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What is real?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Voyager
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Voyager

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Much of what has been put forth in the field of Ufology reads like science fiction. The psychology of the human mind, attempting to interpret phenomena for which no knowledge exists in the collective data base. We don't know what the underlying reality is. What is real?
 
That is true, especially as it relates to evolving technology, and discoveries in science. We don't have enough facts to reach any definite conclusions about UFOs.
 
I think we are slowly, via new scientific knowledge amassing the "language", the "jargon" to be able to describe the reality behind UFO's.
Terms like anti gravity and plasma fields are more useful than chariots of the gods in describing the reality.
Our own technological knowledge needs to evolve to be on a par with the technology behind the enigma, once we have this parity, we will be able to describe and thus understand it
 
To a certain degree that is true, and very insightful. Since our science does not understand what gravity is, we can't determine if it is anti-gravity or they are creating gravity. Scientific instruments could record and measure various physical effects and properties, but may never be able to explain everything about the phenomenon. It would help if science acknowledged the fact that the phenomenon exists. I think the phenomenon will continue to be be a mystery for a very long time. Until they decide to reveal themselves to us, if ever, it will continue to remain a mystery.
 
Yoyager,

You pose a very interesting question. I also post a lot over on the JREF where reality = verifiable scientific evidence and eye witness testimony is not. I counter this by explaining that the stimulus response is a scientific fact based on verifiable physical processes. In the case of vision we see objects because they emit or reflect light and our receptors turn that light into signals that are interpreted by our brains as images. The skeptics argue that humans are fallible and I counter so are machines, but human vision and brain power is amazing, with no machine yet matching its combined power in as wide a variety of circumstances. So what is real? Well I would say that if we see something while unimpaired and fully conscious, it's probably real becuase it is causing the stimulus response. This means that the underlying reality as you put it must intersect ours in at least this one respect ... and therefore probably all the rest as well. Why? Because the nature of light is related to the fundamental physical makeup of our reality at the particle level. So whatever these UFOs are, we should be able to replicate them. It's just a matter of figuring out the principles behind the technology.
 
There are so many different ideas about what the UFO phenomenon represents. So much misinformation and/or disinformation it can be difficult to distinguish what is real from what is not. I have observed the phenomenon, signaled it, more times than I would bother to count. I know it is real, but I don't know what they are or why they are here. They are able to penetrate into our reality, thus far we are unable to penetrate into theirs. Everything is relative. I couldn't imagine attending UFO conferences. People dressed in stuffy suits, self aggrandizing, etc. Blah, not for me!
 
There are so many different ideas about what the UFO phenomenon represents. So much misinformation and/or disinformation it can be difficult to distinguish what is real from what is not. I have observed the phenomenon, signaled it, more times than I would bother to count. I know it is real, but I don't know what they are or why they are here. They are able to penetrate into our reality, thus far we are unable to penetrate into theirs. Everything is relative. I couldn't imagine attending UFO conferences. People dressed in stuffy suits, self aggrandizing, etc. Blah, not for me!

If you are able to signal them perhaps you should try getting a video or something ... maybe Chris from here would be interested in helping. He's got a camera project going that is getting a lot of attention right now, and if you could show on camera that you can summon them up it could make for a very interesting story.
 
I do have some pictures. I don't have a video camera. I don't summon them. What Chris is doing is about Mysterious Valley. I am working on a presentation that will include pictures and graphics. I have an agreement to publish it on another web site. I am involved in this because I enjoy it.
 
It would help if science acknowledged the fact that the phenomenon exists.
This would never happen because UFOs do not exist in any physical sense, if they did we would have clear proof by now.
 
This would never happen because UFOs do not exist in any physical sense, if they did we would have clear proof by now.

By that logic these critters dont exist either until we have proof they do

Taxonomists discover, describe and classify species. Millions of species remain unknown or unidentifiable, inaccessible to science and society.

http://species.asu.edu/Top10

And thats just here on earth, millions of unknown species
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absence_of_evidence#Absence_of_evidence

Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false.

