U.F.O., Is It Enough to Believe in E.T.

[PararealitySaint]

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For those of you whom haven’t been privy to the array of arguments which have been thrown about this forum, shot forth like a wild gunfight in the old west, let me start by pointing out where I believe this subject should go here and be hopefully limited to:

1. The discussion in this thread should be ONLY on the subject…..Is the sightings and whatever “evidence” from thus enough to believe in or somehow purport dedicating one’s entire position on E.T. as the answer alone.
2. Please cease from taking one’s personal religious beliefs (unless you made E.T. your personal religion) and comparing thus to the subject in some form of explanation for why everyone should just believe E.T. is the only answer.
3. Can the supposed facts elicited from the phenomena be enough to warrant this as the only conclusion, or are there viable divergent explanations.
4. If there are other explanations, what are they and can they stand the test of time.

Now then, since I started this thread (God help me), I thought I’d briefly state my “theory” on this subject. Notice first of all that I stated this is a “theory” and should not be construed as the only answer out there. I am not here to judge, but I won’t stand for those who do, and you will see my reactions to those who think they know it all and have all the answers and "everyone else is obviously wrong":

1. I believe E.T. isn’t an E.T. but inter-dimensional in both origin and continuance.
2. I believe the Word of God, known as the Bible, clearly explains the phenomenon and that these creatures are Demonic and malevolent.
3. I am open to the existence of other life forms in the universe of this dimension, but I do not believe this is what the many victims are experiencing with the abduction phenomenon.
4. I do not believe that E.T., and even if there is a such a thing, cares less about humanity. If an intelligence of this level, having to originate from millions of miles away, has the capacity to travel and do what it is he or she or it does, then our meager level of intelligence wouldn’t stand a chance as any interest to them. It would be likened to a scientist observing a small hive of ants, smiling, taking perhaps a few seconds to watch, and then moving on.
5. On the other hand, If there was an E.T. interested in us, it wouldn’t hide…it would directly control our lives and do so without the “human” worry of direct involvement or directive. Benevolence and malevolence are human tendencies….In my opinion they wouldn’t stand a chance as an intelligence beyond the measure of our understanding, and wouldn’t see a comparative moral to a level so far below their own. It would be like a human being having a measure of guilt picking his nose because the bacteria in this orifice will now die as it hits the open air. The "picker" would think only of the nasal relief instead of the consequences of the death of that bacterium.

So there is where I stand. I have developed this conclusion from years of research and study into the possibility of E.T. in the context of the U.F.O. topic.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Whether you agree or disagree about my theory, I am more than open to “honorably” discuss the subject with you. Although I am usually very skeptical about many subjects in this world we share, I do feel pretty adamant about what I have written above. This leaves some of you to conclude that I am no longer skeptical as to the subject. This is untrue. I am a skeptic who needs to find the truth behind what is happening out there. I approach every case as though there are many answers to what is happening, and continue to do so until the “truth be told” one day. The difference is “faith” and “science” are two different bedfellows, and my "Theory" is based solely on faith alone. I do not have any outwardly concrete scientific proof to my theory on other intelligent life, and this leaves my dedication back to where a skeptic should be.... honestly open to all input, but human with a belief nonetheless.

 

[trainedobserver]

I think the bottom line on the subject is something like this.

UFOs are unidentified by definition. Any speculation about their origin, nature, and purpose should not lead to any belief about them. If it does we should examine our thinking and standards of evidence and retool them accordingly.

Until such a time as someone positively identifies something as being of extra-terrestrial origin through scientific analysis (detecting non-earth material or tracking an object in from deep space) it is pure speculation as to that being their origin.

Religious belief systems and the religious texts they generate (and not just the various Christian ones) are not good tools for determining anything about history, how the world works, or the true nature of reality. I'm sorry but they just aren't as evidenced by the wildly different world-views the various religious belief systems generate. Attempting to interpret anything in life through the lens of a religious belief system is beneficial only as part the religious practice. It does little good in identifying origins of something like the UFO phenomena because it presupposes the answer. I fully understand why you believe that the UFO and abduction phenomena is demonic. I once held beliefs similar to your own (I was a Baptist) and interpreted the phenomena as demonic myself at one time. The belief system allows for little else given the various allegations and unsubstantiated claims people make about the phenomena.

I think if any real assessment of the phenomena is to be made it must be done sans the prejudice that beliefs may impose. This includes religious belief systems certainly but also other belief systems which override the unbiased consideration of evidence. Some people believe UFOs don't exist counter to eye witness and radar evidence. Some people believe life on other planets could not reach us, and so forth.

