Another reason why advanced species should avoid us

[dtp1978]

I was wondering how long it would take before someone blamed this on "religion" as a concept rather than this religion. No one would agree that these witch-doctors are tantamount to the Salvation Army, since they are both motivated by "religion". I remember soon after the 911 attacks hearing atheist talk show guests on Wisconsin Public Radio proclaiming that "religion" was to blame for killing all those Americans. If we could just remove "religion" from human societies, we could finally achieve a Utopia.

I'd be inclined to say this is what primitive superstition and witchcraft do to people. And the Chinese thing just leaves me speechless ...

I would be inclined to say that any extreme in religion is not good for society in general. Whether that extreme is witch-doctors, fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist muslims.

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

I recently watched a very thought-provoking movie called "God on Trial." The movie centers around a fictional event -- a trial of God by a group of prisoners in Auschwitz, some of whom were shortly scheduled to die.

At the heart of the case was God's covenant to the Jewish people; the prisoners were trying God for potential breach of a contract. While it didn't form the basis for the legal cause of action, looming large in the background also was God's act of omission: why wouldn't he intervene to help the victims? Under most Western (and therefore Judeo-Christian) legal doctrines one can't be held responsible for murder for failing to stop a third party. The Germans committed murder, while God only failed to stop them.

In fact, upon further reflection, the prisoners were judging their own religious traditions and teachings which purport to accurately reflect God's position vis-a-vis their own people. What if their elders had mis-stated or misinterpreted God's position? What if this covenant was in fact solely a creation of man? Ultimately the prisoners find God guilty, in my view more so for his act of omission rather than the breach of the covenant.

Should God have intervened? What if he merely created this physical earth, and then stood back to let the chips fall where they may, depending on where human free will takes it? Some philosophize that we are units of consciousness, or chips off the old block (i.e., God), which feed experience and learning into the larger whole so that the larger whole can evolve. Mistakes are made and tragedies occur, while individuals and the whole hopefully learn a lesson and move forward. Ultimately, we as a group (i.e. humanity -- the good, bad and the ugly) control our own fate.

I don't want to offend anyone with this e-mail -- I just think the movie was thought-provoking and many of you would enjoy it. You can see where the themes of the movie relate to the points discussed above in this thread.

If you are interested in watching the movie it can be accessed online via Netflix. It also has been uploaded in its entirety on YouTube. It is well worth the watch.

 

[David Biedny]

Tom FHK,

It was indeed an excellent movie, I watched it on Netflix and was quite impressed with the writing and performances. Thanks for bringing it up.

dB

 

[skunkape]

Some philosophize that we are units of consciousness, or chips off the old block (i.e., God), which feed experience and learning into the larger whole so that the larger whole can evolve.

The more people come to this realization, the better. If we want 'Heaven,' I believe it is our job to build it, here on Earth. No God is going to do it for us. I believe monotheism serves only to separate us from our essential connectedness and relieves us of our responsibilities to better this world with promises of a better one after death.
As this article I just read illustrates, we have a long way to go.
Mexico Cartel Stitches Rivals Face on Soccer Ball - NYTimes.com
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[jpw.in.wi]

I believe monotheism serves only to separate us from our essential connectedness and relieves us of our responsibilities to better this world with promises of a better one after death.

I can only speak a little bit about one monotheistic religion, and what you say here just does not hold any water whatsoever when it comes to authentic Christianity. All you have to do is look at this warning from my religion's founder - Matthew 25:31-46.

You bet I've got responsibilities to better this world, and there's no promise of a better world after this one if I do nothing to reach out to those in all states of need, right here and now. I look at this "Sheep and Goats" illustration as my being given the answers to the mother-of-all final exams, and if I fail it, it's my own damn fault, and I'll have to suffer the consequences.

Claims like the one you made here seem to call for a more nuanced "reality tunnel" in the area of religion.

 

[Red]

I was wondering how long it would take before someone blamed this on "religion" as a concept rather than this religion. No one would agree that these witch-doctors are tantamount to the Salvation Army, since they are both motivated by "religion". I remember soon after the 911 attacks hearing atheist talk show guests on Wisconsin Public Radio proclaiming that "religion" was to blame for killing all those Americans. If we could just remove "religion" from human societies, we could finally achieve a Utopia.

I'd be inclined to say this is what primitive superstition and witchcraft do to people. And the Chinese thing just leaves me speechless ...

