Why they'll never land...

[Hoffmeister]

Ok so i have posted about this issue a little bit in other threads but i feel it is more worthy of its own thread.
Whilst reading Rich Dolans book, I have been thinking a lot about the UFO situation, what it means, and what is really going on behind the scene's.
Now this idea doesn't usually go down that well, here is my theory in bullet points.

1. UFO's are in some cases ET's from another planet.
2. They swing by to study us, and purposely stay out of contact
3. They will probably reveal themselves when and if we ever get interstellar travel to the point where we can get human beings to a different solar system.
4. There is probably more than one different species visiting
5. It is my opinion that the government has never recovered any craft or bodies. They DO know for sure that there are structured craft not from earth whizzing round the globe however, simply by the number of credible reports they have had. The general public will have only heard of a fracion of these reports.
6. The reason for the government keeping the UFO's secret is the same as the Aliens themselves, to stop social meltdown.

I will try to give a brief explanation of my thoughts behind this, mainly focusing on the motives of the aliens and the government. I don't think the issue of whether there are actually structured craft flying round is really in contention by many people in this forum (but feel free to correct me if you disagree).

So let us assume that on some planet somewhere, they have developed interstellar travel. It would seem apparent to me that they have somehow managed to break the current laws of physics and step outside of gravity and possibly even time. Furthermore, it would be reasonable to think that if they are capable of travelling to most places in the galaxy that they will have visited other habited planets alongside ours, and that we are unlikely to have been the first.
It is my belief that when they first visited a new planet, they would have probably landed and declared themselves to develop communications with the habitants as i believe we would if we found another habited planet.

It is also my belief that this would cause absolute havoc in that society as it would if aliens were to land on earth today. They would therefore in time (perhaps after wrecking a few more civilisations) stop declaring themselves to planets which are not ready and instead study them from afar.

Now i don't want to make this post too long so I won't go through all the issues just yet but I will briefly comment on why I think our society would meltdown.

Firstly, almost every example in history of an advanced civilisation meeting a 'backward' one has meant that the current way of life of the guys in loincloths is effectively destroyed.
I believe that aliens landing would be such big news that it would have a devastating effect on most peoples lives. Imagine the news headlines, there would be nothing but aliens for years, and people would be distracted from running their day to day lives, their companies, and their countries.
Whats interesting about this theory, is that its one of the only theories I know that actually portrays the government in a good light, as they try to keep it secret to protect us and our society.

Now please bear in mind, that my post here is mainly just opinions, but for me it is the only plausible explanation. What other explanation fits?
Also, please bear in mind that not only is it late where i am, so i havent been able to explain all my points exactly as I wanted, but also that I find it hard to write my exact thoughts in a post as they are complex, and even change slightly each time i think about the issue.

If you have any thoughts or ideas, i think it goes without saying that they should be constructive, and backed up with reasoning.

 

[Gareth]

You dont offer any reasons for your theory that the GOVT has never recovered any craft. I believe it is very possible that they have. I do believe there has been crashes in the past.

So why dont you believe that there has been crashes?

 

[Bixyboo]

Very good post, Hoffmeister.

However, I DO believe that the government DOES have craft/bodies. And the reason they are NOT revealing that they do, is because MAYBE they can't figure out anything about said craft/bodies and do NOT want the world to know that they couldn't defend themselves (if needed) against said craft/technology/beings.

I think Aliens don't even WANT to reveal themselves, because they don't want to be bothered, particularly.

I don't know what to think if they're studying us or interested in us. We're probably entertaining to them

Just my two cents.

 

[fitzbew88]

...here is my theory in bullet points.
UFO's are in some cases ET's from another planet.

I like it.

They swing by to study us, and purposely stay out of contact

Yes, "they" appear to have not engaged in any kind've formal contact.

They will probably reveal themselves when and if we ever get interstellar travel to the point where we can get human beings to a different solar system.

