• NEW! LOWEST RATES EVER -- SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY THE VERY BEST PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+, eight years young! For a low subscription fee, you can download the ad-free version of The Paracast and the exclusive, member-only, After The Paracast bonus podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, the continuation of interviews that began on the main episode of The Paracast. We also offer lifetime memberships! Flash! Take advantage of our lowest rates ever! Act now! It's easier than ever to susbcribe! You can sign up right here!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!

Consciousness and the Paranormal

Free episodes:

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's true, and while the overemphasis is a problem, the focus on and understanding of substances and properties itself is a very powerful thing (as far as understanding the nature of reality... or at least our local portion of it (that is to say, our particular universe (or at least, our particular section of universe))).

In other words, in order to "understand the emergence of living subjectivity from living being" substances and properties will need to be considered.

I don't think anyone here is arguing with that. Consciousness is always embodied in our own lived experience of it (though many humans have experienced what they cannot explain as intersections with consciousnesses and information that do not originate with a physically present entity of some kind). I think that we unquestionably need to investigate the bodily substrate of consciousness as, in my view, facilitated by the brain. That's why Evan Thompson's Mind in Life: Biology, Phenomenology, and the Sciences of the Mind is essential reading for researchers of consciousness.

Take spoken language for example. To reduce a language to sound waves, ears, the auditory cortex, syllables, diphthongs, semantics, tone, geographic region, dialects, stuttering, and on and on, would be a mistake. Language is all of these things, not just sound waves, syllables, or words. All these aspects of language can be studied in their own right. And each aspect will interest different people.

Speech and written language also affect us as meaningful utterances of our fellow humans. Indeed, the manner in which experience and reflections on experience are expressed in language are as significant as -- and in many cases more significant than -- the denotative content of 'what' is being expressed. Poetry is the sublime example of this; political speech is often a debased example when its goals and intentions are to mislead and manipulate its audience toward inferior ends.

Consciousness is no different. When I ponder whether "mind" is made of matter, information, a property of some primal substance, or a dual substance, I'm not suggesting that's all there is to consciousness! That's the micro, and we live in the macro. I'm interested in all of it.

Yes, we live in and experience the world at the macro level expressed in what we call classical reality in our zone of the universe's physical being. We have no idea yet how reality as we experience it is informed or enformed by micro processes and relationships deeper in nature (quantum consciousness researchers and other scientists are attempting to discover how the quantum substrate produces the local classical reality we live in). I think those of us participating in this conversation are all interested in all of it.

Some may resist the very idea that consciousness/mind is made out of anything. However, I think this "feeling" is a product of experience, which occurs on the macro level. An interesting study I think illustrates this idea:

Does speech occur in a continuous stream? No, but if you've ever heard someone speak in a language you didn't know, it certainly sounds like a stream.

So it is with consciousness: We experience it as a seamless stream, but like a stream of speech, it is composed of units - both on the macro level and the micro level.

The key questions are 'what are the units?' and 'how do they -- through the processes of their interaction -- produce the complexity we recognize in nature, life, and consciousness/mind'? For Maturana, Varela, Thompson et al, we need to understand life -- thus biology -- to begin to understand consciousness. We also need to understand developmental systems theory and information theory. How indeed does nature as a system of systems producing life also produce individual consciousness, which we experience, as you say, in a "seamless stream" of our own being and thinking in response to the historically worlded world we live in -- a world brought to its present condition by the confluence of many distinct historically developed culture. These cultures have all developed in and out of the confluence of nature and mind in human history produced socially, by innumerable individual consciousnesses working together and against one another. How can an information-based theory of consciousness of the type presented by Tononi -- where 'information' operates at levels beneath the level of embodied consciousness, ultimately producing consciousness {when? where?} -- account for the history of our species activities and ideas on earth?

And what is the relationship between information and qualia? Is Tonini on the right path or way off?

I think Tononi does not understand, and thus does not attempt to respond to, the qualitative nature of consciousness that arose at least 50,000 years ago according to some anthropologists (and I would guess far earlier than that). We have only to observe the interactions of members of still-extant species from which we evolved, the protohuman species that eventuated in homo sapiens, to recognize the qualitative nature of their consciousnesses in their behaviors toward one another. See de Waals.

While the mind/consciousness is vastly more complicated than a series of electrical pulses, many aspects of the brain do appear to create experience by - to some degree - processing information.

I think it would be more precise to say that processes in the brain and their interconnections enable consciousness and thinking about consciousness and mind, not that those processes "create experience." What creates experience is interaction between conscious beings such as ourselves and the environment in which we exist, in which we begin to move as soon as we can crawl or stand. Exploring the world around us we gradually discover ourselves as consciousnesses involved with the nature that meets (or does not meet) our felt needs and with the others among whom we live and whom we recognize as like ourselves in their consciousness, situation, desires, fears, goals, etc..

