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UFOs, Language and Occam's Razor

Free episodes:

Michael Allen

Paranormal Adept
UFOs, Language and Occam's Razor

1.1 Really Verbose Prologue...
I expected to begin the topic with a simple examination and revision of the ufology language. –-reworking the terms “alien,” “extraterrestrial,” “unidentified flying object,” as well as the acronyms “ETBE," “ETV,” “UFO” or “IFO.” However, my revision led to a new direction concerning the vital metaphysical underpinnings in scientific thinking. I realized, through this effort, that many of the sightings continuing throughout the 20th century fell under the label of "pseudo-science" not because of the (assumed) “falsehood” of the thousands of reports worldwide, but on account of an ontological and metaphysical bankruptcy in science and science culture. I speculated that the human language, during the 19th and 18th century, was gradually re-invented for fast technological advance, but that the effect of such a restructuring would squander away the human element into a “matrix” of mechanical reasoning. My original suspicions were felt as early as 1999 while reading Korzybski's Science and Sanity, and found that human language simply wasn't fit to bring us through the immense changes brought about by late 19th and 20th century technological advances. Without the revision of language, as Korzybski predicted, humanity would stand at the verge of total annihilation.

In defense against this possible catastrophe, the language used for universal identification of all phenomena and elite “eventually identifiable” concrete particulars, and the associated category games, equivocations and Aristotelian platitudes, will be laid to rest and a new foundation emerge from the ashes of this controversial debate. In addition, I will address the lingual (and meta-lingual) material support of of encyclopædic content, i.e. what is presented to the public as the contemporary “neutral point of view.[NPOV]” In doing so, I will demand additional qualifiers and indices concerning terms of identification, such as we see applied to the unexplained objects(missing index: according to who?) in the sky. Under this counter-scheme, since we are no longer able to find a proper reference for NPOV, we will use “UFO” as a temporal adjective applied to an object. “Identified” or “unidentified” begs the question as to what authority (and under what pretense) uses these adjectives. A motion to divide the petitio principi “UFO" into “unidentified” and “object” will be made, thus identifying the agents who resist interpretations of events subversive to their policies.

The principle of economy[Occam's Razor] is not a good reason for neglecting the existence of something if it actually exists.–-Stephen Pepper

The ontology framework assumed in UFO sightings–-by officialdom–-is a basis for the reduction of the singular facts of a sighting to the library of events within the witness' background. Whether the reports issue from trained military personnel and analysts or laymen, the “UFO" skeptics extend this dogmatic belief to universal reality. For when the novelty of the event passes beyond the library of events and impressions catalogued by the experiencer, their report's final relation to the skeptic's ontology is the universal qualifier, “subjective hysterical witness," who cannot–-and shall not–-believe that the object seen is “identified" or even “identifiable" outside the terms of the witness' or skeptic's experiential background. Hence the term “UFO” or “UFOB” is a categorical restriction of phenomena to the preemptive categories asserted by the skeptics; which is a reduction of all perceived events to what must be experientially “logical” within the library of the individual witness or the canonical libraries of the skeptic. Later we will see how this idea of “necessity” in the skeptic's ontological categories provide a specious counterfeit of “Occam's Razor.”

When a witness of an extraordinary “UFO event" describes their moment of experience, the language used often fails (esp. for first timers) to describe the event in its totality. This is axiomatic and is assumed by UFO “believers” and skeptics alike. Furthermore, the explanation rendered by the skeptic (I will adopt the usage of Stanton Friedman's "negativist" term briefly--as it fits well within a descriptive account of human ontological failure) places the witness' familiarity of the situation well below what is psychologically appropriate with respect to the the assumed regularities of alternative explanations–-i.e. weather balloons, comets, meteors, planets and the like. Given the nature of such common events as accepted “official” hypotheses of observed UFO phenomena, the likelihood that psychologists might also diagnose the first-hand observer as “hysterical,” or even delusional, is increased in turn; this is a conclusion built in to the library of observable phenomena put in place by the negativists as the de facto source for all UFO related events. And the increasing frequency of implementing the hysteria “garbage pail” diagnosis stems from the obvious witness' “overreaction” to events subtitled as “normal phenomena” by the skeptic. Many such examples, included within the canon of debunkery, as “war nerves,” “psychological contagions,” and “stress,” are employed to provide additional support for hysteria despite the stark result brought about in vacuo from the forced implementation of this inferior negativist ontology. But to illustrate the inferiority of this ontology, we must examine the elements of identification employed by the negativist.


