Aztec (Feb. 28th)

[Ezechiel]

I guess ...but wouldn't they have to deal with far worse being emitted from various stars and other objects while traveling through space? In fact couldn't our own sun whack the earth with far worse than the output of a radar system?

IMHO, Intense high-frequency radio wave is rather unique. It would be understandable if their ships were unprepared and for some quirky reason these waves interfered with the operation of their navigation systems or triggered a dangerous response. I'm sure their craft are built to operate safely outside planetary atmospheres and deal effectively with solar radiation.

Maybe we took them by surprise but there again, hadn't they been paying attention to what we were doing? And also, we shoot them down and they don't recover their craft or crew? They are so concerned with our technological development as to monitor our nuclear sites yet neglect to retrieve technology and biological material we would find "advanced" and no doubt exploit? Doesn't make sense does it? Sounds like a plot for a made for Canadian (ouch) T.V. movie.

IMHO, we did. My assumption is that they were mostly oblivious to us, they probably had other agendas that did not concern us and perhaps have obscure vested interest in our planet. We disrupted their operations now they must adjust to a new environment. Adjusting to that new environment includes monitoring nuclear sites and learning about the processes and sentient beings that cause these changes.

It seems more probable that it was an intentional planting of material (real or 'simulated') by parties unknown for nefarious purposes we can only guess at. But ... that's just another guess of course. It seems to me that true aliens would be truly inscrutable and anything that they would do (or claims made about what they would do) must necessarily be viewed with the utmost suspicion.

Perhaps Michio Kaku's view of intelligent life addresses Aztec or Roswell type events. As our level 0 technology evolves it perhaps pushes against and sometimes conflicts with level 1 technology causing these types of events. In that framework, it makes total sense.

 

[Kieran]

Roswell is undoubtedly the most important UFO case in modern ufology, the reasons are obvious even for a person who is knew to the subject. However i agree with most of the posters who have given their opinion to the thread. Roswell is not offering anything knew in the way of evidence. But the only reason why i think Roswell is held in such regard is, it is the first well documented case of alleged crashing of non human craft, and let us not forget, it has been alleged Alien bodies were recovered at the crash site too.That in itself makes this case more unique to any other case that has happened since 1947.
Another reason why Roswell will never die in the eyes of researchers, and people who are fascinated by this subject is, because it may answer some of the long standing questions that have pillaged ufology since 1947.

What does the American system have that the rest of the world doesn't? Also it may answer this question, If Roswell happened as it has been outlined by researchers, then it is more than probable within the borders of the United States, there is a hand picked group of individuals/ who may have more insight into what this phenomenon is, due to the fact it has recovered non human technology, If Roswell happened Also has this technology been used were possible if not at all to better humanity since 1947, Of course we have to damn sure Roswell was a crashing of alien spacecraft before we can start asking does questions for sure.

I've real doubts Radar was the cause, I Read bit on Roswell and I think the crashing was more than likely caused by a lightening strike to the hull of the craft. It was violent storm by all accounts. We recently has a crashing of French airliner off the coast of Brazil in June of this Year due to this type of phenomenon. That is the most accepted theory at least for why that airliner crashed. It is a freak event doesn't happen often thank good, and could explain why this craft crashed, and we haven't had more such crashes since 1947. I know about Aztec, but that is more debatable than Roswell. It may also explain why we have accounts of this metal been unbreakable, and that the tools of 1947 were not match for this type of metal. Lighting strike is a serious amount of energy and if it were to hit a solid object even a non human solid object the consequences would be disastrous. That is my theory at least for what could have caused this UFO over Roswell to crash.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Roswell is undoubtedly the most important UFO case in modern ufology, the reasons are obvious even for a person who is knew to the subject. However i agree with most of the posters who have given their opinion to the thread. Roswell is not offering anything knew in the way of evidence. But the only reason why i think Roswell is held in such regard is, it is the first well documented case of alleged crashing of non human craft, and let us not forget, it has been alleged Alien bodies were recovered at the crash site too.That in itself makes this case more unique to any other case that has happened since 1947.
Another reason why Roswell will never die in the eyes of researchers, and people who are fascinated by this subject is, because it may answer some of the long standing questions that have pillaged ufology since 1947.

