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Undeclared nation?

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Magic_Juan

Skilled Investigator
Just a thought.

This is in keeping with the theory of "cryptoterrestrials".

What if we currently have an undclared nation (to the general public)on earth, which could explain the UFO technologies that have been witnessed and the underlying basis for the Illuminati / NWO / Ultra-government conspiracy theories.

They could be much older than human civilization and also explain OOP artifacts etc.

They could be hidden in plain sight and have influence over world governments therefore having the cooperation in supressing satelite or flight path observation.

This is by no means and quite obviously not a completely fleshed out theory - just something to start a conversation.<WBR>
 
how do you mean? like a group similar enough in appearance to ours that they pass unnoticed amongst us?
would they be human? or perhaps a side branch of homo sapiens? or another species altogether?

a very old family or clan perhaps, one that has never really fallen upon hard times, and has always remained wealthy throughout whatever ills befall the world?

where would this group be based?
 
Re: Forgotten - Great movie!

Gene: I think so. If it walks like a duck...

AnnetteMarie:
I don't really know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to provide some food for thought.
I am really interested in seeing where others take this.
 
there are a lot of legends out there, I wonder if any of them have the answer, and if we saw it, would we see it for what it is, or just gloss over it as being too improbable to be real...
 
I was thinking that if they were similar enough physically to us, then fossil records etc could be explained as deformities, or mutations and be passed over.

Besides, it is nearly impossible to change the mind of esatblished academia despite even irrefutable evidence . Take the whole Homo Floresiensis ("Flores Man"; Hobbit) debate.

Mentally or Spiritually they could be unrecognisable compaired to our current abilities and capacities.

Maybe it could help explain a lot of non UFO related paranormal events such as shadow people or angelic visitation. Or even people with extrordinary gifts (ie ESP, Clairvoyance, excessivly charismatic etc.) which could be a result of interbreeding (legends of angels seducing humans ie)

Just some more fodder.
 
I was thinking that if they were similar enough physically to us, then fossil records etc could be explained as deformities, or mutations and be passed over.

Besides, it is nearly impossible to change the mind of esatblished academia despite even irrefutable evidence . Take the whole Homo Floresiensis ("Flores Man"; Hobbit) debate.

Mentally or Spiritually they could be unrecognisable compaired to our current abilities and capacities.

Maybe it could help explain a lot of non UFO related paranormal events such as shadow people or angelic visitation. Or even people with extrordinary gifts (ie ESP, Clairvoyance, excessivly charismatic etc.) which could be a result of interbreeding (legends of angels seducing humans ie)

Just some more fodder.
But they would themselves have a history, which we should be able to see.
On interbreeding: since we don't live in the Star Trek universe - if it can interbreed with us, it is us. Still, there are legends.

A question that keeps nagging at me about the whole cryptoterrestrial hypothesis: If they're more advanced than us, why hide? Why would they not have become the more widespread and (to use an ugly word) dominant species (or subspecies)? If they are flesh and blood they will be subject to the same imperatives as all life, so the outcome should've been what you could expect.

Still, it remains an interesting idea. And I have to admit that there is a part of me that wants those known to my forefathers as the Tuatha Dé Danann to be real, even if logic tells me otherwise.

I'll raise you a hypothesis: could these apparent entities be products of the collective subconscious throwing up templates for what it's trying to become? (not a particularly meaningful question I know, but I just got home from work :))
 
Thanks for the reply Kevin.
I chose the word interbreed to make a distinction between an 'us' and 'them' it wasn't meant to be a technical term.

But as far as them remaining hidden - I suppose we'll just have to ask them.
Just kidding.
But seriously, there's the whole 'Ant Farm' notion. Maybe by us not knowing about them it keeps us out of their hair and easier to observe/control us. Gosh I'm starting to sound like a wacko.

I like your question. It brings to mind the notion that the ever increasing networks of computers are like neuronal networks and one day when they are complex enough will sponateously become self-ware. Maybe the collective subconscious can act in the same way.
 
To Take it on a different slant.

I was watching the show Fringe and part of the story line is that some scientists find a way to travel back and forth between our universe and a parallel one.

