Brain and Spiritual experience.

[Kim323]

No, trained, I wouldn't disagree. I can see in my own life recurring patterns good and, well, ahem, not so good, though nothing has remotely approached a prison term, or even an arrest for that matter! I think what means a lot to me is an abiding and unshakeable belief in humanity's intelligence, and I do believe in free will in a very theological way, and I think it by our physical bodies originates in the brain's neurochemistry. I don't mean to criticize your respect for neuroscience by any means, hence I love reading about consciousness. After all, it's who we are. My point above about my belief in humanity's reasoning power is a bit off topic, but I do cringe when it seems to be common belief (not necessarily on your part), that intelligent extraterrestrial beings, if they exist, and some very reputable scientists believe they do not and that we may well be alone in the universe, we would be to them as ants are to us. I think that demeans ants as well as us! An example I've used before is a book edited by Stephen hawking called On the Shoulders of Giants. It's comprised of the ACTUAL, in English translation where necessary of course, works and papers of Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, newton, and others. You actually read their own words, see their own diagrams, drawings, and MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS. You're just stupefied with wonder. I just think free will does exist very much so, though I do agree with much of what you just said in terms of human behavior and psychology. Kim

 

[boomerang]

Would an "advanced" species feel empathy for mankind?

It's interesting to assess human empathy for other species based on perceived levels of their intelligence and self-awareness.

Most thinking people have grappled with what level of species intelligence they are willing to kill or maim without remorse. Most of us seem to draw the line somewhere between say, a chicken and a cat or dog (thank goodness). Most humans will sense some level of ethical dilemma here, but most (like me) will also hypocritically chow down on a juicy hamburger.

A person who feels bad about stomping a scorpion in their bedroom would be a rarity indeed and isn't rooming with me!

I don't like this kind of slippery slope. But nature presents it and our inability to comprehend its meaning is a deficiency on our part.

 

[trainedobserver]

My point above about my belief in humanity's reasoning power is a bit off topic, but I do cringe when it seems to be common belief (not necessarily on your part), that intelligent extraterrestrial beings, if they exist, and some very reputable scientists believe they do not and that we may well be alone in the universe, we would be to them as ants are to us.

I don't know about the magnitude of intelligence being the largest disparity between a terrestrial and extra-terrestrial intelligence. I think it will be more in the nature and expression of that intelligence. You could look at the ant example in that way. There is intelligence expressed in the activity of ants but it is an entirely different kind of intelligence, consciousness, self-awareness, than found in human beings.

 

[Kim323]

I agree, trained, with your point about not so much the difference in magnitude, but in the mode of expression, of an alien intelligence. In fact, in this book I'm re-reading, Civilized Life in the Universe: Scientists on Intelligent Extraterrestrials (edited by George Basalla), the point is made that some scientists think the SETI emphasis on radio communication is futile on the face of it because even intelligent extraterrestrials' evolution doesn't even have to include SCIENCE as we know it to survive and thrive. So the old, well, we can communicate with them by exchanging info about the molecular structure of this or that compound would be hopeless.

And on free will, John searle says that it would be "miraculous if evolution created this incredibly complex, expensive apparatus, the conscious brain, if it made no difference at all.". This in the context of talking about free will, that to him it makes no sense that the mind is "just along for the ride," and just the product of, or rather just the mere BY-product of brain chemistry sparking away. But, you are right that there are other ways, all sorts of nuanced ways, that scientists think about free will.

Boomerang, that point about animal consciousness and the empathy(or not) humans have for other animals depending on their perceived consciousness, is well taken. I have such a soft spot for animals, great and small. One of the reasons I chose ants in my disagreement with that analogy is that I've always been obsessed with, especially, the social insects. As a boy, I raised them all, or tried to, and that included wasps (well nigh impossible), ants (very easy)of different species, termites (some smaller species are very easy, with their flexibility of castes), and my greatest love, beekeeping. The boy who wanted frames and foundation for Christmas! I will steadfastly maintain that honeybees are conscious, that they think, of course that they communicate, and buildvwith a degree of individual and communal foresight the most gorgeous sight in the world, a comb of new comb dripping with that first flow of manzanita honey in late January and February. Those girls are something else. Sorry, got carried away.

Excuse typos and strange capitals and misplaced apostrophes, got this weird program on the iPad that tries to "correct" stuff it disagrees with. Kim

 

[tyder001]

got this weird program on the iPad that tries to "correct" stuff it disagrees with. Kim

I got a sarcastic laugh out of that. It reminded me of some zealots on here that try to beat you down and correct you when they disagree.

Great points by the way. Didn't want to take away from the post.