C. Scott Littleton

[ward]

Wow i had forgotten this interview Don. The Battle of LA, it was a great show from all the way back in February. Having a front row seat like that in 1942 was an amazing tale on the radio to hear. So thanks again Don for this little Gem.

 

[Skymon876]

Hey there ward.

How can skeptics say that a blimp was able to take that much artillery fire

---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

This is Ryan BTW the Dark Matters caller.

 

[ward]

Hey there ward.

How can skeptics say that a blimp was able to take that much artillery fire

---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

This is Ryan BTW the Dark Matters caller.

Hiya Ryan!! Good to see you on these boards finally. Yeah i agree
amazing how this guy had a front row seat and even picked up flak from the beach the next day. Yup wasn't no zeppelin i ever head of.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

It wasn't a blimp they were shooting at - they were shooting at nothing. All it was was the paranoia of WWII.

 

[Decker]

It wasn't a blimp they were shooting at - they were shooting at nothing. All it was was the paranoia of WWII.

Of course! One night all those U.S. Army anti-aircraft artillerymen got bored and decided to liven things up a bit by firing over 1430 rounds of high explosive! Sheesh!, why didn't I or Scott Littleton think of that?

Decker

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Of course! One night all those U.S. Army anti-aircraft artillerymen got bored and decided to liven things up a bit by firing over 1430 rounds of high explosive! Sheesh!, why didn't I or Scott Littleton think of that?

Decker

No problem. I'm glad I could get you think about it that way. It's a lot more plausible than alien invaders that let us shoot at them and then did nothing about it. The incedent was triggered by an actual UFO (not from another planet though) and then the jitters took over because of the worry of an imminent attack on LA.

Here's a quoute from the Air Force that Brian Dunning dug up when he talked about the incedent on his podcast:

From The Army Air Forces in World War II (released in 1983):

A careful study of the evidence suggests that meteorological balloons — known to have been released over Los Angeles — may well have caused the initial alarm. This theory is supported by the fact that anti-aircraft artillery units were officially criticized for having wasted ammunition on targets which moved too slowly to have been airplanes. After the firing started, careful observation was difficult because of drifting smoke from shell bursts. The acting commander of the anti-aircraft artillery brigade in the area testified that he had first been convinced that he had seen fifteen planes in the air, but had quickly decided that he was seeing smoke. Competent correspondents like Ernie Pyle and Bill Henry witnessed the shooting and wrote that they were never able to make out an airplane.

 

[ward]

No problem. I'm glad I could get you think about it that way. It's a lot more plausible than alien invaders that let us shoot at them and then did nothing about it. The incedent was triggered by an actual UFO (not from another planet though) and then the jitters took over because of the worry of an imminent attack on LA.

Here's a quoute from the Air Force that Brian Dunning dug up when he talked about the incedent on his podcast:

From The Army Air Forces in World War II (released in 1983):

A careful study of the evidence suggests that meteorological balloons — known to have been released over Los Angeles — may well have caused the initial alarm. This theory is supported by the fact that anti-aircraft artillery units were officially criticized for having wasted ammunition on targets which moved too slowly to have been airplanes. After the firing started, careful observation was difficult because of drifting smoke from shell bursts. The acting commander of the anti-aircraft artillery brigade in the area testified that he had first been convinced that he had seen fifteen planes in the air, but had quickly decided that he was seeing smoke. Competent correspondents like Ernie Pyle and Bill Henry witnessed the shooting and wrote that they were never able to make out an airplane.

Sorry angel of Iorien you are a moderator but as Paul Kimball would say no one gets any free pass, not even you. First off all you are going to have to say that either C. Scott Littleton the boy and learned man of today PH.D. and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology for Occidental College in Los Angeles, Ca. That he is either not remembering accurately one of the most amazing events or his life or he's lying, there are no other options. So which is it in your opinion?

Also did you even hear the interview? Did you even read C. Scott Littleton book 2500 Strand: Growing up in Hermosa Beach, California, during World War II?

if you did hear the interview and read his book i would give you much more credence on proposing a valid counter argument.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Sorry angel of Iorien you are a moderator but as Paul Kimball would say no one gets any free pass, not even you. First off all you are going to have to say that either C. Scott Littleton the boy and learned man of today PH.D. and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology for Occidental College in Los Angeles, Ca. That he is either not remembering accurately one of the most amazing events or his life or he's lying, there are no other options. So which is it in your opinion?

Also did you even hear the interview? Did you even read C. Scott Littleton book 2500 Strand: Growing up in Hermosa Beach, California, during World War II?

if you did hear the interview and read his book i would give you much more credence on proposing a valid counter argument.