Well, if civilization in a parallel universe had this ability then whatever it was in their universe which was of great value - for the sake of argument let's say dark matter particles, by having this ability they have just doubled their resource of this commodity. If there is 1 other parallel universe there could also be an infinite number, so using their ability/technology increases this exponetially. So if this civilization is mining other universes for dark matter which could possibly be used for an exotic power source, they could leap-frog from a Type I civilization to a type II or III (according to Michio Kaku's classification system).
 
I guess what bothers me on some level about your last theory is if a civilization is that advanced why is it still trying to gather or take energy sources. Is this the fate of all beings everywhere to use technology or whatever means only to take energy sources from other places??

Maybe I didn't understand the theory entirely. Isn't there a self sufficient species out there anywhere?
 
Hi Ally,
The energy requirement theory isn't mine actually. The classicfication system of Type 0 -III is Michio Kaku's and it outlines the energy needs of a civilization to progress from one type to another. Energy has to come from somewhere as well and it will require fuel of some sort. The more fuel the more energy.
 
Dude, you're describing the story of Iced Earth's "Something Wicked This way Comes" Trilogy.

From Wikipedia

"Part one
Framing Armageddon: Something Wicked Part 1 tells the story of the Setians, who were the original inhabitants of Earth, and are directly descended from the "Great Architect". They are said to have nearly omniscient knowledge. Humans, who originate on a distant planet and have developed space travel, invade Earth in a bid for "ultimate power and ultimate knowledge", killing all but ten thousand Setians.
The remaining ten thousand go into hiding in the mountains in the east. The Setian High Council, which consists of the twelve Elders and the High Priest, make a plan to get revenge on the invading human race. They plan to initiate "The Clouding", which involves brainwashing all the humans and making them forget their origins. Once completed, the Setians will assimilate into the human race and manipulate history, as deemed by the Domino Decree, by creating religions such as Christianity and Islam to divide the humans. Division would then cause man to succumb to worldly intentions and in doing so, bring about conflicts that would only make them weaker. Once human kind is sufficiently divided after ten thousand years, the Setians will await, as the prophecy told millennia ago, the birth of the Antichrist, Set Abominae. It was predicted that Set Abominae would destroy all of the human race and execute the revenge the Setians have long awaited.
Events parallel those in the Bible (particularly the story of the Tower of Babel).
Framing Armageddon tells the story from the prophecy to the events right before the birth of Set Abominae.

[edit] Part two

The album tells the story of the Antichrist, Set Abominae, starting with his birth: on the sixth hour of the sixth day of the sixth month (666). He grows up within the Setian community, known as the Minions of the Watch, who would raise the boy and put him on the path to his destiny. It was with this "undying love" that taught Set about the death of his ancestors and how he is their savior from the invading Humans. While learning the arts of the ancients such as time manipulation and shape shifting, he goes through many trials and tribulations and encounters self-doubt about who he is and whether or not he can actually fulfill the Setian prophecy. In the end, he pulls through and emerges complete and confident about his purpose. Upon passing through the Dimension Gauntlet as his final test, he is crowned as the Astral Beast, whose wrath would be the catalyst to Setian salvation.
Set starts his work with the assassination of Jesus Christ, punishing him for the gift of second sight, and moves on to other great leaders and foreseers throughout history. Over the course of the next two thousand years he crushes kingdoms under their own greed, deceit, and thirst for conquest, controls the weak with divisive tools such as religion, and declares his own godhood by appealing to the lies and self deceit in every human being.
The album ends on an open-ended note, with the song Come What May. As Set observes humanity through the ages, he acknowledges humans as a race with much potential despite its flawed nature. Set makes a requisition for mankind to overcome its imperfections to be thus saved from their destructive fate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_Wicked_Saga

great albums, great story. Here's a taste;

 
Magic juan,
My last post wasn't my most well thought out one. I should know better and not stay on the computer when my sleeping pill is starting to kick in.
 
This kind of scenario is at the top of my Possible Answers List at the moment. I certainly do not have enough evidence to back it up, but it seems likely to me. I suspect there are parallel ‘dimensions’ inhabiting the same space-time. Scientific theory is sniffing around the edges of this with such constructs as ‘Branes’ and I think this will be the next breakthrough in our understanding of reality—similar to the shift from Newtonian physics to relativity and quantum mechanics in the early 20th century. I don’t know how this works, but it MAY have something to do with vibration, frequency, and nutation.