Naturally, with these negativist's “critical examination” of the testimony–-a second hand abstraction–-the already depressed language of the witness is further reduced ( i.e. intentionally or not) to match the immense library of ordinary atmospheric and celestial phenomena. This methodology works quite well for isolated cases, but when the larger and larger populations begin to witness the same events, the less likely such events can fall into the dogmatic category of misidentified ordinary flying objects . However the skeptic may fume concerning the possibility of misidentification , probable object misidentification does not mean that the skeptic can preempt the facts of the witness' testimony with their own identification scheme.

So the first-order abstractions (i.e. event-labels, analogies, etc.) maintained by the witness of these events are funneled into the ontology assumed by the UFO skeptic, who will only certify language forms appropriate to their interpretation of Occam's razor. Our use of “interpretation” is deliberate, and should highlight the important difference in the criterion of “simplicity” as asserted by William of Ockham and the criterion of multiplicity assumed by the skeptics.
Skepticism does not imply preemptive identification of FOBjs no matter the consequences of maintaining a neutral position on the subject. However that is precisely what you see within the annals of mid-20th century FObj skepticism: Multiplicative alternative hypotheses, with all their compound effects–-two at a time, three at a time, etc.–-are employed frequently by the “debunkers” under the notion that if one “throws enough mud at a wall, the some of it must stick.” So while the skeptics would like to continue their preaching of “simplicity” and “Occam's" razor,” their doctrine concerning “UFO” witness reports is one of incredible and unnecessary complexity .

I must add an aside here *this is not a quote* --> a similar multiplicity is now in fashion--whereby many individuals take a leap over a physical hypothesis and reach for more esoterically complex hypotheses such as time travel, interdimensional beings, magic etc. It is even more ironic that those who leap over the physical (standard ETH) hypothesis, do so under the guise of OR.

Such psychological skepticism easily vacillates from one known explanation (i.e. an Echo I or II satellite) to another (a planet such as Venus) or even to the internal phenomenon of “mass hysteria” as the “final explanation.” Multiplicities are quite evident in famous cases like the Portage County Ohio incident on April 17, 1966, when Sheriff Deputies Dale Spaur, and Wilbur Neff witnessed a large disc-shaped craft–-40ft in diameter–-hovering “150 feet” over their patrol car, four miles east of Rudolph. According to the paid negativists, any hypothesis concerning the facts reported by the witnesses is acceptable as long as the actual informational content of the sighting is obscured by an ordinary object or event–-i.e. Echo I,II satellite, weather balloon, or the planet Venus. At this point, one should question the necessity of dismissing the qualitative and quantitative unity and singularity of facts and particulars referenced by a particular observer–-i.e. a 40ft diameter object hovering 150ft over a patrol car in Portage County, Ohio–-substituting, instead, the doctrinal canon of multiplicity: i.e. that of ordinary phenomena–-satellites, planets, weather balloons, etc. How this particular method earns the endorsement of “principle of economy” is anyone's guess.