No need to give me a free pass for being a moderator - I haven't banned anyone for having an opposing view to me (I've really only banned spammers). Anyway, no, I haven't listened to the interview or read his book, but I am familiar with the event and have heard several people discuss it.
One interview and book will not change my opinion of something that has no real evidence, apart from a picture of a cloud illuminated by spotlights. What do you say of the people that say thy did not see anything that night? Would you say they are misremembering or lying about it? I doubt he's lying, but the human memory is not the best, especially for an event that happened 70 years ago.

 

[ward]

No need to give me a free pass for being a moderator - I haven't banned anyone for having an opposing view to me (I've really only banned spammers). Anyway, no, I haven't listened to the interview or read his book, but I am familiar with the event and have heard several people discuss it.
One interview and book will not change my opinion of something that has no real evidence, apart from a picture of a cloud illuminated by spotlights. What do you say of the people that say thy did not see anything that night? Would you say they are misremembering or lying about it? I doubt he's lying, but the human memory is not the best, especially for an event that happened 70 years ago.

Wow how about using some common sense here? This man had a front row seat to this incident.

I thought the paracast had honest open minded and interested skeptics. You are simply ignoring problably the closest witness to these event. His mother described the object as looking like a giant bug shape, illuminated by multiple search lights . Please don't be another one of those arm chair researchers that just googles his info, and please listen to the interview for Pete sake its about 2 hours when you get some free time, then come back and add some intelligent informed discourse. This is not asking to much of you unless you really have made up your mind about what this event already.

Please take some time out of your schedule, just don't rip and read from google do a little investigation then come back. I'll make it read easy for you here is the interview.

http://www.dqrm.com/shows/DMR/dmr-32-t.mp3

As for the other witnesses none of them saw this object so close as far as i know, Littleton as a kid and his friend picked up AA flack from the beach where this thing was being shot at that's how close he was to observing the object. He saw a tangible real object, it seemed to not take any damage from the flack.

Come on Moderator take the challenge, spent some free time, back up your arguments after you hear the interview.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Wow how about using some common sense here? This man had a front row seat to this incident.

I thought the paracast had honest open minded and interested skeptics. You are simply ignoring problably the closest witness to these event. His mother described the object as looking like a giant bug shape, illuminated by multiple search lights . Please don't be another one of those arm chair researchers that just googles his info, and please listen to the interview for Pete sake its about 2 hours when you get some free time, then come back and add some intelligent informed discourse. This is not asking to much of you unless you really have made up your mind about what this event already.

Please take some time out of your schedule, just don't rip and read from google do a little investigation then come back. I'll make it read easy for you here is the interview.

http://www.dqrm.com/shows/DMR/dmr-32-t.mp3

As for the other witnesses none of them saw this object so close as far as i know, Littleton as a kid and his friend picked up AA flack from the beach where this thing was being shot at that's how close he was to observing the object. He saw a tangible real object, it seemed to not take any damage from the flack.

Come on Moderator take the challenge, spent some free time, back up your arguments after you hear the interview.

Again I'm being accused of not being open minded just because I don't conclude that this event was an alien invasion. All true skeptics are open minded - we just need real, concrete evidence to be convinced that something like this happened. A video has been posted on the forums that explains this perfectly, you can look it up on youtube (search "open mindedness"). One interview will not change the fact that there is NO evidence that shows this was an alien space-craft coming to Earth for a good time. And let's not bring out the "arm chair researcher" rhetoric, I'm sick of hearing it. I'm sure you wouldn't care if I came to the same conclusion as you. I agree with Brian Dunning's conclusion - you can look it up. People like him do the research so I can read about it or listen to his podcast. You don't have to agree with it.
What do you want me to investigate anyway? You want me to travel from Quebec to LA to ask people if a UFO took AA fire from the army in 1942? Please, don't make me laugh. There's plenty of information, people have done the research, an nothing points to it being an alien space craft. If you want to think that it is, that's totally fine.

No need to call me out or challenge me to anything. I don't think that the event was caused because of an alien invasion. Unless something new comes up that isn't someone's memory from childhood, I can't conclude that it was a spaceship from some other planet. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but for now, I can't say it was a spaceship - sorry.

 

[ward]

Again I'm being accused of not being open minded just because I don't conclude that this event was an alien invasion. All true skeptics are open minded - we just need real, concrete evidence to be convinced that something like this happened. A video has been posted on the forums that explains this perfectly, you can look it up on youtube (search "open mindedness"). One interview will not change the fact that there is NO evidence that shows this was an alien space-craft coming to Earth for a good time. And let's not bring out the "arm chair researcher" rhetoric, I'm sick of hearing it. I'm sure you wouldn't care if I came to the same conclusion as you. I agree with Brian Dunning's conclusion - you can look it up. People like him do the research so I can read about it or listen to his podcast. You don't have to agree with it.
What do you want me to investigate anyway? You want me to travel from Quebec to LA to ask people if a UFO took AA fire from the army in 1942? Please, don't make me laugh. There's plenty of information, people have done the research, an nothing points to it being an alien space craft. If you want to think that it is, that's totally fine.

