Bin Laden's role?

[fitzbew88]

I'm saying it's been proposed so many times that the bin Laden audio was forged and the "bin Ladens" in the video tapes are so different (fat/thin, young/old, impossibly alive) that they must be faked....

So you must also believe that all of Marlon Brando's movies are faked.

Seriously, as an individual goes through life their appearance changes. I'm not sure it's reasonable to conclude forgery. (Keep in mind that Al Queda has released the tapes whenever it suited them. And that does not necessarily mean in the order the tapes were created.)

My opinion is that I cannot trust anything that comes out of this White House and so if they say it's really him I'd rather flip a coin than take their word.

What if they say officially that: "We don't have any reason to believe that it's not him."? Remember, the U.S. government gets these tapes at about the same time we do.

It does not sound like you have a good reason to believe they're faked. I don't mean that snarky, it's just an observation.

I am still interested in any logical reason for believing that any of the tapes are faked.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

At least some of the tapes didn't come from the White House, but other countries' websites, news etc. if I remember correctly.

But that's one of the things I've been wondering about, and why the thread. If the tapes are fake, and the Bush admin is involved, why have damaging threats made toward the re-election of Bush? Bin Laden, or the fake, threatened to attack states that had the highest Bush votes. There a mixture of fake and real tapes? If so, why hasn't the real waldo mentioned this?

 

[valiens]

So you must also believe that all of Marlon Brando's movies are faked.

Seriously, as an individual goes through life their appearance changes. I'm not sure it's reasonable to conclude forgery. (Keep in mind that Al Queda has released the tapes whenever it suited them. And that does not necessarily mean in the order the tapes were created.)



What if they say officially that: "We don't have any reason to believe that it's not him."? Remember, the U.S. government gets these tapes at about the same time we do.

It does not sound like you have a good reason to believe they're faked. I don't mean that snarky, it's just an observation.

I am still interested in any logical reason for believing that any of the tapes are faked.

I didn't say I believed it, I said it's been out there for so long I'm shocked no one mentioned it here. But what the heck I'll play along and say, my reason is that I tend to believe this:

"Nov. 2, 2001, 12:00 PST -- On Oct. 31 the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official -- presumably the chief of station. The meeting, held in bin Laden's private suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and last year's attack on the USS Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000 intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in January. Yet on July 14, 2001 he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet, and there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down." (http://www.fromthewilderness.com)

The Bush administration setup or faked or let happen the 9/11 attacks for reasons outlined by The Project For The New American Century and in "The Grand Chessboard" by Zbigniew Brzezinski.

I could be wrong but I lean toward the detonation of the buildings/missile-into-Pentagon line of thinking being a red herring. I think Cheney, et al setup and allowed the attacks to happen via bin Laden. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it was the CIA & the French version of that who invented "jihaad" during the Cold War. They created bin Laden/Al qaeda and we're supposed to believe somewhere along the way bin Laden separated from them and began believing in our war-time religious invention. I don't.

I think we asked him to carry out the attacks using his faithful flock of brainwashed zealots and the towers falling like they did was an unexpected bonus. I wonder if that conversation in the hospital went something like, "Hey, Osama: You can either die here of kidney failure or go out the biggest martyr of all time. Whatta ya say? One more ploy for the road?"

The evidence for this is everywhere. You've probably read it all before.

 

[CapnG]

Seriously, as an individual goes through life their appearance changes. I'm not sure it's reasonable to conclude forgery. (Keep in mind that Al Queda has released the tapes whenever it suited them. And that does not necessarily mean in the order the tapes were created.)

Bone structure does not change, nor do things like relative eye distance, ear and nose structure, etc. When you study life drawing, you learn to look for certain "landmarks" on the body and in particular the head in the pursuit of capturing likeness. You learn to look at the face simultaneously as a cohesive whole and as a collection of parts. I can assure you the two "Bin Ladens" being discussed are most certainly different people.

 

[fitzbew88]

...my reason is that I tend to believe this:

"Nov. 2, 2001, 12:00 PST -- On Oct. 31 the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official -- presumably the chief of station."

Well this story is just not true. The hospital denies it, the CIA denies it. All the sources are anonymous. It just doesn't make sense. Remember, OBL was already a wanted man long before 9/11.

Also, keep in mind that the French had a vested interest in impugning the CIA's credibility --- especially when they began to believe action against Iraq was being considered.

This story is unsubstantiated rumor, and it pains me to see you pushing it forward.

The Bush administration setup or faked or let happen the 9/11 attacks for reasons outlined by The Project For The New American Century and in "The Grand Chessboard" by Zbigniew Brzezinski.

Do you have a reason to believe this is true? Or are you just hoping that it is true?

Of course you don't expect us to believe any book by Brzezinski proposed faking an Islamic terrorist attack on the WTC to justify an invasion of Afghanistan?

I could be wrong but I lean toward the detonation of the buildings/missile-into-Pentagon line of thinking being a red herring. I think Cheney, et al setup and allowed the attacks to happen via bin Laden.

Again..do you have a good reason to believe that this is true? Or are you just hoping that it is true?

