And Who Says Ray Doesn't Know What He's Looking At?

[Muadib]

I know this is off topic somewhat, but it's too funny to pass up. After watching the video that Ufology linked in his last post, I took a look at the suggested videos that Youtube presents at the right side of the screen and found this:

So Ray is a suspected Reptilian shapeshifter now? I swear, the internet never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Randall]

So Ray is a suspected Reptilian shapeshifter now? I swear, the internet never ceases to amaze me ...

Awesome !

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Can you tell us any more about Ray's video? I'm really curious about that ! Can we view it anyplace? I found a July 25, 1959 film here but nothing for
December 4, 1980.

Ray claims he has taken 49 analog FILMS (not digital videos--BIG difference) of UFO events since 1956. I have not seen these film clips in their original forms but have seen hundreds of stills that he has selected to analyze for their tell-tale scientific data. FWIW, he has meticulously documented the veracity of these films; i.e., affidavits, notarized witness statements, additional witness reports and in one case, a complete filming of the entire post camera process of unloading the film, developing it and running it on a projector for the first time. J. Allen Hynek and another noted astronomer were in the room for its first showing. This process was filmed by noted Chicago journalist Bill Curtis for a local TV science-news program. I don't give a flying doo-dah what the debunker vulture dudes (who shall remain nameless) think about Ray: I have spent thousands of hours talking with him; I've seen the results of his copious analytical work and (along the way) I've compiled his ufological life-story in his own words for publication at a later date. Yeah, I've been accused of sipping the Ray kool-aid, but it has been w/ the jaundiced eye of an investigative journalist who has interviewed well over a thousand people over the past 20 years. Ray passed my smell test back in 2002 and he doesn't register a blip on my BS meter. I wouldn't have spent the time documenting his claims and life story if I didn't think he was the real deal. The fact that he has been enthusiastically embraced by the fields of ichnology and dinosaur paleontology should tell the debunker world and the rest of us that we should at least PAY ATTENTION to what he has to say. IMHO Ray IS for real and he knows what he is doing. His amateur analytical work and the results of his visual acuity are on permanent display in the Smithsonian Natural History Museum.... hello? If he can do it in one scientific field, doesn't it suggest that MAYBE he just might have something important to contribute to the study of anomalous aerial objects (AAO)s? Dino tracks are his hobby---AAOs are his life passion! We should pay attention to the elders before they are no longer here to guide us...
Talk amongst yourselves... *sigh*
I'm done here....

 

[Randall]

Ray claims he has taken 49 analog FILMS (not digital videos--BIG difference) of UFO events since 1956 ... I don't give a flying doo-dah what the Lance Moody debunker vulture dudes think about Ray ... I wouldn't have spent the time documenting his claims and life story if I didn't think he was the real deal ... We should pay attention to the elders before they are no longer here to guide us ... I'm done here ...

I think your project with Ray sounds fascinating, and someday I hope to see it published. So please don't misunderstand my comments. If you truly value Ray and his work, please consider this seriously. We have to take into consideration how our work is received by everyone, ( "Lance Moody debunker vulture dudes" included ) because it can make all the difference between being received as responsible journalism or pseudoscientific nonsense, not just by debunkers, but also skeptics and scientists. Every bit of ground we can gain is important and it's not hard to avoid the pitfalls, so why invite that kind of criticism? We would only be sabotaging our own efforts. Somehow I don't think that is what we really want to do. We're also having a really good discussion here so please don't go off in a huff. I'm not Lance. His "silly nonesense" comment was uncalled for, and doing the "I'm done for here" thing to me feels like you've downloaded that onto me. Can we not conclude our discussion on a more positive note?

 

[boomerang]

It's just this kind of juxtaposition of Stanford's almost superhuman fossil finding talents with his peekaboo style of handling hard ufo evidence that keeps me tuned in and watching ! It provokes thought in the best traditions of Fort and Vallee.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

It's not hard to avoid the pitfalls when you're aware of them, so why invite that kind of criticism?