[T]he ultimate verification of physicalist hypotheses in the experiments and observations of physical scientists have to be made in felt qualitative terms. There was an early formulation of the physicalist program which maintained that meaningful statements must always find their verification in sense data sentences–-'protocol sentences', as they were sometimes called. This was an unnecessarily restrictive notion of meaningfulness. But it did recognize the important point we are now stressing, that not only do physical properties owe their origin to the existence of felt qualities, but also physical statements owe their terminal confirmation to felt qualities. Both the beginning and the end of scientific procedure rests upon observations of felt qualities. At the very least there is a pointer reading of a black pointer on a white ground marked with calibrated black lines. Even when these measurements are mechanically registered on a smoked drum or photographic plate, there is still the qualitative human observation at the end of it.

Pepper, Stephen C. Concept and Quality: A World Hypothesis. from “The Paul Carus Lectures,” Series 13, 1961. ed. Eugene Freeman. (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court, 1967)


The skeptics have (innocently or otherwise) relied–-ironically–-upon the maxim pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate; “Plurality should not be posited without necessity”(William of Ockham, b.1285 A.C.E.). In designing a language to “fit the facts” appropriate to the known entities within the phenomenal canon acceptable to the skeptics, a post facto multiplication of entities as a field of possible explanation(s) overshadow the singular fact behind the extraordinary event seen by these observers of phenomena. There is no ontological difference between the creation of new hypothetical entities to explain a phenomenal event and the obstinate insertion of an entire canon of known phenomena as the most “plausible explanation(s)” of the event. This methodology entails a grossly mismatched application of an entire field of the “ordinary” juxtaposed against the singular quantitative and qualitative description of the event by the first-hand observer.
 
The skeptics have (innocently or otherwise) relied–-ironically–-upon the maxim pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate; “Plurality should not be posited without necessity”(William of Ockham, b.1285 A.C.E.). In designing a language to “fit the facts” appropriate to the known entities within the phenomenal canon acceptable to the skeptics, a post facto multiplication of entities as a field of possible explanation(s) overshadow the singular fact behind the extraordinary event seen by these observers of phenomena. There is no ontological difference between the creation of new hypothetical entities to explain a phenomenal event and the obstinate insertion of an entire canon of known phenomena as the most “plausible explanation(s)” of the event. This methodology entails a grossly mismatched application of an entire field of the “ordinary” juxtaposed against the singular quantitative and qualitative description of the event by the first-hand observer.

This reminds me of what John E. Mack amusingly calls the "anything-but" syndrome. Quite glad to see it expressed that way because I'm often confronted to this when I talk about some of my experiences.
 
It's been quite some time since I read through John Mack's "Passport to the Cosmos" where he discussed part of this topic at length. You see the "anything-but" syndrome in other fields. For instance, regardless what one might think of anthropogenic global warming (AGW), it is very instructive to note how deniers of such are willing to obfuscate real scientific consensus under a blanket of ridicule, doubt and fear.

Also, compare how proprietary software companies spread fear, uncertainty and doubt through the tech media regarding their open source alternatives.
While it may be true that some of the UFO phenomenon are beyond the human cognitive domain, that does not preclude the part that lies within easily identifiable under the normal extra-terrestrial hypothesis.

I think some have escalated the hypothesis beyond ETH due to the perceived paucity of the former explanation. Indeed, we go through this

(1) Is it a star...? No
(2) A bug...? No
(3) A spot on my eye... No...
(4) A bird?... No
(5) A meteorite? ...No

Etc....

Each time we escalate our hypothesis we do as a result of the inadequacy of the former.

A Menzelian skeptic will have a depressive effect on the hypothesis escalation
But there's the inverse-Menzelian...who has and expansive (or rather inflationary) response and dogmatically pushes the hypothesis beyond the facts.

Strangely enough, Vallee basically dispensed with ETH because it didn't account for "all the data." The problem of course was his criterion\scope for data acceptance. If one were to remove all filters from the human visceral phenomenology stream, certainly no one hypothesis would account for all things considered "paranormal." Vallee may have been on the right track about one of the signal streams of human existence, consciousness and phenomenology--but perhaps his high-pass filter allowed to many different and unrelated streams to enter into the scope. So if one takes that position (as Vallee apparently does), then the trivial paucity of ETH follows.

