UFOs and Time Travel

[IsoBan]

I'm beginning to suspect that if you take the situation objectively, the most likely explanation for what's going on on this planet is the most obvious, and somehow the most extraordinary.

I believe what we're seeing is 'us'. I think we're seeing humanity as represented by travelers from some other time, not aliens from some other place.

This theory fits all the facts while keeping to the simplicity of occam's razor for the following reasons:

1. This explains why they resemble us in so many unexpected ways, why their 'evolution' seems roughly analogous to our own. Virtually all reports of 'visitors' have a roughly humanoid shape. Some are 'near' human. This is humanity after Ray Kurzweil's and Verner Vinge's 'Singularity'... they have adapted themselves through genetics, nanotechnological breakthroughs, and robotics. There are many species of humanity through the eons of time.

2. This explains why they are here in droves, apparently, and why the descriptions of craft vary so wildly: we're seeing humanity from a plethora of different future contexts.

3. This very comfortably explains their occasional *bald-faced lies. Its not illogical to assume that revealing themselves as 'the future of humanity' could result in the sort of damaging paradoxes that scientists and science fiction authors have always described. Most people expect them to say "we're from the next star over" because this is perhaps much more palatable than "we're from 4,000 years from now, or 20 million years in the future. Instead of revealing anything concrete, they create a much more generalized cloud of confusion- contradiction and outright weirdness. And then of course there is the impunity with which they seem to lord over humanity in some experiencer's claims. A suitable metaphor would be that if I could go back in time and influence myself, I would have few ethical delimmas with bitchslapping myself into getting into better shape and avoiding student loans. After all, my future self is wiser and far more experienced than my younger self.
With widespread confusion in place, any definitive knowledge of the future is well buried in an impenetrable haystack, while allowing the 'visitors' to nudge humanity here and there. This could also explain intense interest in specific individuals...perhaps their genetic line is significant at some distant point in the future.

4. One of the arguments often raised against the possibility of time travel is " if its possible, we'd already see the effects. Why doesn't somebody visit from the future? Why isn't it ubiquitous?" Well, perhaps it is, but what these people expect to see is something very different. In reality, its been here from a long time, but these travelers are careful not to upset the applecart of humanity's development until time travel was developed in 'sidereal' time.

5. This hypothesis also neatly explains the 'extraterrestrial obsession with Earth's environment'. They seem to be constantly giving us the message that we need to shape up and save our world. Perhaps this is their attempt to rectify what is the undesirable past of their own history. This at first seems to contradict their 'no screwing with the past' rule described above, until you consider:

6. Possibly the reason for the increase in high profile sightings in the last few years represents a lesser need for discretion on their part because we are entering the period in which the secrets of time travel are about to be discovered in our own time. In other words, its possible we are about to enter into the sphere in which humanity's own timeline becomes recursive. A certain very large collider is about to go online, and while this is likely not a 'supernova' event of discovery, it may be that discovery from this and other sources in the next few years lead up a sudden explosion of workable theory...given that discovery and development is on an ever-accelerating curve, our understanding of time and the universe could evolve very, very quickly over the next decade.

The more I consider this temporal theory of UFOs, the more convinced I am that this is the best logical hypothesis.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

It's a theory I'm open to. Glad I'm human now and not then though, I like having hair. At least in certain places that is.

 

[reptillian]

Thats something I've definatly thought about. It would make a lot of sense as to why they dont hurt us and are just studying us.

 

[7 String]

That makes alot of sense and it runs parallel with some great notions. Some where along the line in my exploration of this subject I came along something about time travel that stated "it's very possible, but we can get travel back further than the day that the time machine ( for lack of a better word ) came from. So basically if we are visiting ourselves according to this theory the time travel thing has been mastered years ago? I'm not on this one,,, what are your thoughts?

~A

 

[Polterwurst]

Hey lookit I found a thread about time travel. So I don't have to bother the gorillas any more.

Although it's no more than SciFi speculation I confess, I think time travel might be a real possibility to account for unexplainable UFOs, especially if you allw for the abduction scenarios and the historical reports of "shields" and "signs" in the sky to be valid and having some very real connection with "unexplainable" UFOs.

