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A question for the Skeptics

Free episodes:

Ron Collins

Curiously Confused
I would like to know if the ardent skeptics out there have UFO cases that they consider solid cases that may have a less than prosaic answer.

If not, would you be willing to discuss point for point in a particular set of cases? I think the cases chronicled by Paul's Best Evidence is a good place to start.

Any takers?
 
I know the most about early cases and none of them strike me as absolutely solid though some are interesting and can not be explained away (perhaps only because there is not enough evidence one way or another).

My favorite case is Valentich, which is super spooky.

Which cases did you wish to discuss?

Lance

What do you think of the Hudson valley UFO flap of the 1980's? This is in my opinion the World's best UFO case. It wasn't a one off event. It took place over many years. And thousands probably saw these craft in that time-frame.
 
To my mind, the most troubling UFO case is the one that occurred in Colares, Brazil 1977. In terms of evidence, there remains the findings of Project Prato. These include images, diagrams, witness statements, military observer statements, video(missing) and much later testimony from Colonel Hollanda. Allied to this evidence are the contemporary witness statements from the Doctor who treated alleged victims, images of at least one victim and accounts of the witnesses.

The descriptions of UFO activity encompass the whole range of typical UFOs. Cigar-shaped craft, orbs, spheres and very strange looking objects allegedly containing humanoid figures.

The descriptions of the events involved 'chupa-chupas' in the skies above the small towns of Belem and Colares in the Para region. UFOs were sighted. Eventually, small red orbs were seen in people's homes during the night. These orbs would shine a thin red beam at the observer which apparently left burn marks on the skin. Apart from the fear these incidents caused, the victims later felt exceedingly weak. Some attended the local Doctor and were found to be exhibiting similar symptoms to post-chemo patients.

The activity escalated to the point of localised panic/hysteria. Power cuts occurred after UFO fly-bys. UFOs were sighted rising out of the bay and flying off at high speeds. Sightings happened every night and some days for a period of 3 months.

The locals hassled the Mayor to deal with the situation. He pestered the military and they sent field investigators. The resulting investigation was titled Project Prato. The bulk of the case files from Project Prato was released to the public just a couple of years ago. As far as I know, they are still available to download. If any members want them, I'm happy to email them.

I've considered the possibility that an agency like the CIA were actively running a psyop exercise along the lines of MKULTRA. Maybe they were flying over in choppers with strange flashing lights hanging way down on cables? Perhaps they used controlled balloons to suspend the wide variety of UFO shapes and colours from? The complexity of the witness statements, images and Prato reports conflict with this elaborate, though prosaic, explanation.

I only know one person who implies knowledge of what really happened and he won't say.
 
With the passage of time, one can always construct enough counter-arguments to smartly 86 any credible sighting. This certainly does not mean we shouldn't look at reports critically, but we do need to recognize that you can make any witness or group of witnesses look less than reliable after the fact by generating 'logical' reasons why they didn't experience what they claim they experienced. The reality is that most people aren't idiots, aren't lying and have enough common sense to say whether what they saw is within the realm of normal everyday experience.

I for one have always liked the Kelly Johnson case, which includes his team of aeronautical engineers.
 
Great topic Ron.
There are very interesting cases out there, many of which are outlined in Paul Kimball's documentary that he's posted a link to in this forum. However, I like to consider them as unexplained, as opposed to saying that anything alien or paranormal is involved. The thing to understand about skeptics is that we will not accept a paranormal explanation when a prosaic one is possible. If no prosaic one seems possible (and I think that's rare), that's when it becomes unexplained. A real skeptic will NEVER concede that something is supernatural, since we don't believe in that stuff. When you prove it to us though, we'll gladly accept it. Any skeptic that doesn't accept something even though there is verifiable proof is not a skeptic. That type of person is called an asshole.
So to summarize, there are no UFO cases that are paranormal, but there are plenty of interesting unexplained things seen in the sky for people to misunderstand. Even so called "reliable witnesses" like Kelly Johnson are not infallible. Even if he saw something strange in the sky that was corroborated by his team in a different location does not make that case paranormal. The real answer is that when something is unexplained, we just don't know. If you want to attribute something paranormal or alien to it, you're definitely allowed to do it. Keep in mind that I won't.
 