Expanding the scope of the inquiry unnecessarily may lead one to covet William of Okham's sledgehammer.
 
As a skeptic, I find the points you bring up quite interesting. My take on it is that if someone asks me what I think about an object seen in the sky, or anything paranormal, I will attempt to explain it through "normal" means i.e. not paranormal. Am I right? Who knows, but if you ask my opinion, that's what I'll try to do.
Over the years, my views have shifted significantly. I used to listen to this interesting show on a local news station about the paranormal, and I was a true believer (probably 10 years ago). After that, the show was cancelled and they started airing Coast to Coast - and I though that was interesting too (yes, I know....). Anyway, all the while, I was a big fan of Carl Sagan, mostly because of Cosmos. The I read "A Demon Haunted World" and that changed my thoughts on the paranormal. I still thought there was something to it, but I was more skeptical.
A few years ago I started listening to the Paracast, and that made me (surprisingly) even more skeptical. In the last year I've become a big fan of Richard Dawkins, and his Foundation has made me embrace science completely. His thoughts on the paranormal are quite interesting, and you should see the video of him and Randi I've posted below. That's how I think - I won't be arrogant and say I'm 100% right, but I think it's a good philosophy.
All this to say that my current mind set is that of a skeptic that some people on this forum don't like (a la Shermer and Randi). One may ask what the hell I'm doing here, and as I've said before, I prefer this forum to skeptical ones (and especially paranormal ones) because I'm exposed to more varied ideas.
Another interesting stat - I listen to one paranormal podcast and at least 6 or 7 skeptical ones. I still find the topic absolutely fascinating though.

I've rambled on long enough and it's getting late.

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I would agree that the first step is to determine collectively that their is a phenomenon and then make a planm on how to study it. Where I differ greatly in this is that I think there already exists a body of evidence to suggest that there is indeed something to study. Be that physical, meteorological, psychological, astronomical, or even extraterrestrial it can not be denied that something worth study exists.
 
As a skeptic, I find the points you bring up quite interesting. My take on it is that if someone asks me what I think about an object seen in the sky, or anything paranormal, I will attempt to explain it through "normal" means i.e. not paranormal. Am I right? Who knows, but if you ask my opinion, that's what I'll try to do.
Over the years, my views have shifted significantly. I used to listen to this interesting show on a local news station about the paranormal, and I was a true believer (probably 10 years ago). After that, the show was cancelled and they started airing Coast to Coast - and I though that was interesting too (yes, I know....). Anyway, all the while, I was a big fan of Carl Sagan, mostly because of Cosmos. The I read "A Demon Haunted World" and that changed my thoughts on the paranormal. I still thought there was something to it, but I was more skeptical.
A few years ago I started listening to the Paracast, and that made me (surprisingly) even more skeptical. In the last year I've become a big fan of Richard Dawkins, and his Foundation has made me embrace science completely. His thoughts on the paranormal are quite interesting, and you should see the video of him and Randi I've posted below. That's how I think - I won't be arrogant and say I'm 100% right, but I think it's a good philosophy.
All this to say that my current mind set is that of a skeptic that some people on this forum don't like (a la Shermer and Randi). One may ask what the hell I'm doing here, and as I've said before, I prefer this forum to skeptical ones (and especially paranormal ones) because I'm exposed to more varied ideas.
Another interesting stat - I listen to one paranormal podcast and at least 6 or 7 skeptical ones. I still find the topic absolutely fascinating though.

I've rambled on long enough and it's getting late.

I probably should have put quotes around the word "skeptic" in my original post as I am not trying to imply anything negative about skepticism--in fact, my attitude in general is to be skeptical of the skeptics. Thanks for pointing this out.

