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Bin Laden's role?

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I said it before, remember? When you already told me that it didn't mean anything to you?

I re-read all of my posts since number 37 and I don't see where I told you that, but I still apologize if anything I did made you feel bad. (Frankly, I had never heard of PANC until you mentioned it.)

The only thing I am trying to say to you is that you seem to be firmly invested in a "9/11 was staged by the U.S. government"-theory although there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe such an outrageous theory is true. And if you are inclined to accept such an idea without even a modest amount of skepticism, then what other mistakes might you be making? In areas less tangible?

So, like I said earlier, my faith in you is a little shaken.

PNAC laid out what they wanna do with the Middle East and beyond and saids in order to get the American public to go along with it we'd need some sort of Pearl Harbor incident.

Well, no, not exactly.

In Chapter V of Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century, the author addresses the need to transform the American military by making maximum use of technology and research.

On page 52, Pearl Harbor is mentioned:

"...Further, the process of transformation [of the U.S. military], even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions."

Then, there are some examples of high-dollar military programs and how long such programs take. The author ends the paragraph with:

"...Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change – transition and transformation – over the coming decades."

Later in the chapter (page 67), there is a section on transforming the U.S. Navy.

"...Absent a rigorous program of experimentation to investigate the nature of the revolution in military affairs as it applies to war at sea, the Navy might face a future Pearl Harbor – as unprepared for war in the post-carrier era as it was unprepared for war at the dawn of the carrier age."

Like the previous mention of "Pearl Harbor", this reference seems to be innocent. I think the conspiracy theorists are just being misled by the word "transformation" in the first quote. The document is not talking about transforming the Middle East but transforming the U.S. military.

As a matter of fact, I would be surprised if *any* document addressing military preparedness didn't include some mention of Pearl Harbor.

There are also pragmatic reasons for discounting the idea that 9/11 was somehow "inspired" by requirements for a "Pearl Harbor" described in this report. Some of the hijackers were already in the U.S. when this report was written in August 2000. At least one of the hijackers had been in the U.S. since January of that same year.

Miraculously, they got one and by the grace of Allah just when they came to power! Yeah!

There's nothing funny about this.

Keep in mind that if this theory is not true, then you are horrendously libeling many individuals.

If we have a good reason to believe that this theory is true, then we must invest every ounce of energy to see that justice is done. We are not talking about ghosts, or aliens, or UFOs or anything like that. We are talking about genocide and corruption committed by real human beings. If we believe this theory is true, we must pursue justice by every avenue available to us.

If we don't have a good reason to believe the theory has any validity, then we should shut up.

So far, I haven't seen even a snippet of evidence to believe the theory has any validity.
 
So far, I haven't seen even a snippet of evidence to believe the theory has any validity.

Nor will you. Like any good debunker.

I'll be sure to apologize for libel to the good criminals if it turns out I'm wrong.
 
So far, I haven't seen even a snippet of evidence to believe the theory has any validity.

Nor will you. Like any good debunker.

Well, I don't think I'm being stubborn about this.

If I encounter a good reason to believe that our government was in any way complicit (other than blunders) in 9/11, then I promise you I will not deny it.

I'll be sure to apologize for libel to the good criminals if it turns out I'm wrong.

If you think there is even a remote chance you might be wrong, I hope that you will be responsible when it comes to propagating this theory. If you are not sure that you are right, then you are doing a huge injustice to everyone who suffered because of 9/11.
 
OBL was aka Tim Osman and worked for the CIA
9/11 was in fact an inside job. no doubt about it.
time to wake up. look around. we are f#*ked.

check out GHW Bush speech on 9/11 1991
he speaks of a New World Order. strange huh?
 
If you are not sure that you are right, then you are doing a huge injustice to everyone who suffered because of 9/11.

Excuse me, Fitz, but that is the biggest crock of shit I've ever read. First of all, many of the families whose relatives died that day do not believe the government explanation.

Secondly, these are still CRIMINALS we're talking about in this administration, either way.

Thirdly, of course I can't prove the "inside job" theory any more than Bushco can prove "bin Laden did it." If they can they sure haven't yet.

Fourth, it's not blasphemy to question or even suspect your government of wrong-doing. I hardly think any of the families are affected in any way by my writing on this chat board.

And finally, at the very least would you agree that we need a real objective investigation into 9/11 wherein people are held accountable for their actions? Where the big players actually have to testify under oath? Why have we never gotten one? Why are YOU not screaming for one? Know what Congress was investigating while ignoring 9/11?--Hey, how about boxing. That's right, BOXING. It took forever to get even the Kean committee together--and let's not forget that Kissinger was supposed to head that up originally. I mean what a damned joke.

And Thomas Kean...nice guy, right? But he was business partners with khalid bin mahfouz, one of the men named in a lawsuit brought by 600 victims' family members. I know that doesn't make Kean a dirty player, but don't you think maybe that's, at least on paper, a conflict of interest? Don't you think maybe he was chosen because of those kinds of ties, which may have backfired on Bush regardless?

