researching my 1/200 scale model build of the titanic (not started the model yet still doing study of her) I came upon this little conspiracy myself.

The thing is that yes the Olympic did indeed have parts of the Titanic on her due to damage in two incidents.

This conspiracy was put to bed when sections of the Titanic hull plates were salvaged. Each plate has a unique number stamped on them to note where on the ship it is and what ship it comes from as it helps to know what parts go where when you build a ship and was common practice then as it is now.

Yes the two ships were sister ships but each ship had to be outfitted in their own unique way as there were subtle differences between both hulls, as such a hull plate from the Titanic would not in general have fitted the Olympic.

The number for the Olympic ends with 400 (hull 400) and the Titanic 401(hull 401).

The Hull plates had 401 printed on them which means it was the Titanic that sank.

 

[stonehart]

Just like to add that I have a tendency to go very in depth with a model build as they can take me around two to three years to make. By no means am I an expert on the Titanic but in this case I think it is a simple conspiracy... The only sure way to 100% kill this conspiracy would be to get a section of the keel and find the builders stamp on that for there would be no way to fake that at all ... my bet is it would read 401

It is possible that the Olympic could have been given a hull plate or two from the Titanic and by some twist of fate out of all the wreckage on the ocean floor it happened to be those ones that got salvaged (real long shot).

But I doubt it as the point at which the Olympic was struck by the HMS Hawke was fixed before the two ships met up again

 

[Jabbermocky]

soo it was an act of god.

 

[stonehart]

soo it was an act of god.

lol don't start that in here!!!!

 

[stonehart]

One last thing there are differences as I said between the two ships some cosmetic some not. One that most in these conspiracy's miss out is the arrangement of the enclosed promenaded deck layout. Both ships had very different layouts.
On first glance both ships look almost identical but up close there are many differences as the Titanic was an improvement on her sister in a number of ways.

On the Olympic the layout was a simple promenaded but the white star line noticed that people tended to use the upper deck to walk on as it was open and had a better view, so on the Titanic they turned the lower one into offices and cafe etc. On the wreak you can see the differences as the changes are right where they should be, for if it had been the Olympic that had sunk these changes would not be there. Note that the changes to these decks were made after the titanic was launched so accounts for the discrepancy in window alignment. QED its the Titanic that sunk.

Capt. E. J. Smith had a near perfect record up until his command of the Olympic according to records so I do not know where they got their information on him.... hmm I will have to dig into that.

 

[stonehart]

Ship captain

Smith joined the White Star Line in March 1880 as the Fourth Officer of SS Celtic. He served aboard the company's liners to Australia and to New York City, where he quickly rose in status. In 1887, he received his first White Star command, the Republic. In 1888, Smith earned his Extra Master's Certificate and joined the Royal Naval Reserve (thus entitling him to append his name with "RNR"), qualifying as a full Lieutenant. This meant that in a time of war, he could be called upon to serve in the Royal Navy. Later, as he was a commander in the Royal Naval Reserve, Smith's ship had the distinction of being able to wear the Blue Ensign of the RNR; British merchant vessels generally wore the Red Ensign (also known as the Red Duster).
Bigger commands

Smith was Majestic's captain for nine years commencing in 1895. When the Boer War started in 1899, Majestic was called upon to transport troops to Cape Colony. Smith made two trips to South Africa, both without incident, and for his service King Edward VII awarded him the Transport Medal, showing the "South Africa" clasp, in 1903. Smith was regarded as a "safe captain". As he rose in seniority, he gained a reputation amongst passengers and crew for quiet flamboyance. Some passengers would sail the Atlantic only in a ship he captained. He became known as the "Millionaires' Captain" because England's upper class usually chose to sail on ships that he commanded.
From 1904 on, Smith commanded the White Star Line's newest ships on their maiden voyages. In 1904, he was given command of the then-largest ship in the world, the Baltic. Her maiden voyage from Liverpool to New York, sailing 29 June 1904, went without incident. After three years with Baltic, Smith was given his second new "big ship," the Adriatic. Once again, the maiden voyage went without incident. During his command of Adriatic, Smith received the Royal Naval Reserve's long service decoration, along with a promotion to Commander. By virtue of his receiving the long service decoration, he would now be referred to as "Captain Edward John Smith, RD, RNR", with RD standing for "Reserve Decoration."