As for the paranormal vs. normal distinction--I assert there is no ontological difference. There are simply things that are understood/explained or lie within the human cognitive domain, and things that are not. Certainly a world of "just normal" (or just _____) is simpler than a bifurcated universe of "para-normal" vs "normal."

Understand that these tags applied to human perception are not really dualistic concerning the "objective" nature of the existing phenomenon.

I am an avid reader\listener of Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan -- however that does not mean I hold to their respective claims\positions. I am also a "fan" of Daniel Dennett (Daniel C. Dennett's Home Page)

However, I cannot say that I spend too much time listening or reading Randi or Shermer.
 
Doesn't it all boil down to data? How much data do we have? We have a great deal of reliable data that says people throughout history have observed aerial phenomena that cannot be positively identified as any known phenomena. In modern times we have radar, video, and multiple witness accounts which strongly suggest that aerial phenomena is still being observed which do not fit any known category of natural or man-made phenomena.

Presently I do not think we (the general public) have enough data to determine the true nature or origin of these phenomena that do not fall into those known categories. However, it doesn't make any sense to to create "new hypothetical entities to explain a phenomenal event" until you have eliminated the "entire canon of known phenomena as the most “plausible explanation(s)." To rely on the imagination to produce "new causes" or the interpretation of the observer (who may not have enough data on known phenomena) of his perceptions allows for a great deal of wasted time and effort. It is a difficult problem to be sure. The general public (this includes most scientists and scientific institutions as well) may very well never be exposed to enough data to make reliable conclusions about UFO, UAPs, NPOVs or whatever label you want to put on it. I think if this were going to happen it already would have.

There does seem to be a concentrated effort since the late 40s to color the perception of the general public to either dismiss UAPs as natural phenomena or attribute them to extra-terrestrial sources. Over recent months I have begun to think that all we "think we know" about the E.T. origin of UAPs has been a carefully orchestrated counterintelligence effort. While I find the E.T. hypothesis a reasonable one to consider, the parade of known hoaxes and disinformation aimed at making it "popular" or "more plausible" than other alternatives is long and well documented. Why would that be so? A magician employs misdirection so that you will not see what he is actually doing. He relies on your imagination to supply the "magic" while he manipulates your perception. I strongly suspect this is the case with the UFO phenomena.

Perhaps I have misconstrued your argument/discussion. If so, I apologize.

Rick
 
Doesn't it all boil down to data? How much data do we have? We have a great deal of reliable data that says people throughout history have observed aerial phenomena that cannot be positively identified as any known phenomena. In modern times we have radar, video, and multiple witness accounts which strongly suggest that aerial phenomena is still being observed which do not fit any known category of natural or man-made phenomena.

Presently I do not think we (the general public) have enough data to determine the true nature or origin of these phenomena that do not fall into those known categories. However, it doesn't make any sense to to create "new hypothetical entities to explain a phenomenal event" until you have eliminated the "entire canon of known phenomena as the most “plausible explanation(s)." To rely on the imagination to produce "new causes" or the interpretation of the observer (who may not have enough data on known phenomena) of his perceptions allows for a great deal of wasted time and effort. It is a difficult problem to be sure. The general public (this includes most scientists and scientific institutions as well) may very well never be exposed to enough data to make reliable conclusions about UFO, UAPs, NPOVs or whatever label you want to put on it. I think if this were going to happen it already would have.

There does seem to be a concentrated effort since the late 40s to color the perception of the general public to either dismiss UAPs as natural phenomena or attribute them to extra-terrestrial sources. Over recent months I have begun to think that all we "think we know" about the E.T. origin of UAPs has been a carefully orchestrated counterintelligence effort. While I find the E.T. hypothesis a reasonable one to consider, the parade of known hoaxes and disinformation aimed at making it "popular" or "more plausible" than other alternatives is long and well documented. Why would that be so? A magician employs misdirection so that you will not see what he is actually doing. He relies on your imagination to supply the "magic" while he manipulates your perception. I strongly suspect this is the case with the UFO phenomena.

