August 21, 2016 — Paul Davids

[mike]

It's this that makes posting on the Paracast Forum often unpleasant

"The courtroom is a crucible. In it, we burn away irrelevancies until we reach the truth, for all time." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Star Trek: TNG .

 

[Tyger]

@mike You want to assert right. You want to have the last word. We have to agree to disagree. I am of the opinion you crossed a line - I don't care what you think about any larger issue. You were crossing a line and someone had to say something. I did. Done. Please do not attempt to bully me into silence with threats of 'nasty'.

You can move on. I do not wish to participate in what you are now starting up with me. Ciao!

 

[mike]

I don't care what you think about any larger issue.

And i dont care about your small world views.
Georges blog has a comments section: by all means blow smoke up his butt there.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

I'm worried about you, Mike. You are starting to remind me of that paragon of maturity, scholarship, civility and good will, Lance "Hold On While I Google That" Moody.

I would say that I'm about to write you off as just another asshole, but not being a moderator, I'd never get away with it.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

George, please try to comprehend the difference between saying something like "As a matter of fact, the Shroud of Turin is a genuine relic of Christ's crucifixion," and "I'm just trying to get you to look at the recent research..." That's not the same thing. At all. Trying to legitimize the former with the latter is just disingenuous.

Similarly, defending your claim to be The Discoverer of the Mary Rose with an informal acknowledgment that you were a minor player in the discovery is dishonest. Falsely claiming that honor is just bullshit. That sort of thing is what sets people like Mike off on holy war. I'd have thought you would have noticed that long ago.

 

[marduk]

@mike This is appalling. Why are you 'going after' a 92 year old man? That he is so clearly able to still coherently counter your smear of his wife is amazing to me (that you would sink so low is astounding as you now represent the Paracast as an administrator on this site) - but I would suggest that @AlanValiant cease communications on this thread. You are not being respected - and you deserve that at least. There can be disagreement but everyone deserves a gentle hand. Such harshness, @mike just comes back to haunt one in one's own emotional life. It's that pesky karma coming to roost, as Alan speaks about.

You know, I'm not so sure about that Tyger.

I mean, facts are facts, and Occam's razor is a thing.

I agree it was mean-spirited. However, this guy has been caught red handed straight out lying time and time again, and just won't quit trying to lie about it.

Instead of whipping out his moderator ban hammer, Mike posted a possible - but insulting - theory about what happened.

I have no interest in insulting the dude. But I'm not sure his opinion is worth a ton of respect either.

Why you guys are coming to his rescue, I have no idea. I mean, I've had dudes come at me with straight out insults and name calling, and nobody said boo. But he's old, I guess, so that means he can say what he wants?

 

[Double Nought Spy]

Mike should have banned him after he busted him. But then he would have had to stop beating this dead horse of a thread. Here is an example of how a professional deals with something as slimy and virulent as Michael Horn and his drooling minions. Those clowns make George look like, well, the teller of tall tales that he is.

A Different Perspective: MUFON, Billy Meier (and Michael Horn) and Me

 

[AlanValiant]

But the free information doesnt stop there, The turin shroud is real because:

The Turin Shroud is in fact genuine. The image was produced on the shroud by a means of spiritual radiation which altered it at the atomic level. This is the reason the carbon dating makes it appear from a much later date. A Course In Spiritual Philosophy explains the reasons for the shroud and the truth behind the life of Jesus

Regarding the formation of the image on the shroud caused by a form of spiritual radiation, consider the evidence:

‘The results show a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,’ the scientists said. The image of the bearded man on the shroud must therefore have been created by ‘some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)’, their report concludes. Turin Shroud 'was created by flash of supernatural light' | Daily Mail Online


Regarding the rejuvenation of the cloth at the atomic level:

In the scientific paper 'Shroud-like coloration of ultraviolet radiation' by Paolo Di Lazzaro, he refers to the 'selective aging' of the Shroud, how the micro fibers that constitute the image are more yellow than the rest of the shroud.

Shroud-like coloration of linen by ultraviolet radiation


When STURP ran tests on the shroud in 1978, they remarked how it is like 'a new, expensive tablecloth'.