What does the American system have that the rest of the world doesn't? Also it may answer this question, If Roswell happened as it has been outlined by researchers, then it is more than probable within the borders of the United States, there is a hand picked group of individuals/ who may have more insight into what this phenomenon is, due to the fact it has recovered non human technology, If Roswell happened Also has this technology been used were possible if not at all to better humanity since 1947, Of course we have to damn sure Roswell was a crashing of alien spacecraft before we can start asking does questions for sure.

I've real doubts Radar was the cause, I Read bit on Roswell and I think the crashing was more than likely caused by a lightening strike to the hull of the craft. It was violent storm by all accounts. We recently has a crashing of French airliner off the coast of Brazil in June of this Year due to this type of phenomenon. That is the most accepted theory at least for why that airliner crashed. It is a freak event doesn't happen often thank good, and could explain why this craft crashed, and we haven't had more such crashes since 1947. I know about Aztec, but that is more debatable than Roswell. It may also explain why we have accounts of this metal been unbreakable, and that the tools of 1947 were not match for this type of metal. Lighting strike is a serious amount of energy and if it were to hit a solid object even a non human solid object the consequences would be disastrous. That is my theory at least for what could have caused this UFO over Roswell to crash.

Yes Roswell is important in the USA so was AZtec it seems and the many which went unreported around the World. However, I agree with your radar theory that it was not the cause. It most likely electronic weapon experiments such as earlier versions of HAARP , Rockets or natural causes might have been more cause. Mind you a conflict among other groups earth based or not is real possiblty!

Free speech!
blowfish

 

[ZombieOctopus]

Did you really just invoke HAARP in explaining Roswell?

 

[fysisist]

I recently listened to the 9/30/2007 paracast, with Scott Ramsey. In the episode, he talked about the concrete slab and the availability of huge cranes, etc. at that time due to a damn being built in Durango, CO. He talked about an unnamed contact he had who was an AF officer involved in the faking of personnel records of the AF people involved in the recovery so that the AF would have deniability if anyone talked later on. So the new episode sounds like more of the same then? He mentioned in the episode that he hoped to have the book out within about a year so it sounds like that hasn't happened yet, either? I haven't listened to the new episode yet but it sounds like nothing new has come to light.

 

[Kieran]

Yes Roswell is important in the USA so was AZtec it seems and the many which went unreported around the World. However, I agree with your radar theory that it was not the cause. It most likely electronic weapon experiments such as earlier versions of HAARP , Rockets or natural causes might have been more cause. Mind you a conflict among other groups earth based or not is real possiblty!

Free speech!
blowfish

Roswell is the only UFO crash i give some credence to and i believe most of the other stories around the world are bogus. You have lost me in some of your theories blowfish. I have based my theory on something that was actually reported; lot of eyewitnesses reported lighting and bad storms the night before Brazel discovered the wreckage.It is logical explanation based on the information, however every theory that someone has come up with could be completely wrong.

 

[trainedobserver]

IMHO, Intense high-frequency radio wave is rather unique. It would be understandable if their ships were unprepared and for some quirky reason these waves interfered with the operation of their navigation systems or triggered a dangerous response. I'm sure their craft are built to operate safely outside planetary atmospheres and deal effectively with solar radiation..

If I can find the time I'll try to look into this. It's an interesting point.

IMHO, we did. My assumption is that they were mostly oblivious to us, they probably had other agendas that did not concern us and perhaps have obscure vested interest in our planet. .

Well sure, that sounds entirely possible and probable. I think the awareness, or lack there of, that two very different species have of each other is somewhere towards the root of inability to properly understand many aspects of the phenomena and the events surrounding it.

Perhaps Michio Kaku's view of intelligent life addresses Aztec or Roswell type events. As our level 0 technology evolves it perhaps pushes against and sometimes conflicts with level 1 technology causing these types of events. In that framework, it makes total sense.

Well it still doesn't answer many questions (in my mind) that I've raised about these "events" the largest one being why any crashed vehicle or occupants would be left behind. To say they just don't "care" for whatever reason seems to ignore too many other events that suggest a interest our development of weapons and space travel. It just doesn't add up. To say they are incapable of mounting a rescue operation ignores the capabilities the phenomena has displayed that would make any Air Sea Rescue coordinator salivate like Pavlov's dog. I'm not saying that Aztec or any other alleged crash/crash retrieval/ didn't happen. I'm saying I don't know and aliens leaving their hardware and comrades behind for us to study seems highly counterproductive and strategically flawed.