Perhaps I have misconstrued your argument/discussion. If so, I apologize.

Rick
I agree completely with what you have written here. Just playing Devil's Advocate with a well known counter to this I could say that the effort to popularize the ETH exists to lessen the culture shock when the cat is out of the bag. Of course that would imply a world wide cabal secretly orchestrating events in the backdrop of at least more contemporary history.

Or you can consider this an expression of what our societal collective sub-consciousness deems as the most plausible explanation for the phenomenon and without any real direction from enlightened/informed individuals or groups this is simply an unspoken and unlearned solution to the problem. It is hard for me to express exactly what my thoughts on this are. I will need to think about it a bit longer. Its very interesting though.
 
Doesn't it all boil down to data? How much data do we have? We have a great deal of reliable data that says people throughout history have observed aerial phenomena that cannot be positively identified as any known phenomena. In modern times we have radar, video, and multiple witness accounts which strongly suggest that aerial phenomena is still being observed which do not fit any known category of natural or man-made phenomena.

Well, let me first just say that "boiling it down to data" is overstating (data always requires an interpreter and framework for interpretation) ...but I get the gist of your point.

Right but the reliable data proving (in all probability) or showing the temporal state of "unidentified" is not an assertion of the reality of the object. Just because something doesn't (at a specified time index) doesn't fit in the known categories doesn't imply the phenomenon is incorrigible to categorization.

Presently I do not think we (the general public) have enough data to determine the true nature or origin of these phenomena that do not fall into those known categories. However, it doesn't make any sense to to create "new hypothetical entities to explain a phenomenal event" until you have eliminated the "entire canon of known phenomena as the most "plausible explanation(s)." To rely on the imagination to produce "new causes" or the interpretation of the observer (who may not have enough data on known phenomena) of his perceptions allows for a great deal of wasted time and effort. It is a difficult problem to be sure. The general public (this includes most scientists and scientific institutions as well) may very well never be exposed to enough data to make reliable conclusions about UFO, UAPs, NPOVs or whatever label you want to put on it. I think if this were going to happen it already would have.

It is an interesting notion to determine the criterion for "sufficient data" to establish this or that hypothesis. Perhaps we should simply start with the data and enumerate a corpus of hypotheses and then assign a weight of plausibility (subjective as it might be) to each one--keeping in mind that the "neutral point of view [NPOV]" in this case is not the dogmatic assertion of the uncategorizeability of the object, but of the methodical and thorough examination of all the related events/data that fit into a given knowledge framework (theory).
This is not--as some would say--a researcher taking in by bias, but the natural order of the mind that allow a body of non-contradicting statements about the nature of things to cohere
Searching for data from a coherence perspective is not unlike searching for the full body of an elephant when one has only grasped the tail (and smell--but no sight) of the elephant.



There does seem to be a concentrated effort since the late 40s to color the perception of the general public to either dismiss UAPs as natural phenomena or attribute them to extra-terrestrial sources.

Firstly, even if that is true, this effort might be construed as a way to spoil the thesis altogether---if this is indeed a carefully orchestrated counterintelligence effort, it certainly makes the Roberson Panel and subsequent efforts to close the lid a testimony to the failures of the initial project (i.e. to cover up something else--sleight of hand). If that was the case, borrowing what Knapp said in his recent interview on the Paracast, they should have their "asses spanked" for creating a situation that might've caused mass hysteria and panic and virtually close down the entire communication grid during the height of the Cold War. So I am not sure this is the best explanation for the continued popularization of ETH. More likely, ETH is popular because it simply makes the most sense. Most scientists in this field have indeed held (or in the case of Vallee--once held) to the most defensible hypothesis-->ETH.