 

[stonehart]

Crossed facts on the Titanic name on the bow of the ship. As far as I can ascertain Dr Bob Ballard did not see the name or film it on his first expedition "He carefully counted the port holes along the port side to find where it should be but could only make out the outline of a C"

The French salvage expedition of 1987 attempted to scrape the area where the name Titanic would have been clear but only managed to clear some of the area and caused damage not only here but on other sections of the wreak. The film they show is from neither of these expeditions so I am at a loss as to where they got it from, both Ballard and the French did not film this are extensively.

so its up in the air that one... as for the Propeller, the Titanic had a new one made for her stamped with her number after the Olympic was given one of her's.

 

[nameless]

Futility, or the Wreck of the Titan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

thought i'd throw this into the mix too.

 

[Bob Watson]

ok if this is true if I went to the titanic artifact exibit would I see the number 401 on the hull part?

 

[stonehart]

ok if this is true if I went to the titanic artifact exibit would I see the number 401 on the hull part?

Yes if they have them on display that is correct the stamp number of the hull should read 401

Please note that is the Iron hull plates not the dinner ware

 

[stonehart]

some place on that you will find the hull number

and this

That was the gangway door portside

Random bit of hull

so yes there is enough hull plates to confirm that these came from hull 401

 

[stonehart]

Nice post on where the large section came from that I posted above.

Aboard the Titanic

Note: "The Big Piece was located in an area of the ship that was practically obliterated when the ship split in two. It was one of many fragments of shell plating, along with countless other pieces from the ship’s interior, shed from Titanic as she broke up. The tattered edges, bent plates and twisted beams of the Big Piece are a reminder of the most violent aspect of the sinking."

That was also the section that was replaced on the Olympic so no it was the Titanic that sank as these ships as I said may look the same but the deck structure and porthole (sidelight) arrangement is very different due to the spaces behind.

I little study of the history of her construction and reading the plans will show you how to tell the two ships apart very quickly at close range.

Here is a nice example

 

[Bob Watson]

QTwo big questions remain. Why did white star gived titanic to capt smith? Smith already had run oylimic into things twice. Also did califorian really have 3000 blankets on it?

 

[stonehart]

QTwo big questions remain. Why did white star gived titanic to capt smith? Smith already had run oylimic into things twice. Also did califorian really have 3000 blankets on it?

The first question I can answer right away and as for the second I am investigating that.

Cpt Smith had up till then a very good record and also note that these were extremely big ships that no one else had had to captain before then.
These days we understand the drag force caused by a triple screw setup the way that these first large liners had them setup, but back then it was not really known until after they were built as to how they would react in the water. The fact is the first accident was in retrospect not Cpt Smiths doing but the Admiralty would of course find The Olympic at fault. There are rules as you may know as to who has right of way at sea through the use of port and Starboard lights (Red and Green) but Ships over a certain tonnage or draft have right of way over smaller craft due to the simple logistics of size (faster to stop or turn a smaller ship). You will find if you look at the Olympic she was technically in the right and not the HMS Hawk as the damage to the Olympic indicates a late turn to Olympics Starboard by the HMS Hawk (Hit her almost at the stern). This means that the Olympic was ahead of the Hawk and not the other way round. Also the Olympic was of much greater draft and size.

Vessels at sea do not actually have any "right of way"—they may be, correctly, in the position of being the "stand on vessel" or the "give way" vessel. Therefore, at no time should any vessel actually navigate its way into a collision, and the regulations are clear that no one in command of a vessel may assume a "right of way" up to a point of collision.