Most of my reasons for that have been covered in the opening post by IsoBan. So just some thoughts here.

1. the greys: why should an alien race be humanoid and have features that remind of ourselves? I mean, other than the low budget of a sci-fi television show or movie producer who wants to portray aliens, what better reason would there be than that they are our very far descendants (and I'm not talking a few thousand but maybe millions of years in the future)?

2. if anything is true about abductee's accounts of the aliens warning us about the future of our planet, of environmental problems etc., what better reason would there be for them than because it's their own planet, too, just in the far future, where maybe some of the sins committed now still have repercussions?

3. Why don't they land on the white house lawn? Why do they seem to want to avoid open detection or being taken serious by behaving strangely? Well, maybe the grandfather paradox does have an impact but only if they really give away that they are here.

4. At the same time, if they want to avoid detection, why are there still so many credible reports from all over the place of so many different kind of craft? I guess, once you figure out how space-time can be folded, tunneled, crumpled or whatever (without too great of an energy cost), every new generation of scientists, students, even tourists and kids would want to go on an ancient history safari, see the dinosaurs, the neanderthals or those funny guys at the beginning of the 21st century who thought they had figured it all out (myself included)

5. Historical UFOs. Yes, maybe reports throughout the centuries, from roman times etc, or even pictograms in cave paintings that look like they might be UFOs or little greys, mean that "they" have come from deep space millennia ago. But time travel (IMO) is obviously a possibility here.

 

[mike]

Yeah, transbiological humans from the future is a definate possibility Imo

It ticks an awful lot of the boxes.

An even broader outline of the scenario runs like this.

Humans perfect this technology

How to become immortal: Upload your mind - by Terrence Aym - Helium

And become transbiological, the vast majority of the population inhabiting these "grey" biovessels, then the sun goes nova, so they start going downtime to recycle those conciousness's that were "wasted" as we sometimes refer to death in the movies. So they reach a point where they have uploaded everyone and their population stagnates through lack of new members.

So they go downtime again, make a significant change, and create a new timeline, another branch. Literally a created universe, start all over again.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Don't know if we're being visited by time travelers, don't even know if we're being visited at all. But on a purely hypothetical note it seems to me that if a civilization were to develop time travel into the past then they would have basically become omnipotent. Any mistake or undesired outcome could be corrected. It would explain a lot of things; the secrecy (Avoiding paradoxes and alterations to history), the absence of proof (Left the alien ashtray behind? Just go back and unleave it behind). But time travel into the past appears to be no easy task. Our physicists who are normally able to work up all sorts of magic with mathematics haven't been able to come up with a way to do it even on theoretical level. I've heard of some theories before that had the unfortunate downside of necessitating the power of galaxies or even the entire universe but even those ones were found to have problems after they were looked at more closely. Seems to me that nearly anything is possible given enough mathematical and engineering know-how but time travel into the past (I keep saying into the past because the ability to travel into the future was proven long ago) appears to be one thing the universe tries to prevent from happening. But if someone can figure out how to do it? I wouldn't want to get on their bad side.

 

[mike]

Of note is the 6:00 mark in this one in regards to time travel..............

 

[Posey Gilbert]

Actually guys, this would be just dimensional hopping not time travel.
The dimension you left behind would remain as you left it.
The grandfather you killed would not be yours, for you would not really be of that dimension.
So while your at it have a ball, go on kill off grandma kill them all.
It would have no effect on you any way.
Thus if the Greys really are coming from the future, it's not our future, but another timeline or dimension.

 

[mike]

The word "dimension" has so many contextual meanings, i really find it hard to consider it a useful one in the UFO question for example

Time A temporal dimension is a dimension of time. Time is often referred to as the "fourth dimension" for this reason, but that is not to imply that it is a spatial dimension. A temporal dimension is one way to measure physical change. It is perceived differently from the three spatial dimensions in that there is only one of it, and that we cannot move freely in time but subjectively move in one direction.

