Where is the UFO community heading?

[Rick Deckard]

I'm gonna start this thread with a few simple questions and go from there:

What is the point of the UFO community?
What are we trying to achieve?
How will we know when we've achieved it?
What will we do after that?

Opinions, please.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

1. Dunno. Depends on the person I think.

2. Only speaking for myself, understanding and advancing the human experience.

3. There is no dead end to it, so it can never be fully achieved. A milestone would be a dead or alive alien thrown out on display. Or a crash in a big city.

4. After proof? Study and learn from it. What happens next is dependent on what is found out.

 

[David Biedny]

The point is this:

Some of us have had encounters with UFOs, and want to understand what is going on, why these experiences have happened and what they mean. In my own life, I've had more than a few sightings, along with a variety of other paranormal occurances, and have reached a point where I can no longer bury these experiences and ignore them in my day to day existence.

Hence, I'm doing this show with Gene, in order to speak to other folks who also wonder about the meaning of these experiences and episodes.

The only way to gain some insight it to discuss, debate and use some amount of deductive reasoning to arrive at some truth.

I know, a little simplistic, but that's my own approach.

dB

 

[Rick Deckard]

The point is this:

Some of us have had encounters with UFOs, and want to understand what is going on, why these experiences have happened and what they mean. In my own life, I've had more than a few sightings, along with a variety of other paranormal occurances, and have reached a point where I can no longer bury these experiences and ignore them in my day to day existence.

Hence, I'm doing this show with Gene, in order to speak to other folks who also wonder about the meaning of these experiences and episodes.

The only way to gain some insight it to discuss, debate and use some amount of deductive reasoning to arrive at some truth.

I know, a little simplistic, but that's my own approach.

dB

And I appreciate all your efforts - it's a great show

I, on the other hand, have not had any such experiences but I am convinced that 'something is going on' - I have felt that way for a long time but I realise that that conclusion is based solely on second-hand experience. And that's where the problem lies for me - it's not that I wish to have such an experience (because I don't) but I'm at the point now where I don't know what is real and who to believe any more.

I am amazed that after 60 years collecting these reports of such experiences, we haven't yet arrived at a point where we say 'yep, there is enough evidence to prove that some UFOs are craft of a non-terrestrial origin' or something close to that.

I now wonder why that is.

I feel that the 'UFO community' is it's own worst enemy - if every serious researcher came together, compared notes and contributed to a single database of all known cases, I'm pretty sure that a rock-solid case could be made to prove once and for all that the UFO subject requires serious consideration from everyone on this planet. Maybe then, pressure will be brought to bare on those with the answers to let us have 'the truth'.

As an aside, if a 'credible individual' approached you directly, gave you a convincing report of 'the facts' but made it quite clear that you couldn't disclose them to anyone else, could you live with that?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And I appreciate all your efforts - it's a great show

I, on the other hand, have not had any such experiences but I am convinced that 'something is going on' - I have felt that way for a long time but I realise that conclusion is solely based on second-hand experience. And that's where the problem lies for me - it's not that I wish to have such an experience (because I don't) but I'm at the point now where I don't know what is real and who to believe any more.

I am amazed that after 60 years collecting these reports of such experiences, we haven't yet arrived at a point where we say 'yep, there is enough evidence to prove that some UFOs are craft of a non-terrestrial origin' or something close to that.

I now wonder why that is.

I feel that the 'UFO community' is it's own worst enemy - if every serious researcher came together, compared notes and contributed to single database of all known cases, I pretty sure that a rock-solid case could be made prove once and for all that the UFO subject requires serious consideration from everyone on this planet. Maybe then, pressure will be brought to bare on those with the answers to let us have 'the truth'.

As an aside, if a 'credible individual' approached you directly, gave you a convincing report of 'the facts' but made it quite clear that you couldn't disclose them to anyone else, could you live with that?

To be a devil's advocate here: Why would anyone tell you or anyone such a thing to begin with? I do agree, however, that the UFO community, such as it is, is one big mess. We see more and more of that as we wade through the claims, counterclaims, personal attacks and all the rest.