Dude, we can go round and round all day but the fact is there are 70 million other Americans who believe we need a new REAL investigation, according to a 2006 Zogby poll.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060523&articleId=2502

So can we at least agree on having another investigation? No harm in that, right? There have been numerous investigations into the abu ghraib abuses. They threatened to do one on pro wrestling. So you at least can't say you wouldn't want to waste your tax payer dollars on such. Clearly, that's not an issue.

Just as a PS: Do you even live in New York City? I'll bet not or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Most people here who were the victims know the score.
 
Excuse me, Fitz, but that is the biggest crock of shit I've ever read. First of all, many of the families whose relatives died that day do not believe the government explanation.

As you well know, the suffering caused by that terrible day extended well beyond the families of the dead.

My point is: you shouldn't propagate this theory unless you have a good reason to believe that you are right. You shouldn't view this as a recreational exercise, something fun to do just in case you are right.

You are not accusing these PANC guys of being neocon conservative idiots, you are accusing them of being genocidal murderers.

To me, there is a difference.

Secondly, these are still CRIMINALS we're talking about in this administration, either way.

Perhaps. But, fortunately, that doesn't give us carte blanche to make reckless and seemingly unfounded accusations of genocide.

Thirdly, of course I can't prove the "inside job" theory any more than Bushco can prove "bin Laden did it." If they can they sure haven't yet.

I don't know what you mean by "prove", but I find the existing evidence to be pretty overwhelming.

Keep in mind it makes pretty good sense to keep evidence hidden at least until trial proceedings begin.

I am painfully aware that you can't prove your theory, but do you even have a good reason to believe that it is true?

Fourth, it's not blasphemy to question or even suspect your government of wrong-doing.

Of course not. But there must be some intelligence behind it, some semblance of reasoning. And if it is a question or just a suspicion, then it needs to be framed as such.

You are not accusing them of incompetence, or corruption, or bias, or stupidity, or waste --- you are accusing them of genocide. Of killing their own friends and citizens for some yet undescribed reason.

And you don't seem to have a good reason to believe that these accusations have any basis in truth.

I hardly think any of the families are affected in any way by my writing on this chat board.

Like I said earlier, more than just the families suffered because of 9/11.

And finally, at the very least would you agree that we need a real objective investigation into 9/11 wherein people are held accountable for their actions?

To the best of my knowledge, this has already been done.

Yes, I would support a new investigation if a good reason arises for it.

I believe some aspects of the investigation are continuing.

Where the big players actually have to testify under oath?

You are going to have to be a little more specific here. Which players?

Why have we never gotten one? Why are YOU not screaming for one?

An objective investigation? As far as I know, we have already have performed a pretty objective investigation. I am not aware of any bias in it.

Know what Congress was investigating while ignoring 9/11?--Hey, how about boxing. That's right, BOXING. It took forever to get even the Kean committee together--and let's not forget that Kissinger was supposed to head that up originally. I mean what a damned joke.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about here.

And Thomas Kean...nice guy, right? But he was business partners with khalid bin mahfouz, one of the men named in a lawsuit brought by 600 victims' family members. I know that doesn't make Kean a dirty player, but don't you think maybe that's, at least on paper, a conflict of interest? Don't you think maybe he was chosen because of those kinds of ties, which may have backfired on Bush regardless?

The presumption is that since Kean had a business relationship with Saudi Arabia, that he couldn't be objective while chairing the investigation. Considering OBL's connection to the Saudi royals and the fact that most of the hijackers were Saudis, I agree with you, I don't think he was a good choice.

However, we would need to know more about the business relationship itself. A hundred dollars? A million dollars?

At the most Kean could be accused of covering up some type of Saudi complicity; but direct Saudi involvement doesn't seem likely and it surely doesn't help your case any.

I don't know why Kean was chosen. Wikipedia says Kean was nominated by GWB. And approved by Congress?

I am not aware of any accusations that he did not behave correctly; I am not aware of any accusations of bias.

Dude, we can go round and round all day but the fact is there are 70 million other Americans who believe we need a new REAL investigation, according to a 2006 Zogby poll.

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060523&articleId=2502

Ok, good to know.

You know, your allegation is either true or not true and no poll is ever going to change it.

So can we at least agree on having another investigation? No harm in that, right?

Yes, if there is a good reason to for another investigation. So far, I have not seen any reason for a new investigation.
 
You are not accusing them of incompetence, or corruption, or bias, or stupidity, or waste --- you are accusing them of genocide. Of killing their own friends and citizens for some yet undescribed reason.

Just a point of note I'd like to interject, mass murder is NOT genocide, it's mass murder. Genocide is the purposeful extermination of a race or nation. Both involve large scale killings but the difference in purpose is considerable. If there are arguments to be made, let's make sure we use the correct language to frame them.

The presumption is that since Kean had a business relationship with Saudi Arabia, that he couldn't be objective while chairing the investigation. Considering OBL's connection to the Saudi royals and the fact that most of the hijackers were Saudis, I agree with you, I don't think he was a good choice.

Don't forget the Bush family's connections to the Saudi royals and GHWB's previous position as CIA chief. Proof? No. Suspicious? Hell yeah.