No need to call me out or challenge me to anything. I don't think that the event was caused because of an alien invasion. Unless something new comes up that isn't someone's memory from childhood, I can't conclude that it was a spaceship from some other planet. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, but for now, I can't say it was a spaceship - sorry.

I never once said it was a space ship or an alien invasion, you jumped to that conclussion.

I let my case rest. If your not even willing to listen to the first hand account of a PH.D. and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, who by his own words said this was the one of the most amazing thing he had ever witnessed, then you really aren't interested into looking into this case.

Asking you to listen to the show is just to much effort for you, ok fine, just makes you appear closed minded and lazy in my opinion.

I'm not going to pick a fight, and I'm done on this subject I've made my rational argument. I do however now know your mindset, that rather then getting a first hand account you'd rather Google sources that say it was something other then the primary witness and his family saw.

'Nuff Said.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I never once said it was a space ship or an alien invasion, you jumped to that conclussion.

I let my case rest. If your not even willing to listen to the first hand account of a PH.D. and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, who by his own words said this was the one of the most amazing thing he had ever witnessed, then you really aren't interested into looking into this case.

Asking you to listen to the show is just to much effort for you, ok fine, just makes you appear closed minded and lazy in my opinion.

I'm not going to pick a fight, and I'm done on this subject I've made my rational argument. I do however now know your mindset, that rather then getting a first hand account you'd rather Google sources that say it was something other then the primary witness and his family saw.

'Nuff Said.

Well then why are you arguing with me if you agree that it wasn't an alien space craft? Is the official explanation from the air force not good enough? I'm not saying that he didn't see anything - Dr. Littleton sounds like an intelligent man and something absolutely happened that night. I'm arguing against the people that think it was something other worldly and that the photo that has been widely circulating shows nothing but spotlights focusing on what has been determined to be nothing but smoke from the AA guns. I have no doubt that all those guns firing was something spectacular to behold. I just don't like that some people think it was some sort of alien space craft.

It looks like we agree that it wasn't aliens - you're the one that called me closed minded as soon as I said that. And again with looking at other people's research on the subject, I'm not going to start calling up first hand witnesses of everything I see mentioned on this forum when I can just look it up on the internet, a wonderful research tool that allows one access to fantastic resources - including scholarly journals.

 

[Skymon876]

Well then why are you arguing with me if you agree that it wasn't an alien space craft? Is the official explanation from the air force not good enough? I'm not saying that he didn't see anything - Dr. Littleton sounds like an intelligent man and something absolutely happened that night. I'm arguing against the people that think it was something other worldly and that the photo that has been widely circulating shows nothing but spotlights focusing on what has been determined to be nothing but smoke from the AA guns. I have no doubt that all those guns firing was something spectacular to behold. I just don't like that some people think it was some sort of alien space craft.

It looks like we agree that it wasn't aliens - you're the one that called me closed minded as soon as I said that. And again with looking at other people's research on the subject, I'm not going to start calling up first hand witnesses of everything I see mentioned on this forum when I can just look it up on the internet, a wonderful research tool that allows one access to fantastic resources - including scholarly journals.

Look real closely Angel look really hard.

If you still cannot see it look closely again and try hard to focus

If you see it but you cannot believe it then look a 3rd time

Opps there is an object there.

I guess they were not shooting at thin air.

:shy:

---------- Post added at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------

Angel your clever theory of "They were shooting at nothing"

HAS BEEN SHOT DOWN

---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

Bruce Maccabee's analysis http://brumac.8k.com/BATTLEOFLA/BOLA1.html

 

[Angel of Ioren]

The photo in question does not show an object unless you wish really hard and tap your feet three times--something many people are very willing to do to make their saucer dreams come true.

Notice how the flak flashes obviously make up much of the supposed "structure" including the wishful dome on the top.

This kind of "evidence" is why laughter is the most reliable and sustainable quality of the whole UFO business.

Lance

But no Lance, the clever theory that they were shooting at nothing was shot down!!
Please keep in mind it's not my theory, but it is the one that makes the most sense to me. To those that don't think so, please tell what you think they were shooting at.

 

[Decker]

Well Gentlemen .. since this is MY FORUM .. (The Best of Dark Matters Radio Forum on The Paracast) .. allow me to jump in here for just a sec ...

U F O .. Angle .. I witnessed .. right here .. that tricky little skeptical trick .. that I have seen the very best of them try to pull.

Philip Klass .. Jim Oberg .. Curtis Peebles .. Mike Shermer .. and all with little ol' me. Ward posts that he really enjoyed the Scott Littleton show and WOW! what an interesting conversation and right away Amigo .. What is some of the first stuff outta you? Why a FREAKEN' alien invasion by God! Nope Amigo ... not one swinging dick here said a word about aliens .. spaceships .. or invasions.