The brain <> the mind, but from conception to death, the brain and mind seem to develop together. Whether or not some aspects of mind exist prior to and after the brain, I don't know. While the material of which the brain is made dissipates after death, it doesn't cease to exist. I would assume the same about the material of which the mind is made.

I agree.
 
Last edited:
@Constance - here he talks about a TS Eliot poem where he writes of a great sense of oneness, unity with God – and asks if it was just that he had a good dinner?

I couldn't find the quote . . . but maybe you know it?

So how can you trust anything that comes up in this mind if it’s just the backside of a physical process?"

I can't put my finger on the quotation but it expresses an idea that recurred in Eliot's poetry and was deeply troubling to him. Like all of the Modernist poets he was trying to adjust his thinking to the reductive view of humankind dominant in the materialist science and philosophy of his time. As a religious thinker, this was particularly difficult for him.
 
@Constance

... try "editing" the post, highlight the text and click the Tx in the upper right hand corner of the format bar ... "remove formatting" ...

I think it would be more precise to say that processes in the brain and their interconnections enable consciousness and thinking about consciousness and mind, not that those processes "create experience." What creates experience is interaction between conscious beings such as ourselves and the environment in which we exist, in which we begin to move as soon as we can crawl or stand. Exploring the world around us we gradually discover ourselves as consciousnesses involved with the nature that meets (or does not meet) our felt needs and with the others among whom we live and whom we recognize as like ourselves in their consciousness, situation, desires, fears, goals, etc..

We actually go out into the world - into consciousness, the whole precondition of consciousness of being aware , to me, requires the entire universe(s) ... it all has to be there for us to be here . . . if I were God, I'd just throw a whole lot of stuff out there, willy-nilly then bring something into being capable of putting it together in delightful new ways . . . I call this the Kilgore Trout Principle (KTP)
 
I can't put my finger on the quotation but it expresses an idea that recurred in Eliot's poetry and was deeply troubling to him. Like all of the Modernist poets he was trying to adjust his thinking to the reductive view of humankind dominant in the materialist science and philosophy of his time. As a religious thinker, this was particularly difficult for him.

Dickens talked about a piece of undigested potato to account for Marley . . . I can't adjust my thinking, I find it is impossible as I am always leaving something out!
 
Some may resist the very idea that consciousness/mind is made out of anything. However, I think this "feeling" is a product of experience, which occurs on the macro level. An interesting study I think illustrates this idea:

I think this is a good illustration of a couple of points in the Buddhist talk I posted:

I think the Buddha would be agnostic on this point (what is consciousness made out of) - first, because we don't know (and we don't know if it's even a question that makes sense - it's hard to wrap our minds around someone who doesn't want to say that everything is made of something, but that is a materialistic assumption) so we truly don't know and good agnosticism says we should act like we don't know - agnosticism doesn't mean, I don't know, therefore I'll make an assumption . . . .
Excellent.

... and secondly the agnosticism makes sense because we don't have to know - it's not relevant (to the Buddha's point of view in terms of ending suffering)

Given that we can't know -- or don't presently know -- it does not have to be relevant (every day) for me, as an existential phenomenologist, either. And it's a great relief sometimes to realize that, to just take a break from all this ungrounded theory.

but also b/c making an assumption that it is (or isn't) made of something has consequences . . . in the case of it is made of something, consciousness (and therefore you) can now be objectified.

Indeed and that is critically important for how we live now (which is why I return to theoretical discussions like this one). The Buddhist makes one kind of choice; the existential phenomenologist makes another -- to take the phenomenally disclosed world as real, with real and outrageous and unnecessary suffering in it, and to construct rational social theory and resulting politico-economic programs to relieve that suffering and injustice.

So this is why he asks:

But if you are described in this way – do you feel this covers everything that can be known about you?

I think most people would say "no, it doesn't." And wonder what we are to do about it.

It also places limitations on what you can know - if consciousness is the product of a physical process, then how can you trust anything that goes on in your head?

Reductive physicalism only assumes that it can place limitations on what we know and can know through our own conscious experience.
 
Excellent.



Given that we can't know -- or don't presently know -- it does not have to be relevant (every day) for me, as an existential phenomenologist, either. And it's a great relief sometimes to realize that, to just take a break from all this ungrounded theory.



Indeed and that is critically important for how we live now (which is why I return to theoretical discussions like this one). The Buddhist makes one kind of choice; the existential phenomenologist makes another -- to take the phenomenally disclosed world as real, with real and outrageous and unnecessary suffering in it, and to construct rational social theory and resulting politico-economic programs to relieve that suffering and injustice.