Dr. J. Heller of STURP wrote "The Team expected the Shroud to be in a delicate condition. This would normally be the case, since linen cannot survive well in temperate climates, such as in France and Italy. This is especially true to the high level of humidity that exists there, as oxidation, organisms like bacteria and fungi would cause it to decay, become brittle and break down. But, it was not. It was supple, strong and felt almost like a new, expensive tablecloth. Although the linen was covered with mildew spores, there was no evidence of active mildew on it. This is incredible considering the water stains, blood stains and humidity, which should have provided an excellent media for the mildew to grow on. We still have no explanation for this or for its splendid condition".

 

[marduk]

Regarding the formation of the image on the shroud caused by a form of spiritual radiation, consider the evidence:

‘The results show a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,’ the scientists said. The image of the bearded man on the shroud must therefore have been created by ‘some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)’, their report concludes. Turin Shroud 'was created by flash of supernatural light' | Daily Mail Online


Regarding the rejuvenation of the cloth at the atomic level:

In the scientific paper 'Shroud-like coloration of ultraviolet radiation' by Paolo Di Lazzaro, he refers to the 'selective aging' of the Shroud, how the micro fibers that constitute the image are more yellow than the rest of the shroud.

Shroud-like coloration of linen by ultraviolet radiation


When STURP ran tests on the shroud in 1978, they remarked how it is like 'a new, expensive tablecloth'.

Dr. J. Heller of STURP wrote "The Team expected the Shroud to be in a delicate condition. This would normally be the case, since linen cannot survive well in temperate climates, such as in France and Italy. This is especially true to the high level of humidity that exists there, as oxidation, organisms like bacteria and fungi would cause it to decay, become brittle and break down. But, it was not. It was supple, strong and felt almost like a new, expensive tablecloth. Although the linen was covered with mildew spores, there was no evidence of active mildew on it. This is incredible considering the water stains, blood stains and humidity, which should have provided an excellent media for the mildew to grow on. We still have no explanation for this or for its splendid condition".

All of these have been debunked many times, most are up on the wiki page for the shroud for crying out loud.

It's a medieval fake. The church doesn't even claim it's real. Give up.

 

[AlanValiant]

All of these have been debunked many times, most are up on the wiki page for the shroud for crying out loud.

It's a medieval fake. The church doesn't even claim it's real. Give up.

No, none of those points have been debunked. The Wikipedia page refers to these studies, it does not debunk them.

 

[marduk]

No, none of those points have been debunked. The Wikipedia page refers to these studies, it does not debunk them.

Sigh.

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

Ultraviolet radiation[edit]
In December 2011 scientists at Italy's National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Development ENEA deduced from the STURP results that the color of the Shroud image is the result of an accelerated aging process of the linen, similar to the yellowing of the paper of ancient books. They demonstrated that the photochemical reactions caused by exposing linen to ultraviolet light could reproduce the main characteristics of the Shroud image, such as the shallowness of the coloration and the gradient of the color, which are not reproducible by other means. When subsequently illuminated with a UV lamp, the irradiated linen fabrics behaved like the linen of the Shroud. They also determined that UV radiation changes the crystalline structure of cellulose in a similar manner as aging and long-duration background radiation.[197][198]

Paolo Di Lazzaro, the lead researcher, indicated in an e-mail interview that '….it appears unlikely a forger may have done this image with technologies available in the Middle Ages or earlier', but their study does not mean the Shroud image was created by the flash of a miraculous resurrection, contrary to how the story was presented in the media, especially on the Web.[199] Professional skeptic Joe Nickell states that the latest findings are nothing new despite being "dressed up in high-tech tests", and that they don't prove much of anything.[199]

 

[marduk]

While the outside world forms general impressions of Pope Francis, insiders tend to see any new papacy through the prism of their own particular interests.

Liturgical traditionalists, for instance, have already voiced some reservations about Francis’ penchant for informality and setting aside the rules, while the church’s peace-and-justice constituency is almost giddy with enthusiasm.

On Saturday, another camp got its first glimpse of what Francis might mean for their concerns, and their early verdict seems mixed: Shroud of Turin devotees.