On the other hand, David and I are optimistic enough to think that we can shine the light on a few facts here and there, and maybe help others to do some real research before they give up in frustration.

I think you probably recall our recent interview with Tim Beckley, where his frustration seethed out of every sentence. Do you remember how he said he used his earnings from writing and publishing to do real on-site research. Where did that take him? Well, beyond selling the article to a magazine from time to time, it got him nowhere. No wonder he's jaded. He's not alone, sad to say.

 

[Rick Deckard]

To be a devil's advocate here: Why would anyone tell you or anyone such a thing to begin with?

Well, what I'm getting at there is motive - it seems pretty obvious to me that those who've had an 'experience' have a genuine desire to get to 'the truth' and are sincere in their efforts. Whereas I do question the motives of others in the UFO field of research who have not had such experiences and who seem more interested in the 'next story' rather than getting to 'the truth'.

I think you probably recall our recent interview with Tim Beckley, where his frustration seethed out of every sentence. Do you remember how he said he used his earnings from writing and publishing to do real on-site research. Where did that take him? Well, beyond selling the article to a magazine from time to time, it got him nowhere. No wonder he's jaded. He's not alone, sad to say.

Doesn't that indicate it's time for a different approach?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Well, what I'm getting at there is motive - it seems pretty obvious to me that those who've had an 'experience' have a genuine desire to get to 'the truth' and are sincere in their efforts. Whereas I do question the motives of others in the UFO field of research who have not had such experiences and who seem more interested in the 'next story' rather than getting to 'the truth'.

I worry about some folks who apparently have one or two good experiences, develop a following, and must then manufacture some additional encounters to make their 15 minutes of fame last another 15 minutes or so.

But as far as folks looking for the "next story" are concerned, if it's part of the road to legitimate investigation, that's fine. If it leads them to accept or promote things that just aren't so, that's another problem, and one quite serious, alas.

 

[Rick Deckard]

Does the prospect of ETIs revealing themselves to the world scare you at all? I can't imagine what the world would be like 'post-disclosure'.

How does the saying go "Careful what you wish for - it may just come true..."

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Does the prospect of ETIs revealing themselves to the world scare you at all? I can't imagine what the world would be like 'post-disclosure'.

I really don't think that's going to happen any time soon. I think enough time has passed to make it quite clear the forces behind such things have another agenda.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I really don't think that's going to happen any time soon. I think enough time has passed to make it quite clear the forces behind such things have another agenda.

So, all we have are reports of past (transient) events - the best that the 'UFO community' can do is convince 'everyday folks' that there's more to UFOs than the tabloids view of 'little green men'...

...but I'm pretty sure that 'everyday folks' will continue not to take any notice.

 

[jritzmann]

The problem with every serious researcher getting together and exchanging notes in a community fashion is really simple...they all have different views that they personally believe is correct. Lets not forget the brass ring in all this, and how much everyone wants it.

Therein comes my own opinion on the UFO thing after 20+ years of investigation-there isnt one.

So basically you cannot get everyone to agree to impartiality, and it becomes a battle of beliefs and preconcieved notions...everyone wants to believe theyre right, and everyone else is just off base.

Now add to that, that several researchers would also worry about what data they presented that might conflict with their angle. Others who wont want to submit evidence due to "high strangeness" factors.

It just wont happen.

The best option is what I see happening with like...me and David. I dont agree with everything he thinks about with relation to "UFOs/aliens", but I have respect for him and his opinions...and after all, I cant say he's wrong either. At the same turn, I'm sure he doesnt agree with me all the time.

But the point is we're both after that same answer. We dont accept the information of those who say they've figured it all out, nor what people tell us.

The point is...go find out yourself. Thats the only way to really know, and evaluate that which you collect.
Not enough people do that, and consequently, we've stagnated.

 

[David Biedny]

I suspect that Jeff is exactly right - it's not like we're gonna get the definitive answer to this enigma anytime soon.

It's more of an exercise of getting closer, even if a little bit, to the core of the matter.