I think most people would say "no, it doesn't." And wonder what we are to do about it.



Reductive physicalism only assumes that it can place limitations on what we know and can know through our own conscious experience.

Indeed and that is critically important for how we live now (which is why I return to theoretical discussions like this one). The Buddhist makes one kind of choice; the existential phenomenologist makes another -- to take the phenomenally disclosed world as real, with real and outrageous and unnecessary suffering in it, and to construct rational social theory and resulting politico-economic programs to relieve that suffering and injustice.

an important point!

Thich Nhat Hahn ( sp?) - took Buddhism out of the monastery and engaged the world ... you may remember the self immolation of the Vietnamese monk in protest if the war and I think you will appreciate the fire sermon:

Adittapariyaya Sutta: The Fire Sermon

but The Buddha taught one thing: suffering and the end of suffering ... so I think it does stand opposite Nietzsches mad embrace of the world in terms of the doctrine of eternal recurrence ... all life is feeding says the Buddha and "life is trouble, boss" says Zorba the Greek!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Because it's Peterson, I find it interesting. He believes the explanatory gap can be closed, and that it may happen in the next hundred years. But he was not impressed with the quantum theory he had read.

"maybe" he says ...

at 1:06 he says

"maybe it won't occur"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hard to tell sometimes, isn't it, with our minds peopled by so many other minds (both actual and fictional) talking back and forth? ;)

it is ... I think very little of what is in my head is "me" - that's why quieting the mind is such a relief for me - to just be (oops! Jonathon Livingston Seagull!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
@smcder

Thanissaro Bhikkhu: Dependent Co-arising - Readings 13 to 23 - Consciousness - (9 of 10)

Given that if your conciousness is just the product of physical processes, you can’t really trust anything that’s going on in your minds – there really are no oughts, there is no “should” at all.
But if you are described in this way – do you feel this covers everything that can be known about you?" ...

The really important example of course is pain. Pain is a totally subjective experience, can’t be explained in terms of your consciousness is just a byproduct of the body – how you feel pain, what the pain feels like – nobody else can know … this is just your own personal knowledge.
Micro <> Macro

You can't explain economics using particle physics. But no one is claiming there is a matter-economics duality.
"(you're) ... going to have to assume there are mental functions that don’t depend on the body and this is where Buddhism really splits with the common materialistic view that everything in your consciousness has to come from some physical process, he says there are some mental processes that don’t depend on the body.

.. if you don’t believe that, (the Buddha says) its going to be hard to practice – it is possible for the body to exist in a formless realm, that doesn’t depend on physical processes at all . . .. and then finally he asks you to accept the possibility of awareness that would lie outside of space and time so you’re not just something in space and time, but there is a possibility of being aware of a dimension outside of space and time. These are some of the things he wants you to be able to accept as working hypostheses … (and) with the experience of awakening you will have verified these things." ...
This of course will be my "monist" spin on things, but I don't disagree with this. (Who am I to disagree with the Buddha anyhow, eh?)

@Constance may disagree, but I think objective, materialist science is inching closer to understanding how living experience arises from the interaction of brains/bodies and the environment. (More on that later.)

What I think is more distant is to explain/conceptualize how "self-aware experience" arises from the intersection of brain/body and environment.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that self-aware experience doesn't depend on physical processes, I would wager that it more directly results from mental processes.

An analogy:

Physics > economics > insider trading

Organism > experience > self-aware experience

I think the Buddha would be agnostic on this point (what is consciousness made out of) - first, because we don't know (and we don't know if it's even a question that makes sense - it's hard to wrap our minds around someone who doesn't want to say that everything is made of something, but that is a materialistic assumption) so we truly don't know and good agnosticism says we should act like we don't know - agnosticism doesn't mean, I don't know, therefore I'll make an assumption
But everything could be made out of something, right? (Resist imagining this "something" must be a physical something.)

As illustrated above, even the Buddha makes assumptions and utilizes hypothesis.
 
Last edited:
@Soupie ... as far as I'm concerned it can be turtles all the way down! everything can be made of something or some thing or some thing(s) - I can do everything I want to however it works out and the world will not have changed. but I'm concerned with those who have already decided how it is and what they think this mean. am I a Thou or an it to them?

But I doubt there will ever be an end to it - that well know what everything's made of (what are other universe made of? what is dark matter? what is regular matter anyway?) science is indeed inching across such vast questions ... politicians are impatient with such rates of progress you'll note and they fund the research ... where is the trillion dollar consciousness project?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
the Buddha says take this as a working hypothesis - he says when you become enlightened you will validate the hypothesis


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
... do you not see a problem with using economics as an example? ...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I think Tononi does not understand, and thus does not attempt to respond to, the qualitative nature of consciousness that arose at least 50,000 years ago according to some anthropologists (and I would guess far earlier than that).
I strongly disagree. Indeed, Tonini is attempting to explain this very thing!