What kind of criticism? That Meessen presented papers to mainstream science? I don't see how that is a negative. Over 300 people downloaded his papers... That's a start. Show me one other example of the mainstream scientific community allowing this subject to be presented... OK, Rockefeller-funded Sturrock aside...

I'm not Lance. His "silly nonesense" comment was uncalled for, and doing the "I'm done for here" thing to me feels like you've downloaded that onto me. I don't think I've said anything to deserve that.

Uhh, that comment wasn't meant for you, obviously... In case you weren't aware, Lance and I have gone at it more than a few times about Ray and a couple of other topics. He is a master at passive/aggressive baiting and innuendo. I personally smell the tell-tail whiff of a ringer/provocateur w/ a supported agenda. Hey, I'm probably wrong, but that's my intuitive sense and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong.
BTW: Lance has agreed to appear as a guest on the Paracast, but FYI he needs "a few weeks" to prepare... Dang! A few weeks of time before a casual 2 hour conversation w/ 'ol Gene and little 'ol good-cop me? makes one kinda go "hmmm.." I can be invited on to a show as a last minute substitute guest—at a moments notice... And I don't need to grab a swipe of deodorant or a swig of courage... a "few weeks???" This will be fun! heh-heh

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I remember when I first took a job at a mid-sized C&W radio station in Charleston, SC as a reporter. Within a half hour after I showed up for work the first day, I had to go and cover a plane crash, and ad-lib a story with an interview of an eyewitness within minutes after arriving. That's as spontaneous as one gets.

In any case, Chris, you have the honor of establishing a Question Bank thread for Lance. Ask away, members.

 

[mike]

I don't give a flying doo-dah what the debunker vulture dudes (who shall remain nameless) think about Ray:

Methinks thou doth protesteth too much

I think you do give a doo dah, and thats likely because you've hitched your wagon to his.

And thats fine, But others should be free to make the same choice in the opposite.

His dino stuff isnt in contention, but his UFO stuff clearly is.

If he had told the smithsonian, "i have these really clear fossils of a brand new dino species"
But refused to let them see them or even photos of them. They would do the same thing we are regarding the UFO claims.

Claims require proof.

Claims without proof in regards to dino's would yeild the exact same response from the Smithsonian

Pics or it didnt happen as they say on the internetz

 

[Ron Collins]

Lol....I thought I recognized the name! This is the same gentleman who SCIENTIFICALLY CERTIFIED the Belgian Triangle photo as AUTHENTIC. Virtually everyone involved now admits that this photo is a fake.

Lance, this is a bit disingenuous as there was precisely zero scientific analysis ever conducted on the Petit Rechain photo that proved it a fake. It is, in fact, a real photograph. The only proof of its fakery came from the admission of the hoaxer. So, in my opinion, you cant damn this guy or anyone else because they were wrong about that photo. I think you can probably find other more relevant methods to discredit his scientific support of Rays evidence.

There is a serious misrepresentation here that just because someone is a physicist this fact somehow means they have expertise in all aspects of Physics. This is tantamount to assuming that an aerospace engineer and a structural engineer have the same training and expretise. They do not. Accordingly, they could not perform each others job proficiently just because they both have an Engineering degree. Yes, there is some conceptual carryover, but the inter discipline knowledge gap is still really huge. Stanton Friedman was a nuclear physicist who worked on several secret projects for many different defense contractors. However, he does not have the training to function as an optical physicist or the math skill to work in theoretical physics. This is where I think the support of Rays evidence shows weakness. Not in the inability to discern the falsehood of a single photograph take 20+ years ago.