In terms of people staking out a position and defending it, the problem is ego, that which seems to drive all human activity, regardless of the category or nature of said activity. I respect Jeff, and that respect has been built on the basis of a handful of conversations and sharing of thoughts. It's truly amazing to realize the results that even moderate cooperation tends to create - Jeff has made me look at this field in ways I never expected, and has definitely added to my own understanding of the little I think I do understand.

We've got to deal with the stagnation, there has to be some way to broaden the discussion, to improve the signal to noise ratio. The answers are too important to ignore. We have to change the tone of the conversation. Personal attacks are easy, I'm certainly guilty of a few. I'm emotional, and when someone accuses me of doing harm, of being destructive, it gives me no pleasure. There are people in this community that seem to thrive on negativity, it's really disturbing, and seems to overshadow any actual interactions involving wisdom or knowledge about the actual topic. I don't want to contribute to the negativity, but how does one avoid getting dirty when swimming in mud?

Perhaps I'll regret these efforts sometime in the future, but how would I feel if I never tried?

 

[Rick Deckard]

The problem with every serious researcher getting together and exchanging notes in a community fashion is really simple...they all have different views that they personally believe is correct.

Well, it's even worse than i thought then...

But the point is we're both after that same answer. We dont accept the information of those who say they've figured it all out, nor what people tell us.

Okay, I hear that. Now I have asked this before and I don't think you can underestimate the significance of this question which is - do you think you'll ever find the answers you're looking for and can you be confident that you'll know when you've found them? The simple answer is that you'll 'just know' when it's right, but isn't there a danger that we are all really looking for something to re-enforce a conclusion that we've already reached? Another possibility is that 'the truth' maybe beyond human comprehension...

The point is...go find out yourself. Thats the only way to really know, and evaluate that which you collect.
Not enough people do that, and consequently, we've stagnated.

Well, the internet has made us all 'arm-chair' researchers hasn't it? I think the reality is that most people (me included) are happy to let others do the 'leg work' while we sit in our comfortable chairs 'consuming the fruit' of someone else's labour. After all, isn't that how we've learned about 'ordinary' stuff all our lives?

The UFO subject is interesting to me, but it only occupies a minor aspect of my day-to-day life - I have no personal 'quest' but I would like some real answers. But, if Roswell was the case that started this whole thing off then they've had 60 years to bury it and perfect new ways of keeping this stuff out of the public domain.

If you guys can soldier on in the face of that then I have to admire your dedication.

 

[CapnG]

Here's a site I check out quite often:

UFO Casebook - UFOs, UFO Sightings - UFO Case files - UFO Photographs

I like it because there's no opinion and no agenda, just reports. If you go through their archives you notice that as time passes, the UFO and contact reports get less and less impressive. Sketches and photos of solid craft with distinguishing marks, lights and colours and thorough descriptions of beings with distinct clothing, physique and activity have gradually give way to fuzzy photos, bad videos of blurry lights and ambiguous descriptions of the ubiquitous grey (although not consistant descriptions, leading many to claim these as seperate species).

So, if the question is "Where is the UFO community heading?" the answer seems to be "Downhill."

Tim Beckley has every right to be jaded and frustrated at the current lack of real research being done but has he (or anyone else) asked the question "IS THERE further research to be done"? What more information can we glean from yet another blurry photo? What new insight will the next carbon-copy adbuction/contact report yeild? Soil samples? Giger counters? Please. Rick's right, the old ways aren't enough anymore, we need a new approach. And if there is NO new approach? Well then we're done.

See, one thing that get's bandied about often yet is almost instantly ignored is the very real (and probable) idea that we don't know much about these things because "they" don't WANT us to know. If you can cross lightyears of space/pass through dimensions/travel through time, I have trouble believing you'd be unable to ensure your annonimity within reasonable bounderies.

As for genuine contact, no I can't see it, we (as a species) would go insane.

 

[Paul Kimball]

"IS THERE further research to be done"?

Of course there is - there are literally thousands upon thousands of USAF reports, for example, that have never been properly examined by anyone, and sit in the archives now, accessible to the public. Researcher Brad Sparks made the point to me that the best UFO case ever may be sitting in those files, much like the Lost Ark at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. A good example of this is the 1953 Kelly Johnson case, which was only discovered by Brad because he spent some time going through some of those files.