 

[Ezechiel]

the largest one being why any crashed vehicle or occupants would be left behind. To say they just don't "care" for whatever reason seems to ignore too many other events that suggest a interest our development of weapons and space travel. It just doesn't add up. To say they are incapable of mounting a rescue operation ignores the capabilities the phenomena has displayed that would make any Air Sea Rescue coordinator salivate like Pavlov's dog. I'm not saying that Aztec or any other alleged crash/crash retrieval/ didn't happen. I'm saying I don't know and aliens leaving their hardware and comrades behind for us to study seems highly counterproductive and strategically flawed.

Expendability and return on investment comes to mind.

1) The nature of these comrades: we may have a small clue. Are these aliens an artificial form of life flying around in cheap expendable craft ?.

Faced with tremendous distances and billions of star systems to monitor, catalog and exploit.... , economics should dictate the nature and composition of your exploration/exploitation team. I would use artificial life forms as scout workers.

From a type 1,2 or 3 perspective, the earth represents a drop in the bucket... if that lol. IMHO, losing a scout simply triggers a light on their cosmic switch board, more robust craft may be on their way

 

[trainedobserver]

Faced with tremendous distances and billions of star systems to monitor, catalog and exploit.... , economics should dictate the nature and composition of your exploration/exploitation team. I would use artificial life forms as scout workers.

The idea that these things are just machines like our robotic space program is an attractive one. Makes me wonder what is worse though, dealing with an alien intelligence or an alien artificial intelligence?

An interesting and scary sf series (if you can call it that) is The Humaniods by Jack Williamson that deals with the consequences of encountering extremely capable benevolent machines who won't take "no" for an answer.

 

[Ezechiel]

The idea that these things are just machines like our robotic space program is an attractive one. Makes me wonder what is worse though, dealing with an alien intelligence or an alien artificial intelligence?

An interesting and scary sf series (if you can call it that) is The Humaniods by Jack Williamson that deals with the consequences of encountering extremely capable benevolent machines who won't take "no" for an answer.

Robot or not, that's how soldiers are trained... its all about completing the 'mission'. Whatever the mission is and whether it involves humans or not.

In a galactic context, robots (or artificial life forms) that can be replicated into infinity make good sense. (Arthur C. Clarke 2001). What could make this even more interesting is when 2 artificial life forms created by different star systems actually meet

 

[Frank Warren]

Good Day ZO!

I'm so, soooo tired of Roswell and Aztec.

Don't get me wrong, Frank was a great co-host, both him and Gene asked some thoughtful questions and the guest was very knowledgeable...

Thanks for the kind words.

but you can only beat a dead horse so many ways. I really wish the UFO community as a whole would just collectively agree to move on from these cold, dead end cases.

Of course I'm biased; however, I thought that issue was was explained adequately: as long as new information, evidence witnesses etc., are forthcoming, and a definitive conclusion has not been presented--then the research must continue! The a fore mentioned elements continue to surface with both cases.

When Scott said he could spend another 20 or 30 years on Aztec, I wanted to cry.

This has to be put into context: Scott owns two businesses, and is married; he is also a meticulous "hands on researcher" and for those of us that follow this pursuit we all know that it is a very time consuming, slow process in which the researcher has to dawn many hats.

If making a living and or having a career wasn't a factor, the time of course could be shortened substantially!

He hasn't even contributed anything substantial in how ever many decades he's been at it so far, why keep going! Doing a core sample of a slab of concrete that ultimately led to absolutely nothing and showing you can haul a wide load through the area isn't that progressive.

I'm afraid this statement is factually inaccurate. As to the concrete, it is but a component in the preponderance of evidence. AS it was mentioned on the show: before Scott was aware of the slab, he was told about the "need fore it" in regards to the craft retrieval, as told to him by a military witness. He then learned about it's whereabouts and did the lab testing, which verified the proper time-line.

One of the reasons that core samples were taken from the slab, is because naysayers stated that the slab wasn't there in 1948 and it was a well-cap. The reason the research was done regarding the fact a wide-load could be transported through the back roads (as reported) is because the naysayers said it was impossible to get something that big as initially reported by Scully, therefore the story couldn't be true--Scott proved otherwise!

What Scott has done in these two instances is called "good and through research." Same can be said for the issue with Hank Knowlton who said that the Aztec story couldn't be true because he owned the property at the time, and if anything like that happened he obviously would have known about. Henceforth, Scott located the deed and proved to Mr. Knowlton et al that he didn't own it until "years later." Knowlton was both surprised and humbled by the news, and I might add, he reversed his position.