Absent any religion, people would still find a reason to beat the crap out of each other. We are not as evolved as we like to think we are.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

I think it important when making such claims against man or god or anything to remember that number one, we are all individuals and must be held responsible for our own actions and that religion as an organization (or is that corporation) is very different from one's own personal spiritual path. I think to lambast whatever religious group you deem necessary as an organization is one thing... but I think just like discussions on disinformation, one must remember that often these groups take a few fundamental truths and pile a whole lot of garbage on top... we should be careful not to close our minds to something due to its association with various B.S. groups more worried about power than the good of the individual because if we did that, well then we'd have to outlaw government right alongside religion.

 

[Red]

I think it important when making such claims against man or god or anything to remember that number one, we are all individuals and must be held responsible for our own actions and that religion as an organization (or is that corporation) is very different from one's own personal spiritual path. I think to lambast whatever religious group you deem necessary as an organization is one thing... but I think just like discussions on disinformation, one must remember that often these groups take a few fundamental truths and pile a whole lot of garbage on top... we should be careful not to close our minds to something due to its association with various B.S. groups more worried about power than the good of the individual because if we did that, well then we'd have to outlaw government right alongside religion.

I think many people enter this world and check their spiritual growth and responsibility towards others at the door. And there exist groups (whether they be political, religious, corporate or whatever) in this world that not only allow this to happen but encourage it.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

I think many people enter this world and check their spiritual growth and responsibility towards others at the door. And there exist groups (whether they be political, religious, corporate or whatever) in this world that not only allow this to happen but encourage it.

Very true... I think about the time the canon was originally selected, we seen a shift from spiritual searching to pious tradition which led to a slow shift in society that basically caused us to become so distracted by the everyday, the mundane, and entertainment, as well as perhaps merely surviving with skewed ideas of what is need and what is want/distraction that we lost our way.

 

[Xylo]

I would be inclined to say that any extreme in religion is not good for society in general. Whether that extreme is witch-doctors, fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist muslims.

I think extreme, exclusive, unquestioning, fundamentalist belief is detrimental to society. Political, economical, religious, or any other ideology tends to leave common sense and decency far behind in pursuit of it's goals.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

Very true... I think about the time the canon was originally selected, we seen a shift from spiritual searching to pious tradition which led to a slow shift in society that basically caused us to become so distracted by the everyday, the mundane, and entertainment, as well as perhaps merely surviving with skewed ideas of what is need and what is want/distraction that we lost our way.

In rereading this post of mine, I can't help but remind myself I am a programmer and simply chuckle at myself.

 

[AdamI]

BBC News - Newsnight - Witch-doctors reveal extent of child sacrifice in Uganda

Need I say more? Humans are savage creatures.

dB

You know, there's been these persistent stories at the fringes and in some conspiracy literature of things like this going on right here in our "advanced" Western society. Things like animal and human sacrifice, ritual child abuse, etc. performed by people in pursuit of wealth and power through so-called "Satanic" means. The claims are that at least a few powerful people are involved in this... people in Washington, Wall St., etc.

I'm skeptical of course, but not totally dismissive. I don't believe there's anything to the superstitions behind this, but I certainly think that these kinds of beliefs can be powerful. I also think it's arrogant-- perhaps even a bit racist-- to think that such superstitions couldn't exist here just because we're white and Western and "advanced."

We certainly know that some of the scumbags in positions of power in our society are capable of doing things this sick. If they're capable of lying us into wars that kill thousands or even millions, they're definitely capable of wallowing in a little bit of literal blood if they thought it was going to help them gain power. Hell, I could even see some of them doing it even if they don't really believe in it just on the off chance it might work.

 

[superjudge]

Political, economical, religious, or any other ideology tends to leave common sense and decency far behind in pursuit of it's goals.

I agree with you, but what if an ideology becomes the common sense of the times? How are we able to step outside the box and notice it for the ideology it is, and raise our consciousness enough (not in the new age sense), as well as the consciousness of those around us to disempower the dominant ideologies of our times that are common sense (unfortunately), yet obviously irrational and not common sense? Is there any way to break out of the ideological circle??

 

[superjudge]

You know, there's been these persistent stories at the fringes and in some conspiracy literature of things like this going on right here in our "advanced" Western society. Things like animal and human sacrifice, ritual child abuse, etc. performed by people in pursuit of wealth and power through so-called "Satanic" means. The claims are that at least a few powerful people are involved in this... people in Washington, Wall St., etc.

I'm skeptical of course, but not totally dismissive. I don't believe there's anything to the superstitions behind this, but I certainly think that these kinds of beliefs can be powerful. I also think it's arrogant-- perhaps even a bit racist-- to think that such superstitions couldn't exist here just because we're white and Western and "advanced."