The equations used in physics to model reality do not treat time in the same way that humans commonly perceive it. The equations of classical mechanics are symmetric with respect to time, and equations of quantum mechanics are typically symmetric if both time and other quantities (such as charge and parity) are reversed. In these models, the perception of time flowing in one direction is an artifact of the laws of thermodynamics (we perceive time as flowing in the direction of increasing entropy).

The best-known treatment of time as a dimension is Poincaré and Einstein's special relativity (and extended to general relativity), which treats perceived space and time as components of a four-dimensional manifold, known as spacetime, and in the special, flat case as Minkowski space.

[edit] Additional dimensionsTheories such as string theory and M-theory posit that physical space has 10 and 11 dimensions, respectively. These extra dimensions are said to be spatial. However, we perceive only three spatial dimensions and, to date, no experimental or observational evidence is available to confirm the existence of these extra dimensions. A possible explanation that has been suggested is that space acts as if it were "curled up" in the extra dimensions on a subatomic scale, possibly at the quark/string level of scale or below.

 

[Posey Gilbert]

The word "dimension" has so many contextual meanings, i really find it hard to consider it a useful one in the UFO question for example

I disagree with somethings in that article Mike.
However I have seen and taped what these things can do.
I've witnessed with others how they can pass from one dimension into our dimension.
When I was abducted in 1991 that was how they moved me from my home to a park three blocks away where their craft was waiting.
They took me into what I can only describe as a wall of darkness.
In the mass abduction in the Bronx circa 1957-58 I was told by one of the entities that they sometimes used dimensions to travel.
Excerpted from The Long Dream.

I asked why their ship looked bigger inside than outside and was told that we were not actually in the ship but a kind of a pocket they had generated that was why the light behaved as it did.
I was told they did not always use craft but sometimes used these pockets.
I guess now it was because of the volume of people they were working with at that time they had landed the craft, but I didn't think to ask that, but did realize that was what the Saurian had meant the night before about shifting into another dimension that we could not see them but they could see us.

To read the full article see​

The Long Dream​

But to go off topic for a moment here I must ask, Why does everyone here only speak of the Greys?
Isn't it known that there are more than one species of these so called "Greys" visiting this world, and that they sometimes work with entirely different species?

 

[Polterwurst]

4. At the same time, if they want to avoid detection, why are there still so many credible reports from all over the place of so many different kind of craft? I guess, once you figure out how space-time can be folded, tunneled, crumpled or whatever (without too great of an energy cost), every new generation of scientists, students, even tourists and kids would want to go on an ancient history safari, see the dinosaurs, the neanderthals or those funny guys at the beginning of the 21st century who thought they had figured it all out (myself included)

...which would explain the "sight-seeing" aspect of many reports. UFOs with big portholes and figures standing behind them, apparently looking down. UFOs turning up over war zones. UFOs turning up at technologically important sites like power plants or military installations. Sometimes they even seem to look for individual people like John Lennon, Robbie Williams (they seem to have a thing for musicians, does anybody know if Elvis had a sighting? ) or Jimmy Carter (in whose case I am actually asking myself if the color change - white, red, blue may have been some kind of time traveller joke).

One problem is of course that there are lots of historical events that you would expect to be overcrowded with UFO reports, while there actually aren't any. I wonder how they - all hypothetically of course - would avoid time traffic accidents for example when Columbus arrived in America. That one strange nocturnal light reported during that voyage doesn't really count (might have been something natural). Instead they have accidents over the godforsaken desert somewhere.

That's all nothing but speculation of course. I'm not buying into my own crap. It's just fun to ponder that IMO.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Hey lookit I found a thread about time travel. So I don't have to bother the gorillas any more.

Although it's no more than SciFi speculation I confess, I think time travel might be a real possibility to account for unexplainable UFOs, especially if you allw for the abduction scenarios and the historical reports of "shields" and "signs" in the sky to be valid and having some very real connection with "unexplainable" UFOs.

Most of my reasons for that have been covered in the opening post by IsoBan. So just some thoughts here.

1. the greys: why should an alien race be humanoid and have features that remind of ourselves? I mean, other than the low budget of a sci-fi television show or movie producer who wants to portray aliens, what better reason would there be than that they are our very far descendants (and I'm not talking a few thousand but maybe millions of years in the future)?