A reasonable theory. But if I was Chief Alien Contact Officer for Sagittarious Arm Quadrant Beta, I think I would want to get to know new civilizations long before said civilization had the ability to follow me home.

As a matter of fact, I would think having such control would be essential.

There is probably more than one different species visiting

All other things being equal, second-hand descriptions seem to involve different "species". At least they appear to be different.

It is my opinion that the government has never recovered any craft or bodies.

A reasonable guess.

They DO know for sure that there are structured craft not from earth whizzing round the globe however, simply by the number of credible reports they have had.

I'm not sure this is logical. I mean, I'm very familiar with the fact there are lots of lots of credible reports but I still don't know what they represent or where they are from.

In all of the Dolanesque-type stuff I've read, it all seemed like the U.S. government was trying to not act interested, while still being clearly perplexed --- and quite interested.

The reason for the government keeping the UFO's secret is the same as the Aliens themselves, to stop social meltdown.

A popular theory.

...it would be reasonable to think that if they are capable of travelling to most places in the galaxy that they will have visited other habited planets alongside ours, and that we are unlikely to have been the first.

That strikes me as a reasonable guess.

It is my belief that when they first visited a new planet, they would have probably landed and declared themselves to develop communications with the habitants as i believe we would if we found another habited planet.

Hmm. What would we do, what would we do. What should we do? Wow, that might be another cool thread.

I think we would be very very careful.

It is also my belief that this would cause absolute havoc in that society as it would if aliens were to land on earth today. They would therefore in time (perhaps after wrecking a few more civilisations) stop declaring themselves to planets which are not ready and instead study them from afar.

Let's hope so.

I will briefly comment on why I think our society would meltdown.
...
Firstly, almost every example in history of an advanced civilisation meeting a 'backward' one has meant that the current way of life of the guys in loincloths is effectively destroyed.

I understand the comparison here, but I'm not really confident in it. It seems a little "strained" to use our past (primitive human civilizations unexpectedly bumping into other primitive human civilizations) as a predictor for advanced non-human civilizations bumping into us. A somewhat less primitive human civilization.

European explorers weren't operating under the same rules that our future human interstellar explorers will be. Even today, when we study other life here on the planet, we at least make an effort not to quash it.

I guess I'm saying, it's not a given that contact will mean destruction for us.

I believe that aliens landing would be such big news that it would have a devastating effect on most peoples lives. Imagine the news headlines, there would be nothing but aliens for years, and people would be distracted from running their day to day lives, their companies, and their countries.

It would be big news. The fallout (bad choice of words) is hard to predict...it will vary from country to country, culture to culture. My gut says things would fall back to normal eventually. However, this really depends on the circumstances.

You know, reflecting on this a little, the circumstances are everything.

Whats interesting about this theory, is that its one of the only theories I know that actually portrays the government in a good light, as they try to keep it secret to protect us and our society.

Ok.

Now please bear in mind, that my post here is mainly just opinions, but for me it is the only plausible explanation. What other explanation fits?

Fits what?

Also, please bear in mind that not only is it late where i am

It's late where I am too.

so i havent been able to explain all my points exactly as I wanted, but also that I find it hard to write my exact thoughts in a post as they are complex, and even change slightly each time i think about the issue.

Me too.

 

[skunkape]

Here's a good visual metaphor for someone trying to get a rational explanation of what's really going on with UFO's. You know there is something there that's real, but you can usually only grasp it briefly before it slips away.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8AAhmNf-oWY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8AAhmNf-oWY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[Ally]

Here's a good visual metaphor for someone trying to get a rational explanation of what's really going on with UFO's. You know there is something there that's real, but you can usually only grasp it briefly before it slips away.

<EMBED src=http://www.youtube.com/v/8AAhmNf-oWY&hl=en&fs=1 width=425 height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash allowfullscreen="true"></EMBED>

I love to see my cat do this as well and great metaphor!

 

[Hoffmeister]

You dont offer any reasons for your theory that the GOVT has never recovered any craft. I believe it is very possible that they have. I do believe there has been crashes in the past.

