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Abduction

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Angel of Ioren said:
I honestly think that it's psychological. Who's to say that what you're seeing isn't psychological?
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Explain to me how multiple witnesses can see something psychological. I'm not talking about distant lights in the sky. I'm talking about something you can hit with a rock and it ain't human.
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Angel of Ioren said:
Well, you'll hate my answer because it's based in something that's less esoteric than beings from somewhere else, or from here.
I honestly think that it's psychological. I've had sleep paralysis that has induced visions of terrible things poking and prodding at me, but I know that it's sleep paralysis because that's been proven. Who's to say that what you're seeing isn't psychological? I know that you don't believe that, but you have to see it from my perspective as well.
And yes, I believe in UFOs insomuch as they are objects in the sky that are unidentified.
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That explanation fails for several reasons. There are a lot of reasons why it's not psychological. Experts have pretty much proven this, even when they were trying to debunk it. One reason is that in a LOT of cases, more than one person is involved. There are also many cases involving some kind of physical evidence. There have been cases where someone that didn't know the abductee witnessed the abduction (such as the case in NYC studied by Hopkins).

Sleep paralysis has NOT been proven, show us where it has. It's also a lame excuse, and doesn't explain why someone would have these experiences. Especially when they are wide awake and not even in bed. I was wide awake, and even once standing, during my experiences.

And lastly none of these things can explain stuff like missing time, or people being imparted with knowledge they didn't have before the experience. Some people have even become psychic afterwards, but then you probably don't believe in that either.

I don't believe you, because there's nothing in what you're saying that is true. It's your opinion. People who actually study this stuff have a different opinion. Listen to the current show for some of those opinions. And it doesn't explain my experiences, or many others. Who's to say that what I'm seeing (I didn't see anything) isn't psychological? A few psychologists and psychiatrists, that's who. I'm quite normal. I don't suffer from delusions, and I have a high IQ.

John Mack, and other psychologists have the same opinion about abductees. They are normal people, and there is no psychosis involved.

People have been trying to debunk this stuff for a long time, and they always fail. The unfortunate part is no real study of the subject will be done with this attitude.

You have demonstrated that you are a fundamentalist skeptic. You have your mind made up based on zero research. In essence you are saying "it's not real because I don't believe it". At least read a few good books on the subject or listen to the Paracast.

Until you make a sensible comment showing you are anything but a fundamentalist skeptic, I will not respond to any more of your posts. It's a waste of my time. You can't lean anything with a closed mind.

You might be uncomfortable with it, but this is what's going on to many people.
 
skunkape said:
Explain to me how multiple witnesses can see something psychological. I'm not talking about distant lights in the sky. I'm talking about something you can hit with a rock and it ain't human.
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This guy has his mind made up. Just like all the other skeptics, he hasn't read any books on the subject, or probably not even listened to any of the shows. He reads pop physics and science books that deal with the science behind sci-fi.

He bases his ideas on old mainstream scientist like Sagan. Sagan got interested in UFOs when he had several conversations with Jacques Vallee. But right from the start he set out to debunk them, which culminated in the Condon report, which said regardless of what UFOs actually were, did not pose a threat to national security. Yawn.

It bothers some people to think that other people believe in this stuff. They think they have all the answers in their head. Even educated people like Michael Shermer. He seem to think he's a scientist, and makes his determinations after doing zero research on the subject. But he's a psychologist, so therefore any answer he has is psychological, just as Penn Gillette and James Randi think it's a parlor trick.

Our friend here looks up to these people because he thinks they are smart, and they give the safe answers he wants to hear. "Please, oh please, make the boogie man go away!" ;)

I suggest at the very least, he read some books by Jacques Vallee. :D
 
Angel of Ioren said:
I was talking about abduction experiences, not UFOs.
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He was too. He said:

I'm talking about something you can hit with a rock and it ain't human.
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You obviously don't realize that multiple witnesses have seen abductions and beings, and more than one person has been abducted simultaneously. Their stories match up even though they didn't know it happened, and didn't talk about it with each other.

So the psychological explanation has been thoroughly debunked.
 
I wouldn't say I'm a fundamentalist skeptic. If that was the case, I would say that the stuff that David has seen and talked about on the show is garbage, and I don't think he's making anything up. His many shared experiences, such as the one in Florida tells me that there are definite occurrences of high strangeness out there. Unless he has made the whole thing up, which I doubt, that's something that is unexplainable in conventional terms.

I am just skeptical of the whole abduction scenario - I am allowed to have that opinion. That's all it is, an opinion. I like to throw out different ideas and see what happens. I have not said that I am right, although you have told me that I am wrong. I definitely respect that. I'm not providing my opinion to be an asshole or anything like that.

Also, I have experienced sleep paralysis, and it is real and quite frightening. Although you can say I was abducted by aliens and it was not sleep paralysis, if that's what you think.