I'm sure he worked really hard on his book and videos and lectures and whatever else he's selling, but wheres the hard evidence that justifies 20-30 more years of investigation? Nothing he said got me even remotely excited and I want to be excited.

The innuendo in your last paragraph suggests that Scott is doing this for money; like most Ufologists, we don't get insulted we just laugh! Scott has spent more of his personal money on research then any other researcher I know, and proceeds from the Aztec video have yet to get to break even. As to lectures: any income from those are copyrighted by the repsective promotor of the event .e., MUFON, UFO Congress etc. AS to the upcoming book: as a rule "UFO books" don't do well overall in contrast to mainstream topics, and although we all hope otherwise the patterns of the past don't offer much promise.

Finally, what was discussed on the show is just a fraction of what the book entails as interested parties will learn when the book comes out. With all that said ZO, if historic cases aren't your cup of tea and you feel that ongoing research into them is a waste of time "why submit yourself to the show in the first place?!"

Respectfully,
Frank Warren

 

[Frank Warren]

Good Day Adam,

I'm not opposed to a debate show as Gene mentions, but I do think that we should leave these cases alone for the most part unless major new information surfaces.

I think that's the right approach. Police departments generally only revive cold cases if something breaks.

I think we can summarize thus:

With Roswell, we have substantial evidence that something unusual crashed and that the government still may be giving us the runaround about what it was. We have some witnesses of varying credibility to the effect that it might have been something truly exotic like an ET spacecraft, but we have no proof.

With Aztec we have less than Roswell. We have some circumstantial evidence that something crashed and was removed from the site, possibly something large and/or heavy. It could have been a "flying wing" or similar secret tech... I recall them mentioning that possibility but never quite coming up with anything to completely dismiss it.

I'm afraid this is incorrect "eyewitnesses testimony" is not "circumstantial--it is "direct evidence" and Scott has uncovered several people (eyewitnesses) that were at the crash site; although "there is" circumstantial, as well as documentary evidence. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever eluded to a "Flying Wing" as to the origin of the Aztec craft.

So yeah, a little more would be ok, but I'd leave these alone unless something breaks.

There is a lot more and it's shattered!

So where should the Paracast go from here? I almost feel like the Paracast has mined the UFO field pretty barren at this point. We know what we know, and don't know what we don't know.

The Paracast has only scratched the surface of Ufology as future shows will bear this out. Until there are conclusions to the UFO mystery et al, then I personally hope Gene AND DAVID will continue to delve into the subject matter both past present.

I've often suggested that attempting to tell "signal from noise" in fields such as conspiracy/parapolitics or other paranormal fields might be worthwhile. A long project of signal-mining in the conspiracy area like you've done with UFOs could really be interesting.

Stay tuned for next week's show with conspiracy Zar, "Jim Marrs.

Cheers,
Frank

 

[ZombieOctopus]

This has to be put into context: Scott owns two businesses, and is married; he is also a meticulous "hands on researcher" and for those of us that follow this pursuit we all know that it is a very time consuming, slow process in which the researcher has to dawn many hats.

If making a living and or having a career wasn't a factor, the time of course could be shortened substantially!

I think I have though; it’s still a very very long time. What homicide investigation lasts decades on end? There’s nothing special about ufology that justifies decades of work. I think maybe ufologists like to believe there is but really it’s no different than any other in design. True he’s only one man working part time but there’s an endless stream of investigators just like him. If you added up all the man hours put into Roswell it’s probably in the millions.

I'm afraid this statement is factually inaccurate.

I just don’t remember seeing his name attached to anything significant regarding Roswell, what has he done that’s fundamentally changed the way we look at the case? I don’t think that’s too much to expect given decades of time. Maybe we have different ideas of significant, maybe in terms of what other people have done within the framework of Roswell he’s done a lot, but not as a general rule.

As to the concrete, it is but a component in the preponderance of evidence.

But it’s not though; a concrete slab could be used for a million and one things. For that to be a true statement it would be have to be something incredibly specific. If you’re looking for a murderer, showing that he has a gun in a place where anyone could have a gun for any reason doesn’t help your case. You need residue on the guy’s hands and you need the bullet to compare to the barrel striations. Just because you can put a crane on it, doesn’t mean a crane was on it.

AS it was mentioned on the show: before Scott was aware of the slab, he was told about the "need fore it" in regards to the craft retrieval, as told to him by a military witness. He then learned about it's whereabouts and did the lab testing, which verified the proper time-line.