 

[Randall]

What kind of criticism? That Meessen presented papers to mainstream science? I don't see how that is a negative. Over 300 people downloaded his papers... That's a start. Show me one other example of the mainstream scientific community allowing this subject to be presented... OK, Rockefeller-funded Sturrock aside...Uhh, that comment wasn't meant for you, obviously... In case you weren't aware, Lance and I have gone at it more than a few times about Ray and a couple of other topics. He is a master at passive/aggressive baiting and innuendo. I personally smell the tell-tail whiff of a ringer/provocateur w/ a supported agenda. Hey, I'm probably wrong, but that's my intuitive sense and I'm sticking to it until proven wrong.
BTW: Lance has agreed to appear as a guest on the Paracast, but FYI he needs "a few weeks" to prepare... Dang! A few weeks of time before a casual 2 hour conversation w/ 'ol Gene and little 'ol good-cop me? makes one kinda go "hmmm.." I can be invited on to a show as a last minute substitute guest—at a moments notice... And I don't need to grab a swipe of deodorant or a swig of courage... a "few weeks???" This will be fun! heh-heh

I realized you'd kind of gone off on Lance there while you were responding to me, but the little things add up ( unintentional or otherwise ) so I really appreciate the opportunity to resolve them. Otherwise they hover around in the background like an antique yellow helicopter ... off in the distance ... carrying a cow ... going moooooooo inside your head .

On the issue of criticism, Over 300 scientists may have downloaded Meesen's paper. Of those, I would bet that a healthy portion also recognize the hallmarks of pseudoscience but are still interested anyway. Plus I really doubt I'm the only one that can see it, so they're sure to run into other scientists and skeptics who point it out as well. So why not just avoid it in the first place? No compromise is necessary, just a different style of presentation. On the issue of Lance appearing on the show on short notice, I don't know what his mitigating factors are. Some people are really spooked by going on air. Last time I had the opportunity I was really far behind in processing USI memberships and my book project and felt it would be more responsible to catch up with them before doing a show. However now I realize that catching up is permanent part of my job, so if you guys ever need a fill in, just let me know and I'll get a Skype ( or whatever you use ).

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I realized you'd kind of gone off on Lance there while you were responding to me, but the little things add up ( unintentional or otherwise ) so I really appreciate the opportunity to resolve them. Otherwise they hover around in the background like an antique yellow helicopter ... off in the distance ... carrying a cow ... going moooooooo inside your head .

Umm, I've never considered my weird yellow chopper experience to include a dangling cow moo-ing in my head. I appreciate your humorous aside, but I take what I consider pivotal personal experiences very seriously and I don't appreciate the innuendo.

On the issue of criticism, Over 300 scientists may have downloaded Meesen's paper. Of those, I would bet that a healthy portion also recognize the hallmarks of pseudoscience but are still interested anyway.

Yay! If you're right, at least we're making progress!!

Plus I really doubt I'm the only one that can see it, so they're sure to run into other scientists and skeptics who point it out as well. So why not just avoid it in the first place? No compromise is necessary, just a different style of presentation.

OK, show us what doesn't add up scientifically... what exactly is "it?" The hypothesis? The math? The evidence? The presentation? The gall? I'm confused...

On the issue of Lance appearing on the show on short notice, I don't know what his mitigating factors are. Some people are really spooked by going on air.

Appearing on the Paracast should cause most people to aspire to be ready in a frosty manner... but come on—several weeks of prep time? Hmmm

If you guys ever need a fill in, just let me know and I'll get a Skype ( or whatever you use ).

I can't speak for Gene, but hey, just let us know! You have a standing invitation to appear whenever you feel ready and up to it! We both appreciate all your hard work, your contributions and insight and POV in the forum--we're ready when you are to book a show appearance!

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Let's just have some fun Lance. Maybe our audience might learn a thing or two. Often times when you bounce two extremes against the middle, certain unavoidable truths arise to the benefit of all concerned.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I understood most of the physics (been a long time) and I don't think there is a problem there. What I do think though is that the electro-magnetic theory there is fine but it doesn't actually aim to prove the existence either way of UFOs, nor does it actually seek to.

Does anyone else think the use of 'unconventional' is deliberate due to the connotations of 'UFO' in it's usual meaning?