During the 40 some odd years I have been looking at this I have fallen prey to every belief about the phenomena that exists I'm quite sure. In the end, or should I say, at this point in the game, I attribute most UFO phenomena to numerous prosaic sources. For the cases where that does not apply, and there are many, I see no reason to assume one thing or another about them.

Probability has to play a large role in interpreting UFO phenomena. What is the most probable cause? What do we know as opposed to what do we speculate? We know human beings create technology. The most probable cause for a display of technology is human activity. Past that we fall into the realm of speculation and great uncertainty. Your belief that UFOs are demonic in origin is informed by your religious belief. To discuss whether UFOs are demonic with you I would have to default to challenging the basis for your religious beliefs which I really don't care to do.

UFOs are unidentified.

“Something is seen, but one doesn’t know what.”
Carl Jung, Flying Saucers:A Modern Myth of Thing Seen in the Sky.

 

[tyder001]

Leaving the questions of fundlemental belief aside it is a major question as to how an alien presence would affect people. For instance what if they truly are very evolved "spirits" as in having evolved beyond the point of embodiement. What if they come from another dimension and what if we find that what we call the "afterlife" is a continuation in a different vehicle than the physcial body? What if they are time travelers from our own future and they are not able (Prime Directive) to actually stop us from our mistakes but are still observing them. What if they are "us" from a paralelle world? What if they "seeded" us and the whole fossil record is put in a place where it has nothing to actually do with our origins? What if they are the "Great Old Ones?" (H.P.Lovecraft anyone?)

I know we talk alot about what it would mean for religion and I can understand that. But, what would it mean for science? What if you found that your ancestors came from the stars? Not just as a "seeded" population but as an actual being with no relationship what so ever to the "humanoids" on earth?

One thing I do know is there are different ways to look at it.

1. We really are alone and it means we really are unique and the creator of the cosmos really did/does have a plan especially for man.
2. We really are alone and we are a cosmic accident with no god/goddess/or even evolutioanry force called natural selection. It means absolutely nothing and we are just on a ride to nowhere.
3. There are planets and evolution is an ongoing designed process throuhout the cosmos.
4. There are other planets with life and evoloution and natural selection will always come back to the humanoid form and the bigger brain for survival purposes.
5. There are other planets and life that is more spirutally evolved and they know the secrets (or at least more than we do) of the universe.
6. We are a holographic universe and the equivalent of a six year old kid is about to push his delete button.
7. It can go on and on can't it?

 

[trainedobserver]

What if they are the "Great Old Ones?" (H.P.Lovecraft anyone?)

Certainly, the great seas of infinity contain far worse things of which we should be thankful to remain cheerfully ignorant.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Thanks for the reply and you input into this query.

In every attempt I have made to discuss the theories of either Alien abduction, E.T. or any of the phenomena pertaining to this subject, I have always done so with my "opinion" and nothing more. You will find in every one of my threads a consistent "theory" based explanation for each of them. I have done this ever since I realized just what it was these "wannabes" would throw out there as "definitive" proof of the existence of thus....

As to my "Christian" usage or background or even influence, this is not and has never been the end-all in the determination of my investigative conclusions. Those cases where I could not find a natural or even govt. or human explanation or condition, I have always left as "unidentified" and kept it in its proper area of study.

The real problem I have always had is in those radially based and overtly biased know everything's who just "KNOW" E.T. is behind every explanation, including those where we don't have the answers as of yet for. These Know-it-alls are very fast to state beyond the shadow of a doubt that E.T. is behind it and there isn't anything else to it.

How they can assume this is nothing more than years of being fed an agenda from the Hollywood myth makers and stories such as the "human" tragedy at Roswell is sometimes shocking, and dare I say it, worth psychological study in certain "anally retentive" cases.

In short they have taken a "faith based" agenda driven idea an ingrained it into their explanation and belief. This is something which has no place in the scientific world and even though my theory sounds very "primitive" to them, why can't it be just as real as little gray aliens running around?

Bronze Age belief.....New Age Belief.....Key=BELIEF not FACT. At least as far as I'm concerned....Not yet.


---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

I know we talk alot about what it would mean for religion and I can understand that. But, what would it mean for science? What if you found that your ancestors came from the stars? Not just as a "seeded" population but as an actual being with no relationship what so ever to the "humanoids" on earth?

It would confirm that although the Bible is wholesome and complete, there is always room for more. The very idea that they might have come from the stars is fine with me, as the Word states God created it all.