Yup, I vote for Project Prato, one of my favourite cases too.

Also Fatima 1917, Portugal, is facinating, it includes tousands of witnesses over 6 month, "rendez-vous" events, physical and meteorological effects, physiological and psychic effects , the whole zoo...
 
With the passage of time, one can always construct enough counter-arguments to smartly 86 any credible sighting. This certainly does not mean we shouldn't look at reports critically, but we do need to recognize that you can make any witness or group of witnesses look less than reliable after the fact by generating 'logical' reasons why they didn't experience what they claim they experienced. The reality is that most people aren't idiots, aren't lying and have enough common sense to say whether what they saw is within the realm of normal everyday experience.

I for one have always liked the Kelly Johnson case, which includes his team of aeronautical engineers.


Well said Tom. I also agree that the Kelly Johnson case is a very good one.

I think that using the term "skeptic" isn't exactly correct though. There are the "debunkers" who will classify everything as having natural causes, or misidentified aircraft, or mass hallucination; then there are the skeptics who try to examine the evidence, and prefer to consider things "unexplained" rather than draw any conclusions.
 
My problem with "asking" "skeptics" is that you might as well ask Pat Robertson how you can prove to him that the bible is not literal and that Buddism is a valid belief system. Waste of time!
 
Wow, another case solved then... Thanks Angel :D

BTW this website is freaky, skeptoids ... sounds like a mental disorder.

It's a great podcast - short and sweet. The host brings up some fantastic points.

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

My problem with "asking" "skeptics" is that you might as well ask Pat Robertson how you can prove to him that the bible is not literal and that Buddism is a valid belief system. Waste of time!

Skeptics are the best people to ask - we use facts and don't pull explanations out of nowhere. We also can be convinced of something if provided with proper evidence unlike a person like Pat Robertson.
 
It's a great podcast - short and sweet. The host brings up some fantastic points.

I listened to a few episodes and I didn't like the hosts attitude. So I choose not to listen to any more episodes.

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------



Skeptics are the best people to ask - we use facts and don't pull explanations out of nowhere. We also can be convinced of something if provided with proper evidence unlike a person like Pat Robertson.

While I consider myself a skeptic, I would prefer the term "critical thinker" to be used. I think the majority of people on this board are of the same mindset. Most of us can agree that there are some strange things happening in earth's atmosphere, and not all of them seem to have a natural or even a man-made explanation.
 
I listened to a few episodes and I didn't like the hosts attitude. So I choose not to listen to any more episodes.



While I consider myself a skeptic, I would prefer the term "critical thinker" to be used. I think the majority of people on this board are of the same mindset. Most of us can agree that there are some strange things happening in earth's atmosphere, and not all of them seem to have a natural or even a man-made explanation.

That's an important point - not all of them SEEM to have a natural explanation. It doesn't mean that they don't though. It's important to say that we just don't know. What I do know is that my mindset will not allow me to turn to the paranormal. I could be wrong though.
We do have to admit that saying a UFO is non-human or paranormal is a jump in logic.
 
We do have to admit that saying a UFO is non-human or paranormal is a jump in logic.

I agree completely. For me it's not about determining origin. First and foremost it is about defining the phenomenon represented in a given situation and then determining if that fits logically into the characteristics of known phenomenon. For instance, the RB-47 case illustrated in Best Evidence. I think this case is a very good one to talk about. If you all agree, I will gather the material available on this particular subject, if anyone wants to help then please feel free, and then we can review it and discuss it point by point.

My hope is to show that there is a genuinely anomalous phenomenon and that the phenomenon has characteristics consistent with a real physical structure and that it demonstrates behavior consistent with intelligent control. To me this kind of deconstruction of an event is what I think is needed in order to find common ground and to clearly identify where our divergences are.

We are all smart people. So we begin with that base level of respect for one another. Now lets go granular and truly explore our convictions. I do not expect this to be a quick process, or at least to my mind it needs to not be a quick process. it needs to be deliberate. But I think we can all learn a lot from the process.
 