The idea is that there is ‘leakage’ between these dimensions. Some of the leakages are accidental and some are intentional. When you read reports of UFOs flying by airliners at a high rate of speed seemingly oblivious to the plane’s presence, this is an example of accidental leakage. When you read of interactive encounters of the third kind, these may be examples of intentional leakage.

In nearly every contactee-type encounter the message is the same: Get rid of your nukes. Hastings shows a similar message in his work that has nothing to do with contactees at all. Now some of these encounters have become discredited, so perhaps that means they must be discounted as evidence. And clearly, some of these are copies of others. But take this at face value for the moment: Why would they care? It makes no sense at all unless they have a vested interest in keeping this planet stable. A nuclear explosion is a fundamental one in terms of the composition of reality. It’s not like dynamite blowing up; it messes with atomic structure. It may very well be that a nuclear explosion is felt across dimensions and puts these other space-time locations at risk. And THAT is why they don’t want us messing with nukes. It would be interesting to know if Iran and North Korea are experiencing encounters these days, not that either would admit to them.

It may be that such encounters are seen by us to be extra-terrestrial because that is our dominant paradigm and something these creatures would know. I forget the exact quote or who said it, but it goes something like this: “We are encountering a phenomenon that wants us to believe they are from outer space.” Since we are a space-faring species, at least in our own minds, we are much more likely to believe that scenario than fairies, kahunas, or angels.

Two points: One, it is extremely unlikely that we are from some other system ourselves. The fossil record may be sparse in places, but it still exists. There is a clear line as far back as Homo erectus and some pretty serious work further back to Homo hablis. We may certainly have been ‘tweaked’ ala 2001, but we are from here. There is no missing link and there never has been, except in popular culture. That is beyond dispute. Two, it is extremely unlikely that a past civilization on Earth has achieved the level of technical sophistication as our own. There may very well have been civilizations that achieved a Renaissance-type culture in the past (specifically 12,000 years ago, but that is another story), and it is possible other civilization had discovered other sources of power that we do not know about, but it I unlikely there was a planet-wide civilization like ours with the population in the billions. Evidence otherwise is quite anecdotal and inconclusive.

However, it is possible that some of our stories of past civilizations are actually about ones in different dimensions. If this is the case, then someone somewhere found a gateway that allows communication between them. This opens up two possibilities. One is that they can walk among us; the other is that we may walk among them. They may study us, harvest us, or think of us as theirs, but I don’t think they ‘live’ as a civilization among us. We also may have people who know the Truth, or at least a useful part of it, and they’re not talking. In other words, there’s plenty of room for your favorite conspiracy theories here.

The above is purely speculation on my part, of course. It’s a summary of a lifetime of study, but there are lots of those which have resulted in entirely wrong answers. I do think that reality can be found in that general direction. There’s more, but this post that’s probably far enough for now.
 
Schuyler:
I heartily agree with the majority of your post.

The one exception is the assertion that it is unlikely that any past civilization could have reached a level of technology or knowledge beyond what we have achieved at this point. One thing that has been discussed on the show in the past is that there may be a cycle of achievement then destruction that mankind has been going through. There have even been findings I believe in India as well as the middle east where sand and rock had been melted at extremely high temperatures reminiscent of a nuclear blast. There has also been findings which suggest that in the not so distant past (100,000 years or there-about) that there is evidence that the human race had come close to extinction due to a massive die-off.

Sure it is unlikely, but think we should be open to any possibility.
But...

On the other side of the coin. What you said about the interest of the (let's just others) in our nukes strikes a chord. What if they have a vested interest in our nukes because, as has been discussed, a nuclear blast has a multi-dimensional effect or ripple. What if they have seen the results there nuclear or related blasts have had on our side (ie the melted rock and sand above, Tunguska explosion etc.) and therefore are keeping our nukes close in check. This hypothesis would exclude the need for an advanced past civilization on our end (or dimension).

Food for thought.
 
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