Atlantis - Mystery Solved?

[aNorthernSoul]

subjecture????? what is that?

Slang, basically... if I'm not mistaken, the more commonly used word is conjecture.

 

[Kieran]

Just found this article on yahoo it dated today. Atlantis has been found? Location the Caribbean. It might not be Atlantis, but it could be a new discovery maybe a hoax?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1236651/Is-lost-city-atlantis-grainy-images-released-showing-city-like-structures-beneath-caribbean-sea.html

 

[Red]

The article states the archeologists want to remain anonymous. This makes me suspicious. Hopefully it's not some stupid PR stunt for an upcoming movie or some such nonsense.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are still debates raging over the location of Atlantis 1,000 years from now.

 

[Kieran]

The article states the archeologists want to remain anonymous. This makes me suspicious. Hopefully it's not some stupid PR stunt for an upcoming movie or some such nonsense.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are still debates raging over the location of Atlantis 1,000 years from now.

That is the problem RED in a nutshell. Our they might be afraid if revealing too much which would led to the site being overrun by visitors and explorers. I'll willing still to keep an open mind until there is further news if any.

 

[Red]

My other thought is the expedition is funded by the Edgar Cayce people.

 

[Kieran]

My other thought is the expedition is funded by the Edgar Cayce people.

I haven't looked into it too much, but anything is possible. From what I've read about Edgar Cayce non of what he said has taken place, happened our proven.

 

[Red]

I haven't looked into it too much, but anything is possible. From what I've read about Edgar Cayce non of what he said has taken place, happened our proven.

Yeah, but they are still around.

 

[Schuyler]

The article states the archeologists want to remain anonymous. This makes me suspicious. Hopefully it's not some stupid PR stunt for an upcoming movie or some such nonsense.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are still debates raging over the location of Atlantis 1,000 years from now.

That bothered me, too. If they are anonymous that pretty well guarantees they aren't really 'scientists' at all. And then there is the money issue which they need to raise for 'further exploration.' Right.

 

[Tommy Allison]

You guys do realize that there's a movie about a city under the sea coming out in the near future based on the Bioshock Video game right?

My first thought was that this was legit. Then I realized... Bioshock 2 is coming out in February, and the film is in production right now.

 

[Kieran]

That bothered me, too. If they are anonymous that pretty well guarantees they aren't really 'scientists' at all. And then there is the money issue which they need to raise for 'further exploration.' Right.

I'd doubt they would or have any need to raise funds. If what they found was true 'hidden city' under the water.The money would pour in straight away from people looking to gain from it. Wouldn't the sea or river where the discovery was made be under the jurisdiction of some nation anyway?

 

[Red]

I'd doubt they would or have any need to raise funds. If what they found was true 'hidden city' under the water.The money would pour in straight away from people looking to gain from it. Wouldn't the sea or river where the discovery was made be under the jurisdiction of some nation anyway?

It depends. There are areas considered international waters that don't fall under the jurisdiction of any country. A ship in international waters usually falls under the jurisdiction of the country that has regulatory control of the vessel and her crew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters

 

[Tommy Allison]

It would be great if this was the fabled city of the Elder Gods... Ryleh'.

Where Chthulu lies sleeping....

 

[Kevin Daly]

If they won't say who they are, what basis do alleged journalists have for calling them "archaeologists"?
And you'd think that any potential investors would want to know everything so they know they aren't throwing money away. If not, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell them and I believe the widow of a former Nigerian politician would like to discuss a financial matter of some sensitivity...

I'd love something like this to be found (not necessarily Atlantis per se, in the absence of any evidence for a legend having existed outside Plato's brilliant imagination), but one this has a very fishy smell to it.

 

[Red]

If they won't say who they are, what basis do alleged journalists have for calling them "archaeologists"?
And you'd think that any potential investors would want to know everything so they know they aren't throwing money away. If not, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell them and I believe the widow of a former Nigerian politician would like to discuss a financial matter of some sensitivity...

I'd love something like this to be found (not necessarily Atlantis per se, in the absence of any evidence for a legend having existed outside Plato's brilliant imagination), but one this has a very fishy smell to it.

Okay, I did a little digging and I may put this one back in my maybe basket. (And when I put something in my maybe basket, I refrain from any judgements until addtional information is available.)
According to this, it is very difficult for Russian researchers to obtain funding in Russia. http://blogs.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/10/russian-expats.html
Also the Paris Herald now has a English Language version of the story: http://www.heralddeparis.com/got-ruins-undersea-archaeologists-release-new-photos/66899
And then this: http://www.mysterious-america.net/atlantisinsider1.html

On a side note: I don't how reliable this one is, but this report indicates that Zeritzky went back to the underwater ruins off Cuba in October of 2009. http://ufoweek.com/2009/08/15/ancient-underwater-city-with-pyramid-near-cuba/ If true, I would expect a NATGEO special to be out in the near future.