2. if anything is true about abductee's accounts of the aliens warning us about the future of our planet, of environmental problems etc., what better reason would there be for them than because it's their own planet, too, just in the far future, where maybe some of the sins committed now still have repercussions?

3. Why don't they land on the white house lawn? Why do they seem to want to avoid open detection or being taken serious by behaving strangely? Well, maybe the grandfather paradox does have an impact but only if they really give away that they are here.

4. At the same time, if they want to avoid detection, why are there still so many credible reports from all over the place of so many different kind of craft? I guess, once you figure out how space-time can be folded, tunneled, crumpled or whatever (without too great of an energy cost), every new generation of scientists, students, even tourists and kids would want to go on an ancient history safari, see the dinosaurs, the neanderthals or those funny guys at the beginning of the 21st century who thought they had figured it all out (myself included)

5. Historical UFOs. Yes, maybe reports throughout the centuries, from roman times etc, or even pictograms in cave paintings that look like they might be UFOs or little greys, mean that "they" have come from deep space millennia ago. But time travel (IMO) is obviously a possibility here.

Polter, gotta quickly butt in and bring up a pet gripe. The White House Lawn thing is kind of understandable being that the US is the sole real world superpower, no question. But I think any intelligent species who sees the crap that can come out of a politician's mouth would maybe think it should be the absolute last place on earth to land.

Perhaps they rather meet people who are not at the top of the tree when it comes to using the earth's resources. I gotta quickly say to our American friends, you could all have cars to drive the same but there is zero need for 5litre trucks that dont even get used as trucks and are not even efficient engines. Anything in most of the rest of the world with an engine that size is a bloody airplane!
I know people use the white house lawn thing just as a quick way to say 'why don't they just show themselves' so maybe that is what you were saying.

 

[Polterwurst]

Exactly. I was just quoting the typical question for that. The lawn might be anywhere important (in front of the UN building for example).

 

[mike]

I disagree with somethings in that article Mike.
However I have seen and taped what these things can do.
I've witnessed with others how they can pass from one dimension into our dimension.
When I was abducted in 1991 that was how they moved me from my home to a park three blocks away where their craft was waiting.
They took me into what I can only describe as a wall of darkness.
In the mass abduction in the Bronx circa 1957-58 I was told by one of the entities that they sometimes used dimensions to travel.
Excerpted from The Long Dream.

I asked why their ship looked bigger inside than outside and was told that we were not actually in the ship but a kind of a pocket they had generated that was why the light behaved as it did.
I was told they did not always use craft but sometimes used these pockets.
I guess now it was because of the volume of people they were working with at that time they had landed the craft, but I didn't think to ask that, but did realize that was what the Saurian had meant the night before about shifting into another dimension that we could not see them but they could see us.

To read the full article see​

The Long Dream​

But to go off topic for a moment here I must ask, Why does everyone here only speak of the Greys?
Isn't it known that there are more than one species of these so called "Greys" visiting this world, and that they sometimes work with entirely different species?

Yeah, but my problem posey is a word should mean something, otherwise we may as well use words like magic, he disappeared and went into a magic place....... It doesnt say anything.
What do you mean when you say another dimension, where is it, what is it.
The word itself doesnt tell me anything useful

The language, the jargon has to describe the reality, otherwise its just a filler word like magic
Or an explanation like god made it.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Of note is the 6:00 mark in this one in regards to time travel..............

I'm a little amused by those clips. I'm as big a Michio Kaku fan as anyone but I've noticed that the more and more his celebrity grows the more speculative his comments become. I'm no physics expert but even I know that the issue of time travel into the past remains an open question. It's not a done deal like he makes out in those videos, not even theoretically. There's still a lot of debate among scientists regarding it. Some of them think it's impossible, that the universe forbids it outright. And some others are more upbeat. But there has been no unassailable theory that would make it an unquestionable possibility yet.

 

[boomerang]

I've noticed that the more and more his celebrity grows the more speculative his comments become..