That's where people should be looking - good, solid, plain old research, the way it's conducted in other fields, and always has been. Instead, people want to "move forward" without the evidentiary basis to do so, and focus all their attention on the theories. That's a mistake, in my opinion, that ufology made almost from the beginning (and it's gotten worse as time has gone on) in terms of approach and methodology.

Best regards,
Paul

 

[Aaron LeClair]

The subject of ufos sure beats spending my time caring about who wins the superbowl, reading about Britney Spear's divorce, Tom Cruise's marriage, watching Springer, and going to church. I ask what the point is to most people's interest. UFOs should be a given interest of humans. It's our nature to explore, think, create, develop, and interact with life. The more profound the more worthy of effort given to that subject. To not do so is a death.

It be nice to one day turn on the news and see a paranormal segment instead of sports. 1 paranormal channel to every 10 sports ones would also be nice. I don't count on it, but I can dream like many in this field do. Contagious I guess.

 

[CapnG]

A good example of this is the 1953 Kelly Johnson case, which was only discovered by Brad because he spent some time going through some of those files.

A) Hadn't heard of that one, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

B) The Johnson case basically underlines the statements I've already made. While the persons involved are all totally credible and their eye-witness testimony impeccable, it's still a 53 year old case that basically amounts to nothing more than a sighting. Just like a thousand other sightings. It supports nothing, it proves nothing, it means NOTHING. All it does is add another tick in the "they're secret government weapons" catetgory of UFO explanations.

I don't buy into this "Raiders" scenario many of you seem to cling to, that somewhere, in some forgotten place, there lies an absolute explanation, a smoking gun we can point to and cry "A-ha!". Sounds like wishful thinking to me. If I were running a top secret program dedicated to the handling of such information I would make damn sure it was either locked away under armed guard 24/7 forever or destroyed.

 

[jritzmann]

do you think you'll ever find the answers you're looking for and can you be confident that you'll know when you've found them?

No, I dont believe we'll ever know the answer. The shortest explaination for that is the enigma could present itself, and we'd not even know what it was. Or, we'd only be getting what we wanted to see to begin with. You have to be satisfied with finding your own truth, as it were.

Well, the internet has made us all 'arm-chair' researchers hasn't it? I think the reality is that most people (me included) are happy to let others do the 'leg work' while we sit in our comfortable chairs 'consuming the fruit' of someone else's labour. After all, isn't that how we've learned about 'ordinary' stuff all our lives?

Yes, and it's why misconceptions and alien fanboys are rampant. If people *really* want to know, they'll do the legwork and make their own judgements. It's one reason I get so damned frustrated with people, as I've had to make calls, trips, running out to a frantic ufo report in the middle of the night, etc....and people mostly just regurgitate stuff they hear that has no basis in reality. Then you tell them theyre completely off base and get "how do YOU know...you must be an agent!!!!" My reply is usually, "no as**&le, I went there myself, I dont read this stuff in a book."

LOL...I know, harsh. But the bottom line for me is if youre not going to get involved actively, get out of the way. You wanna talk a mess, the internet is rife with people who half read a report or a book, then spew inaccurate stuff all over, that eventually becomes "known" and "accepted knowledge".

Ponderous man, ponderous.

 

[Rick Deckard]

Wow - thanks for your contributions guys, this thread has turned out a lot better than I thought it would. ;D

Okay, so in summary, the 'UFO community' is full of 'drivers' and 'passengers'. Some 'drivers' think they know where they're going, some will know where they're going 'when they get there' and others just keep driving around in circles, collecting 'fares' and hoping no-one will notice that they aren't actually going anywhere. The rest of us are the 'passengers' and we're just hopping from one 'bus' to another as the mood takes us.

I think I'll 'walk' from now on.

 

[jritzmann]

Rick-it'd be a whole different matter if researchers were not afraid of two statements:

"I dont know"

&

"In my opinion"

Everyone wants fact, and they know that. "I dont know, and In my opinion, dont give the buyer what the seller is trying to sell. I've had people get really bent at me for saying I dont know, but what exactly am I supposed to do? Make something up to appease? My backside...if ya dont know, just say it.