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it was the CIA & the French version of that who invented "jihaad" during the Cold War. They created bin Laden/Al qaeda and we're supposed to believe somewhere along the way bin Laden separated from them and began believing in our war-time religious invention. I don't.

Well this is just an outrageous fantasy. The roots of Islamic fundamentalism are well-known and documented and although our government has certainly leveraged it when necessary, we sure didn't "create" it.

I think we asked him to carry out the attacks using his faithful flock of brainwashed zealots and the towers falling like they did was an unexpected bonus. I wonder if that conversation in the hospital went something like, "Hey, Osama: You can either die here of kidney failure or go out the biggest martyr of all time. Whatta ya say? One more ploy for the road?"

Once again, do you have a reason to believe this is true? Or do you just hope that it is true?

The evidence for this is everywhere. You've probably read it all before.

No, as a matter of fact I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that OBL is/was a U.S. government proxy.

Are you basing all this based on a single article in a French daily? Please tell me no. I'm interested in your best evidence, something that will change my mind if I am open-minded enough.

I also note that you haven't provided any reasons to believe any of the tapes are fake. (In other words, not produced by OBL and his followers.) I think you are trying to encompass "more" 9/11-conspiracy theory because you don't really have a good reason to believe any of the tapes are faked and you are just too proud to admit it.

 

[fitzbew88]

I can assure you the two "Bin Ladens" being discussed are most certainly different people.

Then I challenge you...convince me.

I promise to be open-minded.

 

[valiens]

What do you know that's true about 9/11? Anything? Really? Back it up. Show me the evidence. Prove it to me. Can't I use that same line on you?

No, of course it's not one article that leads me to believe anything. I did the homework. I read books, articles (mainstream and not-so-much), watched documentaries, interviewed witnesses, and helped bring together various questioning factions of the Truth Movement before there was such a name. I co-founded "Shadow Government Television" & co-produced "Wat Tyler's Revenge." Here's a couple of samples:

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It's an 8-parter. I'm in one of 'em.

I said, "The evidence for this is everywhere. You've probably read it all before," assuming that you have, in fact, read most of the same stuff I have and formed your own (completely opposite?) picture of what happened. Still, I assume you've looked at the same stuff. Have you not? It's a trick question:

If you have and you concluded that the U.S. played no explicit role in the attacks then clearly nothing I write is going to change that. If you haven't, I'm not going to write a book for you in a thread--there's a lot of material out there just a Google Search away.

Either way, it's a stalemate.

 

[CapnG]

Then I challenge you...convince me.

I promise to be open-minded.

I can't really convince you, you simply have to look for yourself. REALLY look. Pretend he's a Mr. Potatoe head. Ignore his face and simply compare the images side-by-side, feature for feature, like one of those "There are six things different in these two pictures" puzzles. Length and shape of the ear is a good place to start.

 

[fitzbew88]

What do you know that's true about 9/11? Anything? Really? Back it up. Show me the evidence. Prove it to me. Can't I use that same line on you?

No. I am not making outrageous claims that fly in the face of reason and the evidence of my own eyes. I am certainly not propagating fanciful and totally uncorroborated articles in French newspapers that assert that the U.S. government held secret meetings with Osama Bin Ladin in July 2001. It's an outrageous claim that you cannot meaningfully substantiate.

Frankly, my faith in you is shaken.

No, of course it's not one article that leads me to believe anything. I did the homework.

Sir, I must contest that remark. I believe you have not done the homework. I believe you have simply chosen to believe that OBL was a U.S. government proxy because you hope that he is.

I read books, articles (mainstream and not-so-much), watched documentaries, interviewed witnesses, and helped bring together various questioning factions of the Truth Movement before there was such a name. I co-founded "Shadow Government Television" & co-produced "Wat Tyler's Revenge."

Jeremy, this is not helping your case.

I said, "The evidence for this is everywhere. You've probably read it all before," assuming that you have, in fact, read most of the same stuff I have and formed your own (completely opposite?) picture of what happened. Still, I assume you've looked at the same stuff. Have you not?

Jeremy, if I have to read *all* of this to be convinced --- maybe you don't have a case.

You said the evidence is everywhere. I am just asking for you to tell me what evidence changed YOUR mind. I am sure you are not trying to tell me that that OBL was a U.S. government proxy because lots of people believe it....I am afraid you are going to have to do better than that.

If you have and you concluded that the U.S. played no explicit role in the attacks then clearly nothing I write is going to change that.

Not true. I will change my mind if you can give me a REASON to change my mind.

If you haven't, I'm not going to write a book for you in a thread--there's a lot of material out there just a Google Search away.

Jeremy, I am interested in the best reasons YOU have for supporting this outrageous claim. Surely you have some? You are not just propogating this claim because you WISH for it to be true are you?

I have not yet seen a good reason to change my mind.

Either way, it's a stalemate.

Well, it doesn't seem to be a stalemate.

 

[fitzbew88]

I can't really convince you, you simply have to look for yourself. REALLY look. Pretend he's a Mr. Potatoe head. Ignore his face and simply compare the images side-by-side, feature for feature, like one of those "There are six things different in these two pictures" puzzles. Length and shape of the ear is a good place to start.