One thing I do know is there are different ways to look at it.

1. We really are alone and it means we really are unique and the creator of the cosmos really did/does have a plan especially for man.
2. We really are alone and we are a cosmic accident with no god/goddess/or even evolutioanry force called natural selection. It means absolutely nothing and we are just on a ride to nowhere.
3. There are planets and evolution is an ongoing designed process throuhout the cosmos.
4. There are other planets with life and evoloution and natural selection will always come back to the humanoid form and the bigger brain for survival purposes.
5. There are other planets and life that is more spirutally evolved and they know the secrets (or at least more than we do) of the universe.
6. We are a holographic universe and the equivalent of a six year old kid is about to push his delete button.
7. It can go on and on can't it?

These are all excellent examples of how to look at things....but here I think you hit it right on the head Tyder....LOOK at things.....Not commit your very life's blood to answering everyone in the world, always, that E.T. is behind the very science you utilize every day. Or that E.T. has visited the world here and given us so much...and helped us with the pyramids, or made the waters part when Moses commanded.

It's like having this preset condition spewed forth on a daily basis without so much as one iota of any evidence pointing to it's supposed obviousness whatsoever! They do this because of people out there in the U.F.O. world who are looking to make money so they continue to use the old 50's saucer and little spaceman stories to influence their investigations, and this to a point where it "has to be the real thing"....and the difference between "Theory" and "Reality" should be very closely scrutinized and always attained....so as not to make to much of an "ass" out of any Marvin wannabe..

 

[mike]

What a joke, you say you want to discuss this honerably, but your last line reads

so as not to make to much of an "ass" out of any Marvin wannabe..

Youve demon...strated time and time again with words like dolt and anus and wannabe, that insults are all you really have as a counter to ideas that dont fit your myth

The only wannabe here is you, its the bible you wannabe true......and its clearly its not

ill add a quote from one of the best sites on the net

You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

It would confirm that although the Bible is wholesome and complete

wholesome ?

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

http://www.evilbible.com/Evil Bible Quotes.htm

complete ?

If the Bible was divinely inspired, then why would it have so many really obvious contradictions?

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39

Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23

plenty more here

http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical Contradictions.htm
Completely contradicts itself you mean ?

 

[PararealitySaint]

And as you can see by the above sadly misinformed and badly overgrown bias based interpretation of a conglomeration of religious bashing, no supplement for actual scientific mainstay can possibly shine forth better than to pan every other theory except that of the E.T. radical.

Place them in a room where actual discussion is based on theoretical guidelines and are confirmed to be just that, and the immediate result is a defensive posture to prove how others have to be wrong, and only they in the, "I am right and will prove it by panning you" mode must be wrong.

I could spend hours and hours and probably a really good laugh, sitting here staring down at this very important list of Biblical conflicts and contradictions (as if I or anyone else must be wrong about E.T. because of thus!) and show how interpretation, mixed with divergent human reporting can conflict in the eye-witnessing, yet....

WAIT just a second.....

Isn't that what is happening today with the U.F.O. phenomena.

Yup....Exactly why it's so necessary young Mikey to always look at the subject as "perhaps" and not "without doubt definitely" that you know what you know it is....

So....

A. There has never been an extraterrestrial presence on this earth.
B. There is an extraterrestrial presence on this earth.
C. I have faith there was one because I need to believe I too can be a special little man and have everyone think I'm the savior of the galaxy....

Or,

By gathering the data, analyzing the information, and then formulating a hypothesis, I have come to the conclusion that the object reported is possibly an unknown craft, which does not fit in any known human or terrestrial science or scientific advancement we know of today. Eyewitness reporting has the craft as cylindrical in shape, no sound and no external exhaust noted.

Wow. Most of those conclusions shown before the "or" seem to be definitive in their posture, and this based on nothing more than an overactive imagination, mixed with a lot of re-defined prerequisites, lodged in their short little mixed up minds; that the brainwashing they've been given will actually somehow suffice their fears and completely fulfill their otherwise irrelevant existence.

The other conclusion written after the "or" leaves the possibility it could be anything, from an anomalous happenstance, to an E.T., to a Demon, to nothing more than the ole U.S. Govt. or some other govt. covertly testing their latest achievement.

Perhaps this time...And I so pray it becomes the case.....This time the reality behind why it is so important not to embellish this phenomena with imbecilic notions of little gray men and genome testing, actually can be seen as senseless in the light of no evidence or real reasoning whatsoever, other than some eyewitness reports and perhaps a radar confirmation or two.