We certainly know that some of the scumbags in positions of power in our society are capable of doing things this sick. If they're capable of lying us into wars that kill thousands or even millions, they're definitely capable of wallowing in a little bit of literal blood if they thought it was going to help them gain power. Hell, I could even see some of them doing it even if they don't really believe in it just on the off chance it might work.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this was happening in North America and Europe.

"Conspiracy of Silence" is a powerful, disturbing documentary revealing a nationwide child abuse and pedophilia ring that leads to the highest levels of government. Featuring intrepid investigator John DeCamp, a highly decorated Vietnam war veteran and 16-year Nebraska state senator, "Conspiracy of Silence" reveals how rogue elements at all levels of government have been involved in systematic child abuse and pedophilia to feed the base desires of key politicians." - Conspiracy of Silence: Child Abuse


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[AdamI]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this was happening in North America and Europe.

"Conspiracy of Silence" is a powerful, disturbing documentary revealing a nationwide child abuse and pedophilia ring that leads to the highest levels of government. Featuring intrepid investigator John DeCamp, a highly decorated Vietnam war veteran and 16-year Nebraska state senator, "Conspiracy of Silence" reveals how rogue elements at all levels of government have been involved in systematic child abuse and pedophilia to feed the base desires of key politicians." - Conspiracy of Silence: Child Abuse

I've seen that before, and it's really interesting.

On the child abuse / pedophilia front, the best explanation I've heard is that this could be a tactic to entrap and then blackmail powerful people. The idea would be to lure them into a culture of drugs and sex parties, lure them into having sex with minors, tape it, and then you've got them. They're essentially your slaves now, especially if you have the connections to make sure it's all over the TV with a single phone call. In some ways, that kind of compromise is a fate worse than death and a threat more intimidating than mere physical harm.

If this is going on, I think it could explain the degree of lock-step obedience that you sometimes see among powerful political and corporate leaders. It could also explain how very big secrets could be kept.

I know that this sort of thing is popular with really serious organized crime groups and violent street gangs. A new initiate will be required to commit a crime such as murder, rape, etc. to both prove their seriousness and loyalty and give the group something "on them." Basically once you do it you're in it for life.

On this too I'm skeptical but not dismissive. The compromise of leaders with tactics like this sure would explain a lot.

 

[Experiencer7]

Ignorance is a truly terrible thing. We've had at least one such killing here in the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1788452.stm

And people wonder why I prefer animals to humans...

When animals behave as animals., it's nature. When men behave according to our nature., it is open to contention.

 

[trainedobserver]

"Another reason why advanced species should avoid us" ...

You have to ask advanced in what respect? Advances in technology doesn't mean they are advanced ethically or morally. And certainly a non-human society couldn't be expected to share humanities ideals about morals, ethics, philosophy, or anything else for that matter. Just because some species works out how to transverse space, time, or dimensions, doesn't mean they have adopted some 'peace' and 'love' outlook toward other species or themselves. Our moral shortcomings could very well just escape their notice as well as any noble aspirations that we might have. Human beings are animals. End of story. Religions insistence that we are separate or superior to the rest of nature is an absolute falsehood. We are animals driven by impulse and need (real and perceived) and whatever non-human intelligence we meet will most likely be driven by the same basic things. I am prone to think that an advanced species would still have factions within it that deviate from the norm and do things the majority view as vile and loathsome. Until we build "a race of robots" to police us like Gort from the Day the Earth Stood Still (the original of course) humans will be subject to dictates of their animal natures. Does mankind need to fashion a race of robotic gods to impose our own ideals upon us? I'm thinking of Jack Williamson's Humanoids, one of the most frightening concepts in science fiction that I think I have run across. What? I'm rambling? It's the coffee.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

Well....after trainedobserver's little rant I HAVE to say something.

I think the definition of "advanced" is the ability to bake one mean chocolate chip cookie. I bet aliens from Zeta Riticuli (or however you spell it) can do that!

 

[trainedobserver]

Well....after trainedobserver's little rant I HAVE to say something.

I think the definition of "advanced" is the ability to bake one mean chocolate chip cookie. I bet aliens from Zeta Riticuli (or however you spell it) can do that!

Well ... I've never read an account of someone being taken on board a UFO and being shown a kitchenette (or a toilet for that matter). I think they brown bag it. Maybe the whole phenomena is really just the search for the perfect condiment or side dish. Fleets of ships sent throughout space and time to find the perfect thing to add a little "BAM!" to eternally boring alien cooking shows. Apparently various cattle parts (you know 'em, I don't have to name 'em) are tasty little side dishes to augment their boring brown bag lunches.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

We have to remember that everything about aliens is...well...alien. Would we really recognize one of their kitchenettes if we saw one?