Also, I think the qualitative nature of consciousness arose long, long before 50,000 years ago!
Tonini | ITT

By contrast, you discriminate among a vast repertoire of states as an integrated system, one that cannot be broken down into independent components each with its own separate repertoire. Phenomenologically, every experience is an integrated whole, one that means what it means by virtue of being one, and that is experienced from a single point of view. For example, the experience of a red square cannot be decomposed into the separate experience of red and the separate experience of a square. Similarly, experiencing the full visual field cannot be decomposed into experiencing separately the left half and the right half: such a possibility does not even make sense to us, since experience is always whole. Indeed, the only way to split an experience into independent experiences seems to be to split the brain in two, as in patients who underwent the section of the corpus callosum to treat severe epilepsy (Gazzaniga, 2005). Such patients do indeed experience the left half of the visual field independently of the right side, but then the surgery has created two separate consciousnesses instead of one. Mechanistically then, underlying the unity of experience must be causal interactions among certain elements within the brain. This means that these elements work together as an integrated system, which is why their performance, unlike that of the camera, breaks down if they are disconnected.

This phenomenological analysis suggests that, to generate consciousness, a physical system must be able to discriminate among a large repertoire of states (information) and it must be unified; that is, it should be doing so as a single system, one that is not decomposable into a collection of causally independent parts (integration). ...

Perhaps the most important notion emerging from this approach is that an experience is a shape in Q. According to the IIT, this shape completely and univocally specifies the quality of experience. It follows that different experiences are, literally, different shapes in Q.
In other words, Tonini is suggesting that qualitative experience arises via the organism's ability to discriminate and integrate staggeringly vast amounts of stimuli. This integrated information is qualitative experience. Living organisms interact with the environment (and vice versa) and integrated information (living experience) arises.

Use your illusion: why human vision is a mathematical impossibility – Telegraph Blogs

“Colour doesn’t exist in the world,” says Dr Beau Lotto, a neuroscientist at University College London. “Nothing is coloured. That's obvious.” But it’s worse than that: “It’s impossible to see the world as it really is. A mathematical impossibility. This problem isn't just the problem of colour vision, it's the problem of vision, it's the problem of the brain. The problem of uncertainty.”

He can prove it, too. He shows me various illusions of his own creation, designed to reveal the weaknesses and assumptions in our colour vision; the same bland grey can appear vivid blue or bright yellow, depending on its surroundings; the same desert scene appears daylight or twilight depending on the colour you’ve just been staring at. What we see is not what is there, he tells me; it’s what is useful for us to see. And the way that our minds represent colour – and how that representation is affected by context, by mood, by expectation – reveals unexpected truths about how our minds work. ...

But they’re not true. Colour doesn’t exist. The grass is not green, and the sky is not blue. ...

“Blue” is not a property of denim, or skies, or oceans, but of how our eyes interpret a particular set of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, which we call visible light. Red is not a property of blood or cocktail dresses but how our eyes interpret another, longer set of wavelengths. ...

That means that we only see a tiny, tiny fragment of the universe. The electromagnetic spectrum is huge. Radio waves can have wavelengths measured in kilometres; gamma rays, at the other end, have wavelengths measured in picometres, trillionths of a metre, smaller than the diameter of an atom. The light we see, the entire familiar rainbow, is only that between 390 and 700 nanometers – billionths of a meter. It is a sliver of a sliver, a fraction of a dot.

“What we see” is not “what is out there”. ...

So how can you see? Sight – as a faithful representation of an outer world – is literally impossible. What, then, are we doing? What is it that we see?

We have no direct access to the world, we only have our senses, through the energy that falls onto our different receptors,” says Lotto. “What we see is never what's there, because we have no access to it.” We can’t ever step outside into the world and see whether our perception is correct. Instead, we can only operate on what’s useful.

The only way you're able to validate the information is behaviourally: you can say, that was useful, or that was not useful. I behaved usefully towards this thing, or I didn't,” Lotto says. ...

Colour is not what is out in the world, it is a useful way that our brains have come up with for representing the world – and what we learn from colour vision applies to the rest of the brain’s interaction with the world. ...

If we continue to assume that the brain evolved to see the world as it really is, you'll constantly be looking for representations of the world in the brain, and we're never going to figure it out,” says Lotto, just like the German codebreakers. “But if we change our framework of what we think the brain is really there to do, which is to resolve uncertainty in a way which is useful, then we might be able to understand stuff.
This really dovetails with William James' "filter" theory of consciousness.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top