Do you really believe than an unknown, unidentified species of frog in south america does not exist until we see it and thus prove its existance ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/15/ecuador-new-species-discovered

Are you suggesting the glass frog "did not exist" until it was proven to exist ?

The absence of evidence in the case of the glass frog prior to its discovey, was not evidence of its absence, it had been there all along
 
U.F.O's certainly "exist." I've seen a few myself. Now as to them being "space aliens" well, there's the problem. No conclusive evidence one way or the other. That's why I have fun with books and podcast about ancient aliens and biblical angels and demons as u.f.o.'s and aliens. I think some take u.f.o' s a little to seriously but at the same time there are certainly worse hobbies to have. :p
 
I'll let Lennon/McCartney answer that Mike, It's much more fun than Wikipedia!

'There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy."

You see it's easy!
 
I'll let Lennon/McCartney answer that Mike, It's much more fun than Wikipedia!

'There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy."

You see it's easy!

Not sure easy is the word, simple perhaps;)
 
Orthodox science itself has apparently been seeing ghosts at least since the discovery of quantum physics. The virtual reality behavior of ufos certainly hasn't clarified anything.
 
What about this guys:

If our retinas convert incident photons to some (coded somehow) electrical signals which traverse the optic nerve into the brain.....then what? I mean is there one true signal per photon or milisecond, and is that signal then just routed around various parts of the brain until 'consciousness' becomes aware of it? Or is the signal copied somehow, possibly even amplified, and these copies all travel simultaneously to various places, whereupon the collective effect of them all on their respective destinations adds up to whatever is vision with respect to the conscious mind?
Add to this the similar but ultimately very different phenomena that is sound. Sound waves (longitudinal) move the eardrum like a microphone transducer, and again we have some kind of electrical signal that travels to the brain. But does it do this on it's own, or is it copied and these copies need to reach several destinations so the sum total of their effect becomes the experience of 'sound'.
Inside the brain, bearing in mind that electrical signals are electrical signals but there may be a big difference in amplitude, frequency, phase or indeed if the signals are encoded somehow - what is the difference to the brain of signals from the ear, or from the eye?
I assume it comes down to destination but isn't it weird how the end results are totally different. Vision is so different from hearing, although there are many similarites in that within sight or sound you have colours or sound frequencies and all the other details that make up the nuances of these senses.
I have experienced synesthesia to a degree before, I imagine most people, when pushed can allocate a colour that feels right for a certain sound etc I even seemed to go through a stage as an adolescent that was assigning real objects' shapes to certain names! Although this felt at the time there was some rule or sense to this, was that just an illusion because a certain electrical signal was routed to the wrong sense?
If you think of the brain as a hugely complex (big understatement!) analog electrical circuit, then the mushy biological aspect must make it very easy for there to be mistakes and current drops etc that are unintended but surely at the end of the line, the conscious brain only knows the end signal it receives, and transforms it to the relevant sense. It is easy to see how something can be heard wrong or differently than a time before, even if the original incident light or sound was identical to previous examples.
I find it impossible to not start really questioning how subjective reality is and how really, all of us might have vastly different interpretations of the universe around us?
Here is one that sends me mad: what is to say that what I call 'green' is even remotely similar to what you experience for light of that wavelength? Confusion cannot arise for two reasons, first, because we will always see 'our' colour every time we experience that wavelength and also because we will never experience another person's experience of that colour. It may be possible that my 'green' is your 'red' and always has been. Each time you or I see that wavelength, we see our interpretation of it and we are satisfied we are seeing the same colour, even though we are not?
Mind boggling, truly a headf**k!
 
This would never happen because UFOs do not exist in any physical sense, if they did we would have clear proof by now.

If UFOs don't exist in any physical sense, how are they able to leave ground traces, or be detected by radar in close agreement with visual observations?
 
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