That's an important point - not all of them SEEM to have a natural explanation. It doesn't mean that they don't though. It's important to say that we just don't know. What I do know is that my mindset will not allow me to turn to the paranormal. I could be wrong though.
We do have to admit that saying a UFO is non-human or paranormal is a jump in logic.

I don't agree. I believe some UFO's are piloted by non humans and to show that is not a jump in logic. Let us go back to the time of when the Belgium sightings were at their peak. It is accepted, not disputed that F-16 fighters left there base at Beauvechain on March 30 1990. They were scrambled, because a unknown object was picked up on radar inside Belgium Airspace at a height of 3,000 feet. We know the F-16 pilots locked on to the object, they were searching for, by using the onboard radar system. What happened next unquestionably in my mind confirms this object was not piloted by human pilots. The onboard radar tapes show this object descending from 6,000 feet to 3,300 feet in a mere two seconds. So that alone that tells you it was under some control. Since it moved from one spot to the other in the blink of an eye. The Object pulled away at 46G 46 times the force of gravity. No human being on the planet could've survived that descend!! We can debate if this was a craft of ours or not, personally i believe it wasn't. I'm a skeptic, when the evidence isn't great, but the evidence is certainly overwhelming for this object been of nonhuman origin.
 
Ugh Fatima... the stories that young children make up.

Read this: Illuminating the Fatima

I read the article carefully. I am not a Catholic or believer in any sort of religious dogma, but the explanations offered seem to adequately explain some effects and events, but not others. The discussion of the crowd size is not really conclusive, since it is not possible to determine how many people were in the vicinity simply by referring to a few photographs. Any conclusive evidence would probably have been garnered if the photograher (or photographers) stood on the highest point and took multiple pictures that encompassed the whole area. But inaccuracies in reported attendance for the supposed apparitions is not really the issue, and it is seemingly disingenuous to bring it in as a factor when addressing the main subject of the event.

While there are many photos of the crowd in the sun, and it was reported to be raining heavily, as far as I can remember, the rain had stopped when the apparent apparitions started, so there is really no issue there. Also, if there was a break in the rain, it would seem logical that the photographers would choose that moment to take their pictures, rather than dealing with wet equipment and less light. Finally, are all these photos conclusively authenticated as having been taken at Fatima on October 13, 1917? If not, neither side can make a good case.

The best that the author Dunning does is cast serious doubt on the veracity of the children and point a doubting finger at the journalistic accuracy of the time, although at least one of the papers reporting on the event were apparently anti-Catholic and would not want to add fuel to the fires of religious fervor. He also makes a decent (but not conclusive) case for the apparent light phenomena resulting from people staring at the sun and being predisposed to see miraculous things. He is not the first to do this.

If we can discount the children's stories, how do we account for the reported fact that people saw the sun (or some bright light) doing strange things from miles away? Did the message that something unusual was going on get passed along in minutes for miles around and cause others to "hallucinate" or otherwise make more of the phenomenon than there was?

The three "secrets" to me are beside the point, since they do not have anything to do with determining the veracity of any anomalous atmospheric events and the witnesses and newspaper reporting. Good to know that they consist of virtually nothing important or in the case of the third "secret," verifiable.

I don't know if there was something truly anomalous going on at Fatima in 1917, or people just wanted to believe so badly that mundane events and made-up stories got blown out of proportion, but conclusions on both sides appear to be comprised at least partly of wishful thinking.

Reasonable doubt does not always equal certainty, unless you subscribe to the axiom that unproven is non-existent. I think in the area of the paranormal, that doubt is a good tool, but I don't agree that something currently unexplainable (or inadequately explained or debunked) is not worthy of further study and speculation. Besides, I find it more intersesting that way.

True skepticism in great. But fundamentalist skepticism (FS) as well as belief (both involving making one's mind up what the answer is before, or instead of, looking at all the evidence) seems to afflict many people who don't realize it. Believers don't want their sense of wonder shattered and FS'ers think that the weak-minded are being led astray. Believers think that the FS'ers are obstinate, closed-minded party-poopers. The FS'ers think the believers are sheep who need saving. Who's right?
 