For the record I generally (and continue to) believe that the administration was complicit in the 9/11 events (ie the "they let it happen" angle). I do not understand how anyone can read the PNAC document and not find it sinister in it's implication. Change was clearly desired, rapid change is always preferable to slow change and the conditions of that change ("another Pearl Harbour") were detailed.

The ultimate truth of 9/11 is simply this: we will never know.
 
Just a point of note I'd like to interject, mass murder is NOT genocide, it's mass murder. Genocide is the purposeful extermination of a race or nation. Both involve large scale killings but the difference in purpose is considerable. If there are arguments to be made, let's make sure we use the correct language to frame them.

You are not correct. Check New Oxford American Dictionary, Second Edition.

The ultimate truth of 9/11 is simply this: we will never know.

Still, I have not seen any compelling reason to believe 9/11 was not Islamic fundamentalist terror. I have seen Zero evidence of U.S. gov't complicity.

I don't see any reason to believe that the truth is not already known.
 
Still, I have not seen any compelling reason to believe 9/11 was not Islamic fundamentalist terror. I have seen Zero evidence of U.S. gov't complicity.

I don't see any reason to believe that the truth is not already known.

Nor will you, THE END. Just as I said in the very beginning. You'll never consider any of it compelling, so why the charade of open-mindedness? Just to say to yourself, "Well, I gave it a fair chance"?

I have not seen any compelling reason to believe 9/11 was Islamic fundamentalist terror. I have seen zero evidence to this effect. So please, Fitz, before you blindly accept what may be government propaganda, make sure you know that it's true. Otherwise, you do a great disservice to not only the victims of the 9/11 tragedy but our men and women in uniform who believe they are fighting, dying, and being crippled for a just cause.
 
Still, I have not seen any compelling reason to believe 9/11 was not Islamic fundamentalist terror. I have seen Zero evidence of U.S. gov't complicity.

I don't see any reason to believe that the truth is not already known.

Nor will you, THE END. Just as I said in the very beginning. You'll never consider any of it compelling...

Well, we will have to actually see some evidence of government complicity first before we can draw such a conclusion. So far, it seems to be a belief in search of evidence, rationalized by the belief that since the government is involved, we are free to make any outrageous accusations we wish.

I just cannot convince myself that merely because a government is involved, I am no longer required to be honest.

...so why the charade of open-mindedness? Just to say to yourself, "Well, I gave it a fair chance"?

It's doesn't *feel* like a charade. Yes, I am trying to give your theory a fair chance. What's wrong with that?

I have not seen any compelling reason to believe 9/11 was Islamic fundamentalist terror.

Ok, but I am not asking you for compelling reasons to believe that it was Islamic terror. I am asking you for reasons to believe the U.S. government was complicit.

I have seen zero evidence to this effect.

I think I could change your mind, assuming we could agree on definitions of "evidence" and reach some kind've accommodations on who we can trust to be objective.

So please, Fitz, before you blindly accept what may be government propaganda...

Fear not, I shall not blindly accept anything the government asserts. But I won't blindly assume that it is false. I will look at the evidence with my own two eyes and make up my own mind.

I will consider alternate theories (even "fringe" theories), and consider each on the quality of the evidence provided.


..make sure you know that it's true.

What I said was that you should have a good reason to believe that it's true.

Otherwise, you do a great disservice to not only the victims of the 9/11 tragedy but our men and women in uniform who believe they are fighting, dying, and being crippled for a just cause.

Spurious accusations targeting the wrong criminals IS a disservice to all the victims. I have not yet seen any compelling reason to believe the wrong criminals are being pursued.
 
You are not correct. Check New Oxford American Dictionary, Second Edition.

Pfff. The concise Oxford ENGLISH Dictionary states and I quote:

Genocide- n. the deliberate extermination of a race, nation, etc; hence ~al from the Greek Genos (race) +cide.

I am in fact VERY correct and do not bow to your revisionist dictionary.

So there.:p
 
Pfff. The concise Oxford ENGLISH Dictionary states and I quote:

Genocide- n. the deliberate extermination of a race, nation, etc; hence ~al from the Greek Genos (race) +cide.

I am in fact VERY correct and do not bow to your revisionist dictionary.

So there.:p

Ha, ha, ha, well Real Men don't use CONCISE dictionaries!!!

Genocide- n. the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

So double there!

And technically since the attacks targeted Americans any of these definitions is probably ok. Although that last definition has kind've an after-the-fact quality.

Meh.
 
I still say it's revisionist. I mean it's right THERE in the word GENO-CIDE (race-kill). AND mine's the ENGLISH dictionary, ie the mother tongue, wherein "colours" still has it's U!

Linguists these days... lazy bastards...
 
I still say it's revisionist. I mean it's right THERE in the word GENO-CIDE (race-kill). AND mine's the ENGLISH dictionary, ie the mother tongue, wherein "colours" still has it's U!

Linguists these days... lazy bastards...

Well, for what it's worth I promise to be more circumspect when I use the word, in this thread and in life. :D
 
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