Whatever the names used, it is encouraging that somewhere was even willing to present this work, I imagine many attempts in the past have not even got that far. I also imagine it is near-impossible to get anyone of standing to look at such work. Even if it all checks out, I don't think academics wish to be associated due to the now very pronounced effect that all the ridicule has done over the years. We know from documents that the CIA and USAF recommended as much back in the day.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Chris said:

"BTW: Lance has agreed to appear as a guest on the Paracast, but FYI he needs "a few weeks" to prepare... Dang! A few weeks of time before a casual 2 hour conversation w/ 'ol Gene and little 'ol good-cop me?"

Gene, I hope you will clear this up.

I told Gene in a PM that I was busy working.

Here is a quote from my PM to Gene:

"I am in heavy production at the moment and don't think I can participate. If we were gonna talk about Otis Carr, I would want to review my materials first and just don't have the time for the next few weeks."

Later I told Gene:

"Man, I would love to debate Chris on these issues but I don't want to go in unprepared. I couldn't do it for a few weeks
Like maybe the second week of December?"

Now, I distinctly remember Chris making a HUGE fuss when I mentioned something he had said in a PM (although I actually told the truth, unlike here). There were lots of forum members who chimed in and I certainly apologized.

I wonder what will happen here?

Lance

OK, it's cleared up. Let's not get out of shape over this, OK?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

"Man, I would love to debate Chris on these issues but I don't want to go in unprepared. I couldn't do it for a few weeks
Like maybe the second week of December?" Now, I distinctly remember Chris making a HUGE fuss when I mentioned something he had said in a PM (although I actually told the truth, unlike here). There were lots of forum members who chimed in and I certainly apologized. I wonder what will happen here?

Gene sent me your response which I paraphrased (accurately) and passed along to our eager forum-ites. Sorry if you have a problem with this... We've mentioned on the forum a number of occasions how certain potential guests have handled their pending invitations... Streiber, Basaigo (pronounced like "Chicago), Farrell, Childress, Coralles, Sanchez, Stanford—there have been a number of hard-to-get guests' invite-processes that have been commented on over the years... You don't get a pass. Sorry if I (uh-hem) appeared to violate any privacy issues you may have Lance. I'd really like to record you tonight---right now! I'm ready... obviously you are not... but that's OK—we're actually pussycats—nice guys w/out disguise.

Take your time, bud. I'm sure you'll make good use of it as we will as well...
I look forward to the spirited, gentlemanly debate. We might all be well-advised to be careful what we wish for!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Lance keeps telling me that he doesn't want it to seem as if he's afraid or reluctant to participate. He still has to focus on his day job, that's all. At least he has a day job. For me, this is my day job folks (well there's another radio show, a tech blog, and some sci-fi novels of course).

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Lance keeps telling me that he doesn't want it to seem as if he's afraid or reluctant to participate. He still has to focus on his day job, that's all. At least he has a day job. For me, this is my day job folks (well there's another radio show, a tech blog, and some sci-fi novels of course).

Yeah, I know the feeling Gene: unfortunately I have a half a dozen "day job" 'cause the Paracast ain't paying any of my bills. If you want to be a player in this morass called "ufoology" you gotta move, groove and make it happen or get out of the way!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

This is why we beg for sales/marketing help. The potential is there with the right people we can make it happen, and Chris won't have to work half a dozen day jobs.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Gene,
Chris is simply mischaracterizing what I said.
I said in MY VERY FIRST EMAIL BACK TO YOU that I was in production and couldn't do anything for a few weeks.
I am a freelancer and often have to work days and nights (as I am doing right now) when I am on a job.
I know that you wanted to set up a controversial show but I'm not going to start out with Chris telling a lie about me using a private email conversation I had with you.

This is looking like a set up and I'm not going to be part of it.

If anyone wants to see the email stream, just PM me.

Lance

Lance, give it a rest. I am fine with the scheduling. We're looking forward to the encounter. The Paracast doesn't set up guests. Well, we did have a game plan with Bill Knell, but he deserved what he got.

 

[Ron Collins]

I feel like this thread should be set to the theme of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. We just need some crazy woman shrieking "3 men enter.... one man leaves"!