So why dont you believe that there has been crashes?

Sorry i'll have to field these questions in different threads as its a bit of a hassle otherwise.

I should really have missed this off my list (like i didn't mention whether i think abductions are real) because it doesnt really affect the rest of the theory. I just threw that it because its what I believe. I just havent seen anything credible to show that they have found craft, but I think the argument that they have is presented very well in Rich Dolans book.

For me though, the MJ12 documents are fakes, and the Roswell incident was probably Mogul. For starters, all the guys in the field found was bits of foil and balsa wood (as described in first hand accounts), sure it might have been different from the ordinary stuff, but how could they jump to the conclusions that it was a disc? From what i can tell it wasnt even disc shaped, it was just a load of debris spread over a mile or so of desert.

Also, I think that no matter what the consequences, someone would have squeeled and taken photo's to the press or something. People didnt do it on the stealth projects, but why would they? If someone went to the press during the 60's or 70'swith photo's of the U-2 saying, "look whats flying over Russia", i think on the most part everyone would just be pissed ast that person for showing the russians what we've got flying. I think it would be different with a UFO, and you would need a LOT of people to study it properly... unless you had someone with supreme intellect like Bob Lazar (joke).

I don't mean to rain on anyones parade about captured craft, i think its possible but i just don't believe its happened, but it doesnt effect this theory either way really.

 

[Hoffmeister]

I think Aliens don't even WANT to reveal themselves, because they don't want to be bothered, particularly.

I don't know what to think if they're studying us or interested in us. We're probably entertaining to them

I think thats true as well. Also, i think if they are studying us, they don't want to screw up the subject data. If you are studying a pack of gazelle's or something in nature, you hide in a bush and film them if you want to see them naturally. You don't go hammering it up to them in a jeep, do a handbrake turn, and then try and talk to one.

 

[Hoffmeister]

if I was Chief Alien Contact Officer for Sagittarious Arm Quadrant Beta, I think I would want to get to know new civilizations long before said civilization had the ability to follow me home.

As a matter of fact, I would think having such control would be essential.

A very good point, in fact that is definately added in to my theory

All other things being equal, second-hand descriptions seem to involve different "species". At least they appear to be different.

Yeah, again it doesnt really effect the theory but i just threw it in there because if one species has worked out how to do it, then it seems probable to me that others have. Also ther different types of craft could suggest it, but not neccesarily.

I'm not sure this is logical. I mean, I'm very familiar with the fact there are lots of lots of credible reports but I still don't know what they represent or where they are from.

In all of the Dolanesque-type stuff I've read, it all seemed like the U.S. government was trying to not act interested, while still being clearly perplexed --- and quite interested.

as i understand it, they are trying to not look interested, but in fact are, but maybe its the same thing.

Quote from page 55 of the book: "inquiries in this mater should be made in such a manner as not to indicate airforce interest" - 1950 Air Force memo on retrieving UFO Movie footage from a civilian

Hmm. What would we do, what would we do. What should we do? Wow, that might be another cool thread.

I think we would be very very careful.

I think the biggest danger would be viruses. If it was our first planet we might not have complete control of viruses and diseases yet, so we could wipe out their entire planet by bringing on some disease or something.
Maybe its a lack of faith in humanity, but i would expect us to go charging on in there and do something stupid on our first attempt

I understand the comparison here, but I'm not really confident in it. It seems a little "strained" to use our past (primitive human civilizations unexpectedly bumping into other primitive human civilizations) as a predictor for advanced non-human civilizations bumping into us. A somewhat less primitive human civilization.

European explorers weren't operating under the same rules that our future human interstellar explorers will be. Even today, when we study other life here on the planet, we at least make an effort not to quash it.

I guess I'm saying, it's not a given that contact will mean destruction for us.

Agreed, I always thought the same thing when Seth Shostak would say it. Still on giving it more thought, i do think there is a high risk there. It would seem to me that when planning the future, you can only really go on whats happened in the past.