At the moment, the famed shroud is on a special televised display organized by Archbishop Cesare Nosiglia of Turin. It’s the ninth such public display of Catholicism's most famous cloth since the beginning of the 19th century.

Though there have been various scientific efforts to date the shroud, certitude has been elusive, and opinion remains divided between those who believe the linen cloth was the actual burial garment of Jesus, and those who believe it’s a pious invention from the Middle Ages.


Pope Francis dispatched a message for the new display in which he referred to the shroud as an “icon of a man scourged and crucified.”

The use of the term “icon” rather than “relic” amounts to the usual Vatican caution, given that the Holy See has never officially pronounced on the shroud’s authenticity, though since Pope Julius II in 1506 it has encouraged devotion to the crucified Christ aroused by the cloth.

 

[AlanValiant]

Sigh.

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

Yes, what you've done there is quote the reference to the studies, thanks for that. The only 'debunking' going on there is a 'professional sceptic', whatever that is, saying the tests don't 'prove anything'. Pretty simple business, isn't it, this debunking lark?

 

[marduk]

Yes, what you've done there is quote the reference to the studies, thanks for that. The only 'debunking' going on there is a 'professional sceptic', whatever that is, saying the tests don't 'prove anything'. Pretty simple business, isn't it, this debunking lark?

That's exactly the problem, and exactly what I said during your original post about the creatinine. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even add to the debate.

When even the Catholic church, who maintains there's a three personalitied dude in the sky controlling our every move, sent thousands of people to the middle east to 'take back Jerusalem in the name of God' (presumably he didn't feel like doing it himself), believes that crackers turn into flesh and wine into blood and you should eat it, all children are born guilty because Adam ate an apple, special water can wash away your sins, and masturbation will send you to a lake of fire forever... actually doesn't believe it's own artefact is real when it believes all that stuff and more...

You really gotta question it's authenticity.

I'm not criticizing Catholics. You just gotta question your logic.

 

[mike]

I'm about to write you off as just another asshole

Well we must each stand by our convictions.

The difference being as i see it, I am challenging someone who is claiming to be the supreme spiritual master of the universe, who is gods agent here on earth, claims to be speaking directly for him and is threatening us with biblical scale destruction if we don't heed his words. Insists as fact the moon has only been in orbit for 10,000 years. That asthma medication is worthless and that past life regression is a better option for a sick kid, and that god joyrides around Bodmin Moor in an Adamski model venusian scout craft.

And you think Im being mean.

So Im an asshole, Im fine with that. Grab yourself a tissue and enjoy your catharsis.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

I think you might be just about ready to take on someone your own size. Whitley Streiber is full of wild and dangerous claims, and he has a following. Instead of constant attacks on some old guy no one has heard of, why not protect us from a real menace? Think of the glory! You'll have to mount up and take the battle to him. Careful though. He's not as nice as George. You just might get your ass kicked, but it's worth the risk. You've outgrown this little pond. Go on, it's your duty.

I'll make some popcorn.

 

[marduk]

I think you might be just about ready to take on someone your own size. Whitley Streiber is full of wild and dangerous claims, and he has a following. Instead of constant attacks on some old guy no one has heard of, why not protect us from a real menace? Think of the glory! You'll have to mount up and take the battle to him. Careful though. He's not as nice as George. You just might get your ass kicked, but it's worth the risk. You've outgrown this little pond. Go on, it's your duty.

I'll make some popcorn.

What's your agenda here, man?

Anything anybody says goes because people might get mad?

 

[Double Nought Spy]

I have no agenda. I just don't like bullies. Especially self-righteous ones who abuse their positions.

 

[marduk]

I have no agenda. I just don't like bullies. Especially self-righteous ones who abuse their positions.

Listen, I'm all for a lively debate and keeping things above the belt but how exactly did mike abuse his position?

He didn't ban the guy. He didn't delete his posts.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

Do you really think you or I would get away with calling anyone here an idiot? I know I wouldn't. Nor should I. Nor should a moderator. Especially a moderator. Remember the recent mess at MUFON? Remember why Ventre's behavior was unacceptable? Because he held a position of authority in the organization.