Edited to note: The images found in the Caribbean are different than the images seen off the coast of Africa which have now been discredited. http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200909/3011/Google-quashes-rumours-of-Atlantis-discovery

 

[drsamisaladin]

I am always surprised to find out that most people, even many scholars, do not know that the originator of the Atlantis story, who was the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, clearly states when he tells the story that he is creating a non-historical fable in order to make a philosophical point. Read your Plato and put the modern search for Atlantis to rest...

Dr. Sami Saladin

Pisa, Italy

 

[Schuyler]

I am always surprised to find out that most people, even many scholars, do not know that the originator of the Atlantis story, who was the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, clearly states when he tells the story that he is creating a non-historical fable in order to make a philosophical point. Read your Plato and put the modern search for Atlantis to rest...

Dr. Sami Saladin

I think you miss the point. As far as THIS expedition is concerned, I think it is clearly BS, but 'Atlantis' is more than just a story started by Plato. It's an idea that great civilizations may have existed in the past and are now gone. The word 'Atlantis' is used to describe them as kind of a brand name the same way people will call 'tissues' 'Kleenex' even though the Kleenex brand is trademarked.

Even if a city-state named 'Atlantis' never existed, Santorini still blew up. There are still sunken buildings off the coasts of India and Japan. There are worldwide legends from many cultures about a great flood. Something happened a few thousand years ago, maybe several times and in different places. If we treat all stories and legends as imaginative, we'll never find anything.

Dr. Michael Schuyler
Bainbridge, USA

 

[Astroboy]

"Plato, clearly states when he tells the story that he is creating a non-historical fable in order to make a philosophical point. "

Dr. Sami Saladin

Pisa, Italy

Really? That is news to me. Can you site your source for this statement or quote a passage from Plato that clearly states that he is writing fiction?

Atlantis is probably partially true and partially myth. But I would not write it off completely. Troy was once thought to be a myth untill it was proven to exist. It's downfall and the story of the Trojan War is probably both partially true and fictional.

 

[drsamisaladin]

Dear Dr. Schuyler,

I do not treat all ancient legends as imaginative, only the ones that are explicitly stated to be imaginations by their creators, which is specifically the case with Plato's Atlantis. However, that said, I agree with everything you write in your response. I am only dismayed that so many scholars do not read their Plato. Additionally, for me the "imaginative" may actually contain more "truth" and significance than cold, hard history. I have just returned from a trip to the Sahara near the Libyan border, and indeed I agree that much unexpected happened in the ancient world that does not easily fit into many present historical models.

Dr. Sami Saladin

Pisa, Italy

 

[Schuyler]

Really? That is news to me. Can you site your source for this statement or quote a passage from Plato that clearly states that he is writing fiction?

Good point about Troy. But in terms of Plato, it looks like the good Dr. is correct. Here's just a bit from wikipedia:

As continental drift became more widely accepted during the 1960s, and the increased understanding of plate tectonics demonstrated the impossibility of a lost continent in the geologically recent past,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-28">[29]</sup> most “Lost Continent” theories of Atlantis began to wane in popularity. Instead, the fictional nature of elements of Plato's story became widely emphasized.
Plato scholar Dr. Julia Annas, Regents Professor of Philosophy at the University of Arizona, has had this to say on the matter:

The continuing industry of discovering Atlantis illustrates the dangers of reading Plato. For he is clearly using what has become a standard device of fiction—stressing the historicity of an event (and the discovery of hitherto unknown authorities) as an indication that what follows is fiction. The idea is that we should use the story to examine our ideas of government and power. We have missed the point if instead of thinking about these issues we go off exploring the sea bed. The continuing misunderstanding of Plato as historian here enables us to see why his distrust of imaginative writing is sometimes justified.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-29">[30]</sup>
​

Kenneth Feder points out that Critias's story in the Timaeus provides a major clue. In the dialogue, Critias says, referring to Socrates' hypothetical society:

And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens, the tale which I have just been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon. ...<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-30">[31]</sup>
​

Feder quotes A. E. Taylor, who wrote, "We could not be told much more plainly that the whole narrative of Solon's conversation with the priests and his intention of writing the poem about Atlantis are an invention of Plato's fancy."<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-31">[32]</sup>


-end wiki quote


Here are the two dialogs in full: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html & http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html


They are written as if they were recorded. I don't say anything where Plato says they are fiction, but they read like fiction. Perhaps Plato discussed this outside the dialogs.

 

[Astroboy]

I have no doubt Plato is using the Atlantis story, in particular how it's corruption and abuse of power let to it's eventual destruction, as a means to tell a morality tell. That part I believe is fiction.

My opinion is that it had it's basis on a major historical event. I believe that event is likely the explosion of the volcano at Santorini. There are elements of the story which Plato describes Altantis that fit nicely with the island. There existed a very advanced civilization there according to the archaeological digs. If the port city was built within the ring crater of an existing volcano then the descriptions of the concentric rings construction would also coincide.

If you haven't been to Santorini you owe yourself a nice vacation to see it. It's beautiful just like the postcards. And that explosion must have been MASSIVE base on the size of the remaining crater. Our cruise ship looked rather small inside the crater.