Lots of folks said .. sumpin' was there but sheesh .. don't think it really was any of those sneaky ol' Japanese airplanes... don't think it was one of those ol' Blimps .. Hell .. folks claimed they witnessed anti-aircraft shells hittin' ol what ever it was ...

Can we just say that MAYBE .. notice I did say MAYBE .. it was a U F O...... Member what the Air Force Boys said that stood fer?? Unidentified Flying OBJECT. Lets just say there was a Royal screw-up all the way around that night.

Decker

 

[Paul Kimball]

The photo in question does not show an object unless you wish really hard and tap your feet three times--something many people are very willing to do to make their saucer dreams come true.

Notice how the flak flashes obviously make up much of the supposed "structure" including the wishful dome on the top.

This kind of "evidence" is why laughter is the most reliable and sustainable quality of the whole UFO business.

Lance

Hi Lance,

On this one, you and I are in total agreement. The "LA incident" is one of the most overrated in UFO history, and its inclusion in a discussion of real UFO cases undermines the credibility of truly interesting and unexplained cases, like the 1957 RB47 case, or the 1976 Tehran case.

The thing with LA is that people have to remember the time, and the context. Sadly, that is almost always forgotten or ignored by UFO proponents, who have no knowledge of the time period in question.

In other words, yes, the military was shooting at just about anything that moved in the sky... and a lot of things that didn't.

As for Littleton, no offense, but an 8 year old witness recalling something that happened almost seven decades ago is worthless. Heck, an 8 year old witness recalling something that happened seven days ago is pretty close to worthless.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Skymon876]

YOUR CLEVER THEORY OF A MAGICAL BLIMP that can take oncoming artillery fire is the most laughable thing on the planet.


Paul can you please present your theory on what the above video is showing..

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

Some reports mentioned the possibility of weather balloons

Add fear and Pearl Harbor and you get a rather potent concoction.

I love how mass hysteria is always impossible for UFO believers as they protect their sacred beliefs despite the fact that we have well-documented cases of people collectively seeing things that simply could not have been.

Lance

Unfortunately for you I posted a video of the event.

Now I suggest you back out in full defeat.

---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

what magical balloon can take that much artillery fire??????

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

some reports mentioned the possibility of weather balloons

add fear and pearl harbor and you get a rather potent concoction.

I love how mass hysteria is always impossible for ufo believers as they protect their sacred beliefs despite the fact that we have well-documented cases of people collectively seeing things that simply could not have been.

Lance

your theory of a bullet proof weather balloon!!!! Is making all of us question your capability to make logical observations.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

YOUR CLEVER THEORY OF A MAGICAL BLIMP that can take oncoming artillery fire is the most laughable thing on the planet.


Paul can you please present your theory on what the above video is showing..

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------




Unfortunately for you I posted a video of the event.

Now I suggest you back out in full defeat.

---------- Post added at 08:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

what magical balloon can take that much artillery fire??????

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------




your theory of a bullet proof weather balloon!!!! Is making all of us question your capability to make logical observations.

Now folks lets be nice and I agree with Don theory it was a UFO which means anything

 

[Skymon876]

Hi Paul,

I have been meaning to mention to you that the RB47 case is a really good one--I just reread Roy Craigs' (from the Condon team) account and it is an unexplainable episode. Perhaps that is just because we don't have all the evidence (and are unlikely to ever get it) but it is a cool UFO story.

RYGYWA & Blowfish--do you have the provenance of the motion (?) film you posted. I mean something other than "saw it on YouTube"? Not that it shows anything anyway other than the kinds of blobs that paranormal enthusiasts weave into dragons and ghosts and saucers at the every opportunity.

Lance

I am waiting the details on your "bulletproof balloon" hypothesis.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Hi Paul,

I have been meaning to mention to you that the RB47 case is a really good one--I just reread Roy Craigs' (from the Condon team) account and it is an unexplainable episode. Perhaps that is just because we don't have all the evidence (and are unlikely to ever get it) but it is a cool UFO story.

RYGYWA & Blowfish--do you have the provenance of the motion (?) film you posted. I mean something other than "saw it on YouTube"? Not that it shows anything anyway other than the kinds of blobs that paranormal enthusiasts weave into dragons and ghosts and saucers at the every opportunity.

Lance

Hi Lancemoody,
1.. For one I did not post the youtube film and get your facts straight son 2. ? All I said it was 'reported 'as UFO which means anything! 3. I said I agree with Don theory it a UFO which Unidentified Flying Object which could be a Allied craft , JAPANESE WW2 craft, NAZI craft taken off from a cargo U-Boat, Silver Weather Balloon with armor covering or paper bags etc and like yourself have to rely on 'newspaper ', youtube film and other witness unless you have a time-traveling machine