Consider two ships on courses that intersect. The ordinary rule is that the ship on the left must give way. The stand on vessel sees the green light on the starboard (right) side of the ship on the left. The give way vessel sees the red light on the port side of the stand on vessel. If the courses are intersecting, the helmsman usually gives way to a red light by going around the stern of the stand on vessel.
There are other rules governing which is a stand on vessel, such as the wind based rules for sailing vessels, powered ships giving way to sailing ships, and all other ships giving way to powered vessels that are constrained by their draft or restricted in their ability to maneuver. Therefore the green light does not mean an unqualified go, but rather it means proceed with caution subject to other rules applying. The earliest railway signals went red/green/white (as per the stern light) for stop/caution/go following this naval practice and were only later changed to the more familiar red/yellow/green.
The very simple application of red light and green light is that if the helmsman sees a red light, the helmsman should make sure that the other vessel can see his green light,which usually means giving way. If he sees a green light, he should stand on, but without getting into a collision situation.
The sailing rule that dictates that a sailing vessel on starboard tack is the stand on vessel is as old as any other regulation. Likewise, if on the same tack, a sailing vessel that is upwind of another is the give way vessel.

As for the second accident it was a grounding that damaged the port Propeller if I remember correctly.

 

[stonehart]

Regardless of any of the above there is one thing that shows that indeed it is the Titanic that now lays rusting on the ocean floor and that is the deck arrangement.

The Inside deck arrangement was totally different to that of the Olympics, as such with the expeditions that have now gone deep inside her hull they would have noticed the difference very quickly as they would not have been able to use the construction plans to pin point where they were.

1. Titanic's forward section of her "A" deck promenade was enclosed with windows so that passengers were better protected from the elements. Olympic's was wide open.

2.In addition to the "A" deck open promenade, Olympic also had a "B" deck enclosed promenade. Bruce Ismay considered the "B" deck space a waste, because passengers were not using it as much as the "A" deck promenade. So on Titanic, the "B" deck space was incorporated into First class cabins. One with a private promenade. This was not changed on Olympic until 1913.

3. Further aft on the starboard side of "B" deck. Andrews designed a new restaurant that resembled a french sidewalk cafe. Long and narrow with dozens of windows on one side that looked out upon the ocean. White painted walls covered with green ivy climbing white trellises. This restraint was named the Cafe Parisian. This was not added to the Olympic until after the Titanic sinking.

4. Because of all the changes made to "B" deck, the outside windows had a sporadic spacing between them. While Olympic's windows were evenly spaced the whole length of the deck.

5. Numerous vent and window configuration consistent with the Olympic helps to give distinct separation from the Titanic and can be observed in both photographic and plan evidence.

That is just the outer hull so you see what I mean.

 

[Bob Watson]

After reading the pos here and doing my own research I'm now 100% sure the ship that sank on april 14th 1912 was the titanic. Also 2 titanic mysterys my great grandma cleared up in her account.
1.as tthe ship sank there was a panic ppl rushed back she heard the violin orcastra play audam then nearer thy god to thee..
2 on the carpathia she saw ismy go to his cabin his face lined with shame and guilt...

 

[mike]

I think this guys book is whats caused these idea's

'I can prove it was not Titanic that sank' (From thisisoxfordshire)

Titanic And Olympic Conspiracy Theory

 

[Bob Watson]

Let's pretend for a moment that it really happened like this. Says it did that the two ships were switched. That it was an act to collect money. Well 1500 still died. Including thomas andrews head degigner for white star. Ismy was ruined. Branded a coward he was forced to retire. He never allowed the titanic to be mentioned in his presance. White star never truely recovered. The loss of britanic in 1916 put a nail in white stars coffin. They merged with cunard in 1930 in 1937 the last sister olymic was scraped.
If true the ends did not justify the means...

 

[Bob Watson]

according to my great grandma these were the last music she heard from the ships brave musicans.
1;

2;