That’s obvious to whom ever told him that though, it’s not an exemplary situation when dealing with moving heavy loads. It’s like if your neighbor was shot, the police would be looking for someone who owned a gun. If they don’t know you own a gun, and find out that you do, they don’t go “aha! It all makes sense now!” and arrest you.

The innuendo in your last paragraph suggests that Scott is doing this for money; like most Ufologists, we don't get insulted we just laugh! Scott has spent more of his personal money on research then any other researcher I know, and proceeds from the Aztec video have yet to get to break even. As to lectures: any income from those are copyrighted by the repsective promotor of the event .e., MUFON, UFO Congress etc. AS to the upcoming book: as a rule "UFO books" don't do well overall in contrast to mainstream topics, and although we all hope otherwise the patterns of the past don't offer much promise.

But you can see how that looks right? A case that no one on the outside would consider viable needs another 20 or 30 years, why? Then you see his merchandise and some people would put 1 and 1 together. Ufology has convinced itself that this is normal and it’s just not, no one does this outside of ufology and it turns people off and causes motives to come into question.

Finally, what was discussed on the show is just a fraction of what the book entails as interested parties will learn when the book comes out. With all that said ZO, if historic cases aren't your cup of tea and you feel that ongoing research into them is a waste of time "why submit yourself to the show in the first place?!"

I come to the Paracast for a different take on ufology. Even if I’ve heard that guest speak 10 or 20 other times, the conversation is always different here. That’s just what I’ve come to expect from the Paracast, they force these guys who recite the same talking points to the same sort of interviewer over and over again to come out of their box.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Frank,

You said "With all that said ZO, if historic cases aren't your cup of tea and you feel that ongoing research into them is a waste of time "why submit yourself to the show in the first place?!"

With all due respect, please don't start suggesting that people who don't like delving deeply into ancient UFO cases probably should do themselves a favor and STOP LISTENING TO THE PARACAST.

If that is Gene's view, then I guess some of us could leave, but I sure wouldn't want THAT to be the result of my co-hosting the show (if I was in your position). You do not have to argue with anyone who does not like the guest on an episode you co-hosted. It makes you seem small and petty. Neither Gene nor Dave have done that. Agree to disagree, but if you are going to start suggesting that the listeners STOP LISTENING if they don't agree with you, then you are not doing Gene a favor.

 

[Apocalypto]

I liked this show, and I like hearing about Aztec. Not much more to say. Take care.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Aztec,

Could be the major crash which gain more information rather than Roswell because the small amount of witness and the fact if the UFO craft was removed by lorries (trucks) specially equipped for this as stated by Scott interview on paracast. In addition, the USA & Allied could manage to build a mullberry Harbor to deliver thousands of liters of fuel at Normandy in 1944 anything was possible! Intel has many mirrors just like society!


Free Speech,
blowfish

 

[trainedobserver]

With regards to Roswell. I just listened to the Dr. Leir Paracast where he said he would get some of the material to the guys for testing and was wondering what ever happened to the "Roswell material."

 

[Gene Steinberg]

With regards to Roswell. I just listened to the Dr. Leir Paracast where he said he would get some of the material to the guys for testing and was wondering what ever happened to the "Roswell material."

What did you expect? No, it didn't happen. Maybe we should have followed up with Dr. Leir more deliberately, though, but he sure hasn't contacted us.

 

[trainedobserver]

What did you expect? No, it didn't happen. Maybe we should have followed up with Dr. Leir more deliberately, though, but he sure hasn't contacted us.

That is disappointing. We can turn the same ground over in the Roswell and Aztec stories all we like but if things like this get ignored it seems a waste of time. I'm not saying it was your responsibility to do so, I'm just talking about Ufology in general.

I think that the phenomena or whatever is behind the UFO phenomena is in such control of the information surrounding it that things like the apparent discovery of physical evidence gets squelched and manipulated to neutralize its effect or to produce whatever effect it desires it to have in every case. We seem to be in an information hell of sorts.

I thought you guys treated Dr. Leir with a great deal of respect and kindness b.t.w.

 

[Schuyler]

What homicide investigation lasts decades on end?

I'm not sure how that is relevant, but since you asked, quite a few. The Green River killer took decades to solve. Just recently prosecutors charged a 72 year old man in a wheelchair for murders he committed, apparently, over 30 years ago. Now that DNA testing is workable, many cold case files are being revived and, fwiw, wrongly incarcerated people are being freed.