Understood. Would you at least consider pointing me to the photos that helped you determine this beyond reasonable doubt?

If it's not too much trouble.

 

[valiens]

Fitz:

Sorry but the answer doesn't come in a sound byte. It is a whole group of things that sway me. How old are you? It's midway through 2008. If you're a teen I'll gladly give you some links. if you're an adult and haven't actually examined any of the evidence in the last 7 years and you're still here arguing the point, you're not the only one with shaken faith.

 

[CapnG]

Here's a very low rez version but it's all I could find on a cursoury search:

Now if you watch the videos from which the frames are taken, the differences become glaring but the obvious differences in nose length and breadth are hilighted here. The man on the left has a cranium which would be classified in the mesocephalic range whereas the man on the right is more dolichocephalic (ie longer). That's just two points that never change with age or weight. These are different men.

 

[Daedalus]

I think you are the first person to do an actual scientific analyzation. Me Likey

 

[dad2059]

Hmmm, it looks like Mr. fitzbew88 is a coincidence theorist who believes the government line that OBL is the boogie-man behind the "turrists".

Well this story is just not true. The hospital denies it, the CIA denies it. All the sources are anonymous. It just doesn't make sense. Remember, OBL was already a wanted man long before 9/11.

Also, keep in mind that the French had a vested interest in impugning the CIA's credibility --- especially when they began to believe action against Iraq was being considered.

The CIA, a model of credibility? Since when? The agency that ran The School of the Americas, a known college of death squad du jour? Suurre...

The French didn't have to smear the CIA, people here know that!

And yeah, OBL was wanted long before this "coincidence" of 9/11, the CIA could've picked him off at any time.

But he was a handy "tool" to have for later jobs.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Understood. Would you at least consider pointing me to the photos that helped you determine this beyond reasonable doubt?

If it's not too much trouble.

The fake Bin vids have been touched on here before. I recall Capn being in the thread, but other than that, can't recall the title. If I come upon it I'll link it.

I have seen one vid where I'm open to it being a fake. However, what was being said (if I remember correctly) was inconsequential. A fake could have been used to ad confusion as to Bin's where abouts among other things.

I don't think anyone has come to any possible answers to my inquiry as to why the Bush admin would be involved in having Bin Laden, or fakes make threats against their admin.

Thanks for posting the vids Jeremy, I'll check them out sometime. I'm going to watch Rambo 4 atm lol. Don't laugh too hard at me.

 

[fitzbew88]

Fitz:

Sorry but the answer doesn't come in a sound byte. It is a whole group of things that sway me. How old are you? It's midway through 2008. If you're a teen I'll gladly give you some links. if you're an adult and haven't actually examined any of the evidence in the last 7 years and you're still here arguing the point, you're not the only one with shaken faith.

I've examined enormous amounts of "evidence" that purports to show that 9/11 was staged and/or that OBL was some kind've US government proxy. By no means is this the first thread that deals with this subject! Nor are these forums the only place in which these matters are debated!

Thus far, it has ALL turned out to be untrue or nonsensical or flies in the face of what I can see with my own eyes.

The bizarre thing is that I have deliberately decided to be open-minded about this incredible possibility and asked for folks to share their best evidence. (What changed their mind?) And I am still waiting for anything even approaching the realm of "convincing".

It really seems to me that many people want this outrageous assertion to be true, and they don't care if there is a real reason to believe it.

I can't accept the idea that there is no good evidence, therefore I must accept very large volumes of non-evidence or low-credibility evidence.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Ok, I just noticed the pic CapnGreer posted and that is an image from the vid I am open to being a false Bin Laden.


Ok, now I'm off to watch Rambo. I'll read the rest later.

 

[fitzbew88]

Here's a very low rez version but it's all I could find on a cursoury search:

Now if you watch the videos from which the frames are taken, the differences become glaring but the obvious differences in nose length and breadth are hilighted here. The man on the left has a cranium which would be classified in the mesocephalic range whereas the man on the right is more dolichocephalic (ie longer). That's just two points that never change with age or weight. These are different men.

Thanks.

Do you still happen to have the links to the videos? Or whatever the source is.

I appreciate you expending this extra effort, and I hope I am not pissing you off by asking for this.

 

[valiens]

"Thus far, it has ALL turned out to be untrue or nonsensical or flies in the face of what I can see with my own eyes."

And therein lies the problem. You're asking me to outline for you why I think what I think. And I'm telling you that what I'd outline you've already read before and come to the above conclusion--so what is the point of typing it out?

I'm not going to "win you over." Most likely I don't have any evidence you will find compelling and we will argue and argue and argue and it will amount to nothing. So I'm going to save us both the finger power and not bother. It's not like this is 2002 or 2003. It's 2008. Whatever side you fall on with this issue, I think you/I are there to stay until some new "winning" evidence is introduced that tips the scales.

 

[valiens]

"I don't think anyone has come to any possible answers to my inquiry as to why the Bush admin would be involved in having Bin Laden, or fakes make threats against their admin."

So that we will be scared and Bush can look tough retorting and we'll all rally around our president who is the opposite of the evil guy making threats against him.