There's a lot of threads up today about skepticism. Another one had gotten me thinking about Phil Klass. I remember him being interviewed by Bill Curtis for a documentary. Klass said something like, "If my TV stops working I don't assume that a ghost did it." That's a fair point and Curtis sure ate it up. But being familiar with Klass's mindset I would have followed it up by asking, "Wouldn't it be equally irrational to assume that it was a malfunction if you were to see a ghost climb out of it?" The point being that approaching anything with your mind made up beforehand is cloudy thinking regardless of your viewpoint. Guys like Klass and Menzel were to the skeptical side of the fence as Salla and Greer are to the proponent's side. I fail to see how one is better than the other.

But anyway, the word skeptic gets improperly used way too often. When I think of skeptics people like Richard Hall, Kevin Randle, and Richard Haines come to my mind. Somebody mentioned skeptoid in here. Well, that guy may very well be a skeptoid but he sure as hell isn't a skeptic.
 
I wrote about this idea, Wickerman, and why I think it's not a fair comparison in my article on the sTARBABY controversy at notaghost.com.

Lance

I read your article and I cannot agree. I will admit that I am not as familiar with the work of current debunkers as I am Menzel and Klass. That's because after getting a heaping helping of their nonsense I learned to avoid characters like that. Read UFO books written by Klass and Menzel and try claiming that there isn't NUMEROUS distortions and omissions of data to arrive at outlandish conclusions. It's hard to keep everything straight because I haven't read them in a long time but if memory serves me correctly Klass claimed that the mass Belgium sightings of the late 80s/early 90s were the result of a disco's lights shining off of clouds! Never mind the fact that these disco lights were tracked by five radar stations on the ground, were also tracked by the on-board radar systems of two interceptors (One even locking on at one point.), were photographed, and were witnessed by thousands of people. Disco lights! It would be one thing if this were just one embarrassing episode. But comical explanations like this were par for the course for the likes of Menzel and Klass. If you're familiar with ALL THE ACTUAL details of the cases reading their books is akin to popping a Monty Python movie into your DVD player. If you are not familiar with those details ahead of time you're in for a hell of a con job.

A sure way to know you're dealing with a close-minded debunker rather than a skeptic? They have an explanation for EVERYTHING. Skeptics aren't afraid to say, "I don't know."
 
I can see some merit in what you are saying. I can see some of that "answer for anything" attitude in Klass. Houdini was said to be like that as well. But at the same time, Klass (the person I am most familiar with) did some great work that shouldn't be dismissed. For instance, his connection of Bill Moore to the MJ-12 papers is definitive. His account of the Travis Walton fiasco shows just how far the other side is willing to go to create UFO's. And there are many others.

Can you name one of the other accounts from his books that you found to be so obviously wrong? I am not familiar with the one you mention (but I don't have Klass' 1st book).

Lance

Only decent point I've ever heard from debunkers regarding Travis Walton was something about a chemical being absent from his urine. Yeah, he failed his first polygraph but so what? Polygraphs are voodoo science anyway and shouldn't be taken seriously. Nor should he have been polygraphed within days of the event since all a polygraph can do is measure the stress level of a person. Bob Lazar passed his polygraph exam. That goes to show how useful they are. I don't know if you have Jerome Clark's excellent UFO Encyclopedias. The Walton entry is very good and destroys many of the points raised by skeptics. I don't know if it's online anywhere or not. But that being said I'm on the fence with Walton's claims.

It's probably been ten years since I've read any of their stuff. It's difficult to remember specifics now but I did comment about Menzel's "explanation" to the Father Gill case in another thread (But admittedly that came about from reading Philip Imbrogno recently as opposed to remembering it from Menzel's books.). I am not even totally certain that I have that thing about disco lights correct regarding Phil Klass. I looked for confirmation on the web and wasn't finding it, wasn't really finding anything from him on that case in fact. But my gut is really feeling that he said that at one time and that I was floored by it. But even though it's difficult to recall specifics I remember very well the flavor of their writings. It was omit this, distort that, and force on some prosaic conclusion.
 
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