Fits what?

Just fits the current situ really. UFO's whizzing round without popping down for any length of time to say hi

 

[Gareth]

Why do you believe the MJ12 docs are fake? In other words, what tips you over the edge in believing theyre fake?

Stanton Friedman and Ryan Wood do a really good job of proving legitimacy. It seems to me that one would have to disprove rather than prove at this stage (considering the efforts at authenticating by those authors and others.)

Remember they say that not all of them are real, but some are. Even Rich Dolan believes that SOM1 01 is real.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Well the thing is there's no proof either way. And with the documents making some bizarre claims like a UFO crashing on the trinity site, it all seems a bit fishy to me, mysterious documents turning up with no sign of the originals, conveniantly after all involved have died. although I fully appreciate that I could be wrong.

As for Rich Dolan, well the thing with him is:
He is an excellent researcher, probably the best UFOlogy has ever seen, and I thin his book is amazing but i really question his judgement in people. He seems to be very one sided towards UFO's definately being real as long as there is some sort of documentation and even uses the claims of Clifford Stone in his book.
Its the only weakness he has imo, he gives way to much of a one sided argument, even though he is clearly trying his best not to do that.

He's still great though

 

[Hoffmeister]

also, why would some be real, and some not? I don't get that...

 

[Gareth]

you need to read or listen to some Stan Friedman. Some are real because theyre real (according to him) and others are clearly fakes because they have spotted obvious give-aways such as sections of a document that are exactly the same as other real documents (not UFO related) but with a few words changed.

Im just curious if youve read any of the papers that attempt to authenticate some of the MJ12 docs? And they did get some originals. If you have done a lot of research then thats cool, I just get the vibe that youre saying something isnt so because it cant be, therefore it isnt. But again, if youve done extensive reading then thats a different story.

Have you read any Stan Friedman or Ryan Wood? have you looked at the papers at majesticdocuments.com? They have auhtentication papers there too (papers written by Wood on why they are legit). also Friedmans website has some stuff. Flying Saucers and Science is Stans latest book to deal with the issue too. he presents a rather compelling case for legitamacy in there. (athough thats definitely not the only book)

As far as Rich mentioning Cliff Stone, youll notice he never cites his '57 races' nonsense... its more mundane stuff. Apparently there was a time when Clifford wasnt a complete nut case.

 

[Hoffmeister]

I've heard all the stan friedman paracasts, and will probably get his latest book. Perhaps i'll come to a different conclusion after reading that. Whilst Stan see's it that some are fake, and some are real, it could be more like all are fake, but only some can be proved fake.
Hey!, lets do a poll on Roswell!

 

[Hoffmeister]

Also, i find it a little hard to believe that these guys would lose one of their ships, and not come in a do a rescue or clear up mission to get their craft back

 

[0uterj0in]

I think the biggest danger would be viruses. If it was our first planet we might not have complete control of viruses and diseases yet, so we could wipe out their entire planet by bringing on some disease or something.

You're assuming that our viruses could "run" on their biological "operating system" -- this would be rather astonishing if so.

 

[Kieran]

Ok so i have posted about this issue a little bit in other threads but i feel it is more worthy of its own thread.
Whilst reading Rich Dolans book, I have been thinking a lot about the UFO situation, what it means, and what is really going on behind the scene's.



Now this idea doesn't usually go down that well, here is my theory in bullet points.

1. UFO's are in some cases ET's from another planet.
2. They swing by to study us, and purposely stay out of contact
3. They will probably reveal themselves when and if we ever get interstellar travel to the point where we can get human beings to a different solar system.
4. There is probably more than one different species visiting
5. It is my opinion that the government has never recovered any craft or bodies. They DO know for sure that there are structured craft not from earth whizzing round the globe however, simply by the number of credible reports they have had. The general public will have only heard of a fracion of these reports.
6. The reason for the government keeping the UFO's secret is the same as the Aliens themselves, to stop social meltdown.