Over recent months I have begun to think that all we "think we know" about the E.T. origin of UAPs has been a carefully orchestrated counterintelligence effort. While I find the E.T. hypothesis a reasonable one to consider, the parade of known hoaxes and disinformation aimed at making it "popular" or "more plausible" than other alternatives is long and well documented. Why would that be so? A magician employs misdirection so that you will not see what he is actually doing. He relies on your imagination to supply the "magic" while he manipulates your perception. I strongly suspect this is the case with the UFO phenomena.

Perhaps I have misconstrued your argument/discussion. If so, I apologize.

Rick

I think the parade of hoaxes more plausibly show a counterintelligence effort to disqualify ETH, rather than sustain its popularization in serious circles.
Also--a clarification--when I talk about "magic," I mean occult mysticism, hermeticism, ceremonialism and such...not illusion.
 
" Unique intelligences that are (non human) and Craft are often seen and reported as having come through a type of opening above Ground and below Ground. These Openings appear suddenly within Remote areas in the Countryside, or just outside some of the Major Cities, especially with the United States. Portal openings have been seen in areas of Heavy forestation, or in places that are very mountainous and often people refer to these areas as Window areas.
Now if this is actually occurring, then of course, Counter-intelligences agencies of whatever description, known or unknown, and who have over the years gained a greater knowledge on what is happening here
.Then of course they would spread-disinformation, and encourage certain Information to get out the public. So if the answer is UFOs are coming through these openings at will on the planet, and they are not arriving from other planets by way of space. Then as a race us Humans are more at risk of harm, if that was their intention? I guess Philip Imbrogno story about a Worldwide agency of agents trying to capture these entities would make sense to me. If the origin of UFOs is not ETH but a Portal slash other world on the otherside were these entities and ships arrive from?
 
I wouldn't discount the "stargate" notion, however the argument can be turned against itself--what if the non-human intelligences are trying to control the human perception? I.e. what if these beings are the "magician" trying to cover their own tracks? If we assume Stanton Friedman is correct and these beings are actual beings from another star system in our local neighborhood, then it might very well be in their best interest (if they deemed us dangerous) to make us think they are from underground or from another dimension. Certainly Vallee might agree with the trickster thesis element of this explanation (but not the conventional interstellar travel component). Anything to set humanity in the wrong direction I suppose--but we can go on and on with these various flights of fancy.

I disagree with Davids equivocation of interstellar space travel and interdimensional manipulation.

Analogy: "well, if these people can float in ships across the water, then they most certainly have the means to travel through the core of the planet or even through the clouds....as each is merely an example of mechanical manipulation of an enclosed vessel through a matrix or substratum" .

Or something of the sort...
 
I wouldn't discount the "stargate" notion, however the argument can be turned against itself--what if the non-human intelligences are trying to control the human perception? I.e. what if these beings are the "magician" trying to cover their own tracks?

To me this is the central problem. Humanity as a species has an immense ego and the concept of a race (or races) of beings (or whatever) not merely more intelligent than ourselves but vastly so, to the point where they can manipulate our very perceptions with ease, is difficult for many to get their heads around (not to mention thoroughly unnerving). I think this is probably where the assumptions of the skeptics ("negativisits" if you prefer) fall down hardest as they seem to operate in a "if they can do it, we can do it" mindest (or perhaps "if we can't do it, neither can they" would be more accurate). The sheer scale of the inferiority we might be dealing with here eludes them completely.
 
I wouldn't discount the "stargate" notion, however the argument can be turned against itself--what if the non-human intelligences are trying to control the human perception? I.e. what if these beings are the "magician" trying to cover their own tracks? If we assume Stanton Friedman is correct and these beings are actual beings from another star system in our local neighborhood, then it might very well be in their best interest (if they deemed us dangerous) to make us think they are from underground or from another dimension. Certainly Vallee might agree with the trickster thesis element of this explanation (but not the conventional interstellar travel component). Anything to set humanity in the wrong direction I suppose--but we can go on and on with these various flights of fancy.

I disagree with Davids equivocation of interstellar space travel and interdimensional manipulation.