I really hope that you don't stop posting because I am enjoying this discussion. You are opening my eyes to other ideas, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

I just read your other response DavidRM, and you really have the wrong impression of me. I'll admit that I like some of the stuff that the skeptics have to say, but I have also listened to most of the Paracast episodes, and I listen to Paratopia and Eerie Radio as well.
When I watched the Larry King Episode where Shostak and Nye debated Stan Freidman and James Fox, the person I agreed with most (and by a country mile) was James Fox. His Out of the Blue documentary is FANTASTIC, and it has some of the best evidence of UFOs.
I just don't completely agree with Stan Friedman in that this HAS to be Extra Terrestrials.

I hope that you read this DRM because you really are off in your description of me. Also, I'm really far from being a psychologist. My degree is in Art History...
 
DavidRavenMoon said:
He was too. He said:



You obviously don't realize that multiple witnesses have seen abductions and beings, and more than one person has been abducted simultaneously. Their stories match up even though they didn't know it happened, and didn't talk about it with each other.

So the psychological explanation has been thoroughly debunked.
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I didn't realize that actually, thanks for pointing it out. And yes, there's no way psychology can debunk that - I agree with you on that.
 
Great thread. This part struck me:

can be invisible and follow you around your entire life, and talk to people telepathically, and plant pictures and information in your head
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This is exactly what could happen if our existence is really a computed simulation. Entities with "admin" access to the simulation could do all of those things in your list very easily. But if that is the case, then they could also perfectly cover their tracks too. So why are clues left behind? If screen memories are planted, why are they so easy to reveal?

The fact that we are able to detect any aspect of this at all is probably the most bizarre thing about the UFO / abduction phenomenon. We should be able to plainly observe UFOs without any controversy, or their technical capability for camouflage should be so advanced that we can never see them. Instead we have a semi-detectable "phenomenon" that can't be definitively proven or disproven.

Same goes for abductions. The entities have almost godlike power to enter homes, perform physical exams, plant memories etc. But their ability to hide this activity is mysteriously feeble.

And oh yeah, they have total access to our minds, but they still need to ask us questions about daily life. That's extremely odd. If that's really happening I doubt that the questions are for getting information. More likely the abductees responses are being tested in some way, some kind calibration test.
 
0uterj0in said:
The fact that we are able to detect any aspect of this at all is probably the most bizarre thing about the UFO / abduction phenomenon. We should be able to plainly observe UFOs without any controversy, or their technical capability for camouflage should be so advanced that we can never see them. Instead we have a semi-detectable "phenomenon" that can't be definitively proven or disproven.

Same goes for abductions. The entities have almost godlike power to enter homes, perform physical exams, plant memories etc. But their ability to hide this activity is mysteriously feeble.

And oh yeah, they have total access to our minds, but they still need to ask us questions about daily life. That's extremely odd. If that's really happening I doubt that the questions are for getting information. More likely the abductees responses are being tested in some way, some kind calibration test.
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Well said. This is something that has always bothered me.
Maybe they're using Windows? That would explain the glitches...
 
0uterj0in said:
Great thread. This part struck me:



This is exactly what could happen if our existence is really a computed simulation. Entities with "admin" access to the simulation could do all of those things in your list very easily.
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I had the realization that this could possibly be the case long before seeing 'The Matrix.' It's one of the best explanations for the full range of weirdness that goes on. You can extend that line of thinking to we are a simulation within another simulation ad infinitum. Maybe we're higher-beings playing a game that involves choosing a character, inducing amnesia as to one's true identity, and then emersing into the game for a round. Can you imagine how trippy it would be to wake up into that scenario after death?
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God may be a computer masturbating.
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0uterj0in said:
This is exactly what could happen if our existence is really a computed simulation. Entities with "admin" access to the simulation could do all of those things in your list very easily. But if that is the case, then they could also perfectly cover their tracks too. So why are clues left behind? If screen memories are planted, why are they so easy to reveal?
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Yeah, you have to wonder where the ideas in the Matrix, and Dark City came from?

I don't think it has to be a computer simulation though. My feeling is that what we see as reality, with the linear time line (time's arrow), is only one aspect, and in fact is almost a simulation based on how our brain processes things. We know that matter mostly doesn't exist in solid form, and when it's in a wave state, doesn't exist at all.

So physical reality is only one layer. I suppose that's where multi dimensions would come in. I know it all gets very "new age" sounding, but other aspects of reality could be purely "spiritual", "consciousness" or energy based.

There are some thoughts that we are all "observational" or "consciousness units" for some singular conscious entity. Let's call that entity "God" for the sake of simplicity. I'm not religious like that, but it works here. So then God sees through all our eyes. Everything that is, is what we perceive.

Now take that a step further, and some quantum physicists feel that the very act of observing the Universe brings it into existence. It's one big thought.

That makes these entities even stranger of course. Maybe the term "custodians" is even more apropos when referring to them.

So when people say they aren't real, the real question is what is real?
 
The question now is "Where do we get the cheat codes?"
Oh, yeah...when I say computer, I'm not implying a silicon-chip desk-top unit that just happens to be really awesome. I am implying a system of information-processing that is obviously far beyond any technology we could even conceive of with these puny human brains.
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