I will try to give a brief explanation of my thoughts behind this, mainly focusing on the motives of the aliens and the government. I don't think the issue of whether there are actually structured craft flying round is really in contention by many people in this forum (but feel free to correct me if you disagree).

So let us assume that on some planet somewhere, they have developed interstellar travel. It would seem apparent to me that they have somehow managed to break the current laws of physics and step outside of gravity and possibly even time. Furthermore, it would be reasonable to think that if they are capable of travelling to most places in the galaxy that they will have visited other habited planets alongside ours, and that we are unlikely to have been the first.
It is my belief that when they first visited a new planet, they would have probably landed and declared themselves to develop communications with the habitants as i believe we would if we found another habited planet.

It is also my belief that this would cause absolute havoc in that society as it would if aliens were to land on earth today. They would therefore in time (perhaps after wrecking a few more civilisations) stop declaring themselves to planets which are not ready and instead study them from afar.

Now i don't want to make this post too long so I won't go through all the issues just yet but I will briefly comment on why I think our society would meltdown.

Firstly, almost every example in history of an advanced civilisation meeting a 'backward' one has meant that the current way of life of the guys in loincloths is effectively destroyed.
I believe that aliens landing would be such big news that it would have a devastating effect on most peoples lives. Imagine the news headlines, there would be nothing but aliens for years, and people would be distracted from running their day to day lives, their companies, and their countries.
Whats interesting about this theory, is that its one of the only theories I know that actually portrays the government in a good light, as they try to keep it secret to protect us and our society.

Now please bear in mind, that my post here is mainly just opinions, but for me it is the only plausible explanation. What other explanation fits?
Also, please bear in mind that not only is it late where i am, so i havent been able to explain all my points exactly as I wanted, but also that I find it hard to write my exact thoughts in a post as they are complex, and even change slightly each time i think about the issue.

If you have any thoughts or ideas, i think it goes without saying that they should be constructive, and backed up with reasoning.

Interesting post Hoff. I love to post when i have the time, but i am trying to read the posts from yesterday and today ,and it takes a long time. I only have an hour ,or so to get through all the unread posts.

I like your ideas, but i wonder alot !
Why would a species from destinations outside our planet care about our society? ,and why would they not reveal themselves more in a open manner? since it is very unlikely and probably not going to happen for thousands, or perhaps hundreds of thousands of years that us, meaning "humans" , could be able to travel far distances beyond our planet.?

What threat are we to them, we can barely get of this planet, the moon is the only real space travel, humans have undertaken.

 

[macavity]

As for Rich Dolan, well the thing with him is:
He is an excellent researcher, probably the best UFOlogy has ever seen, and I thin his book is amazing but i really question his judgement in people. He seems to be very one sided towards UFO's definately being real as long as there is some sort of documentation and even uses the claims of Clifford Stone in his book.
Its the only weakness he has imo, he gives way to much of a one sided argument, even though he is clearly trying his best not to do that.

He's still great though

I share this opinion, Hoff. Rich seems like a nice guy but he seems to accept a lot of things at face value which I would question (to put it mildly).

 

[Hoffmeister]

Why would a species from destinations outside our planet care about our society? ,and why would they not reveal themselves more in a open manner? since it is very unlikely and probably not going to happen for thousands, or perhaps hundreds of thousands of years that us, meaning "humans" , could be able to travel far distances beyond our planet.?

What threat are we to them, we can barely get of this planet, the moon is the only real space travel, humans have undertaken.

I don't think they particularly care about our planet. But i do think that they would probably be interested in studying us, as they would any other civilisation, as we would to any random civilisation that we found in the amazon or wherever.
Right now of course, we are no threat, but its not out of the question to think that they might wanna keep tabs on us considering how much fighting we do.

 

[Hoffmeister]

You're assuming that our viruses could "run" on their biological "operating system" -- this would be rather astonishing if so.

I think that sort of thing is all way beyond my comprehension lol!