Analogy: "well, if these people can float in ships across the water, then they most certainly have the means to travel through the core of the planet or even through the clouds....as each is merely an example of mechanical manipulation of an enclosed vessel through a matrix or substratum" .

Or something of the sort...

I have this feeling we are the ones that are confused not the Phenomenon. There is no Magic Tricks or manipulation of our senses by these beings They show up, do their thing and then they leave.This Phenomenon has been coming from the same place or destination, since it first arrived and we are the ones, that are putting labels on it. We are discussing Origins, but maybe only one origin is needed. Like i said we are the ones that are confused. The Phenomenon is just amused watching all these debates going on, and and having great fun with it all. While spoil the Fun of these earthlings and reveal were we are from?
 
I have this feeling we are the ones that are confused not the Phenomenon.

An interesting feeling nevertheless based on the notion that the "Phenomenon" is a unified concrete particular. Again there are many entities in the real world that can

(1) Show up
(2) Do their thing
(3) Leave.

There is no Magic Tricks or manipulation of our senses by these beings They show up, do their thing and then they leave.This Phenomenon has been coming from the same place or destination, since it first arrived and we are the ones, that are putting labels on it. We are discussing Origins, but maybe only one origin is needed. Like i said we are the ones that are confused. The Phenomenon is just amused watching all these debates going on, and and having great fun with it all. While spoil the Fun of these earthlings and reveal were we are from?

That's very much like saying, "hey, that aircraft carrier was fairly amused by that tugboat--I think the tugboat even got scared for a minute." I don't think we should lump everything into an amorphous indivisible mass unity. As unified as an object to our touch may be to our sensory manifold, it is nevertheless a mind boggling tug-o-war between many events and things. A trojan horse doesn't "get angry" and crap out its Greeks "in disgust."

And of course, a scientific hypothesis is more than a mere label. Scientific investigations may lead one to provisionally label artifacts and objects of study, but it is the propositions made that correspond best to the data and facts that should cohere in the investigation, not a list of imaginary ad-hoc conspiracy theories concerning alternate realities, the "matrix" or pan-dimensional "existence."
 
I know this is going to be a bit ... bitchy. But I can't be bothered reading this thread. Why? Because the original poster can't seem to be able spell "Occam's Razor". Come on already. Its not difficult just to do a quick search on the net to find the correct spelling. I find I'm getting less tolerant of people's spelling as I get older, and incorrect spelling makes me less likely to read someones argument/whatever no matter how insightful it is.

I do not mind the odd spelling mistake or grammatical error. I do them all the time. But misspelling the name of a well known idiom/whatever, I'm sorry ... its just bloody stupid.

[And may the brickbats begin :cool::D]
 
You're right of course...I missed a "c"

William of Ockham (also Occam, Hockham, or any of several other spellings, pronounced /ˈɒkəm/) (c. 1288 - c. 1348)

Time to edit...

---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------

Happy now? I couldn't edit and change everything...but a quick edit > reopen > post to crimson editor > replace all on a good regex...and done. The only problem is the title populating into the other comments-->can't really do much about that.
 
I think the parade of hoaxes more plausibly show a counterintelligence effort to disqualify ETH, rather than sustain its popularization in serious circles.

While I understand why you say that I think it could be argued that the serious circles of high dollar, high resources, and high skill are already under regulation and control. I think it could be argued that there is a serious inner circle that already studies and knows the truth (a mercurial thing at best) about the subject. However, the manipulation of the consciousness of society or sub-components of it has other uses and implications. The prevalence of E.T.s, Grays, the MJ-12 myth, Zeta Reticuli, in modern pop culture cannot be ignored or underestimated in it influence on the consciousness of society as a whole. The origins of these things can be largely traced to known hoaxes and counterintelligence campaigns. I think Vallee hinted at this and has expressed concern about the use of UFOs as a mechanism of societal control.
 
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