True--but maybe not a bad thing. Kaku manages to push the public imagination without violating the spirit of real science. At least, I think so.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I notice with Kaku that he is an unashamed fence-sitter when it comes to UFOs!
I would put money on him thinking there is a true phenomena but because of his position he won't speak out as brave people like Dr MacDonald did.

Let me quickly quote Kaku from the front cover of Leslie Kean's book......

"A treasure trove of insightful and eye-opening information."

Oh really? It is either absolute nonsense or it is absolutely not nonsense. Michio, where dou art thou standeth on the flying chariot quandary? lol (I actually really dig the guy, having studied physics myself - we need someone of his calibre to at least legitimise the field for other scientists to become involved in).

 

[Polterwurst]

Michio, where dou art thou standeth on the flying chariot quandary? lol (I actually really dig the guy, having studied physics myself - we need someone of his calibre to at least legitimise the field for other scientists to become involved in).

I for one was more than baffled when he spoke put for the book at all. It's more than I'd ask from any scientist, poular or otherwise. There is just too much reputation to lose. In my country he has surely been dismissed as a kook or a scifi promoting pseudo scientist, long before his review in favour of the book by manistream scientists, I'm afraid. And you'll wait for an official statement on the book or the press conferences or COMETA in vain. They regard these things as anomalies and thus as non-existant.

But to come back to time-travel. Why do you think that theory is rather unpopular even among people who acknowledge unexplained UFOs? At least that's how it seems to me.

EDIT: changed "loose" to "lose" in the first paragraph.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Firstly Polter, I would never presume to correct anyone's written English but because as a non-native your's is of such a high standard, just in case it's not a typo - one would 'lose' a reputation whereas a screw can be 'loose' as opposed to 'tight'. Really sorry if it's a typo but I kinda guess you prefer to be exact?

I have wondered about the time travel theory too and there may be two distinct 'camps' of opposition to it. One camp are the people who's argument against any time travel is that if there were such a thing, why don't we have tourists from other times, 'chrono-tourists' if you like?
This has some validity but if I may speak as a fan of Star Trek (not a 'Trekky' though), there may be some rule about non-interference and also people advanced enough to cheat time could no doubt hide themselves either in plain sight or actually cloaked.
Another camp opposed to time travel are those who like debunkers I feel are so strongly attached to their world view not being changed radically, for them, time travel is in the same realm as alien visitors, i.e ridiculous. The first camp just argue more against lack of actual proof right now, not the possibility of it happening ever.

Back to Michio - I was and I was not surprised that he quoted for the book's release. He can be found speaking on TV a lot about quite radical scientific concepts that 2 decades ago would have seemed too 'out there'.
In fact, I think that if there ever were an actual gradual acclimatisation process to the reality of ET being here, we would need prominent scientists like Kaku to come forward with successively strong ideas about the probability of advanced intelligences inhabiting our Galaxy. We must remember that science as a whole is really only recently coming on board with the definite view that there must be ET life. We are watching this acceptance as it happens and I believe Kaku is the vanguard of this approach.
I would be willing to bet (and I hate gambling) that Kaku would have been a Dr MacDonald type had he been prominent 40 years ago, when the US hadn't yet succeeded in completely ridiculing the whole UFO field.

Kaku probably feels he has a role in bringing acceptance but a forthright backing of the whole UFO reality may be a step to far at this juncture. I hate the fact that truth may be being withheld from us because most of the world is too stupid to handle it, or too religious to accept they are wrong etc.
I don't have a problem with anyone's level of intelligence - we are what we are but religion and having an open mind is a choice. Most people choose not to be open minded and I hate the air they breathe because the rest of us have to wait for them to 'be able to handle it'.

In any other realm of science, we could not care less whether the public at large can understand the concepts - the ET reality question is one area in which that is not the case. I must commend Leslie Kean once again for setting the scene of how all this got into the realm of the silly instead of the realm of hard science. I like Leslie as a guest on the show but now I've read her book, my admiration for her has increased even more. She is what the field needs - someone who checks her facts and is not calling for any 'disclosure' which would entail agencies and governments admitting lying. She is calling for a fresh scientific look at a genuine mystery without putting any names on what may be causing what is to me a most obvious scientific conundrum (great word).