Can it be that we are alone ? (wow signal aside)

[Wade]

http://gizmodo.com/one-of-the-best-explanations-why-we-havent-found-alien-1784721423

Why we might be ancient aliens

Regarding the later link you can probably listen to a very interesting discussion later on the day as I believe the audio podcast will be available

 

[Wade]

'Alien' Signal Source Reportedly Located (It Wasn't The Vulcans)

 

[victimized]

What about the consideration that ancient occult practices placed alien imagery previously in our atmosphere due to above ground nuclear caused explosions?

Seeing that historical evidence places buildings with stone melt and above ground nuclear explosions as an ancient condition?

If ancient occultism has documentation, which historical review states it has, then ancient occultism also caused irradiation and atmospheric fall out/burning causing the alien presence to manifest.

It would take a long time period and a replacement of cooled atmospheric mass to cause the alien manifested imagery to disappear.

If alien imagery and phenomena disappeared as a human experience and atmospheric cooling allowed a denatured human to evolve, how can you consider an alien to be the Creator? What a load of codswallop.

 

[Wade]

So you're saying it WAS Vulcans after all?

 

[Randall]

Maybe the question of whether we're not alone in the universe is sort of like the question of if a tree falls in the forest. Those who have seen it for themselves know the answer, while those who haven't can only look at the question in terms of statistical analysis. The question is how do we know anyone who claims to have seen it for themselves is telling the truth? Suffice it to say that IMO it doesn't matter if some claims aren't true. It only matters that a few or even one is true, and it just doesn't seem reasonable, given all the observations, to conclude that there's nobody who's seen an alien craft.

 

[Wade]

as for me ufology I'm pretty much game for anything but let me ask you this.When people, even scientists, argue that given the immense vastness of space and the number of planets out there that there has to be intelligent life out there capable of communicating with us...given what we have to work with so far...does this type of thinking not involve a logical fallacy/ wishful thinking ?

 

[technomage]

I think it was Snowden that made a good point, that alien transmissions would likely be encrypted and seem like noise to us anyway. So SETI may have just skimmed over very good transmissions that they didn't realize were alien signals because they were indistinguishable from natural signals.

And of course we can remember Stanton Friedman's point about the Germans concluding the British had no radar because they were looking at frequency ranges 10 times too low.

 

[Randall]

as for me ufology I'm pretty much game for anything but let me ask you this.When people, even scientists, argue that given the immense vastness of space and the number of planets out there that there has to be intelligent life out there capable of communicating with us...given what we have to work with so far...does this type of thinking not involve a logical fallacy/ wishful thinking ?

Saying there "has to be" this or that based on probability alone is in the strictest sense not a certainty, and therefore unless it's meant in the context of emphasizing the nearly incomprehensible numbers, it is still an assumption. Personally, I think that if only one of the many witnesses out there actually has seen an alien craft, that is more of a certainty than playing the numbers game, because when you're standing there watching one fly past, it's no longer hypothetical.

 

[breddell]

The question is how do we know anyone who claims to have seen it for themselves is telling the truth? .

Hi - I've been interested in all the recent news and science discussions recently on this topic (such as the article referenced above). I can agree with this but another major factor is how do we know that someone who claims to have seen one hasn't misidentified something or that there isn't some other explanation.

It seems that the lack of physical evidence and the science that governs life and evolution of the universe seem to give a consistent story.

 

[Randall]

Hi - I've been interested in all the recent news and science discussions recently on this topic (such as the article referenced above). I can agree with this but another major factor is how do we know that someone who claims to have seen one hasn't misidentified something or that there isn't some other explanation.

It seems that the lack of physical evidence and the science that governs life and evolution of the universe seem to give a consistent story.

True. Even if someone is telling the truth, it may be the case that there was some sort of misperception or misidentification, but I don't think it's reasonable to attribute every single case to such. Serious investigators have been trying to do that for decades, without success. That's why it's reasonable to think that some reports are of alien craft. So the logical thing to do is move on to the next set of questions, and I'm not so sure we can be as certain about any of that.

 

[breddell]

True. Even if someone is telling the truth, it may be the case that there was some sort of misperception or misidentification, but I don't think it's reasonable to attribute every single case to such. Serious investigators have been trying to do that for decades, without success. That's why it's reasonable to think that some reports are of alien craft. So the logical thing to do is move on to the next set of questions, and I'm not so sure we can be as certain about any of that.

That is fair and I understand your line of thinking. From a science perspective I wouldn't think it is reasonable to think that some are alien craft until the science tells us it is possible and that we have evidence. The vast majority of sightings are easily explained and just because there may be an unexplained sighting (which of course has no physical evidence), it is a much larger logical leap to jump straight to alien craft (although that could be in the trade-space of answers). And then, at this point, I agree about the question of certainty.

 

[Randall]

That is fair and I understand your line of thinking. From a science perspective I wouldn't think it is reasonable to think that some are alien craft until the science tells us it is possible and that we have evidence.

That's just it. There's nothing unscientific about the possibility of alien craft, or for that matter even interstellar travel, and the numerous witnesses do constitute evidence, because the stimulus response is an accepted scientific fact. Add to that the radar reports and some that are radar/visual, statistical analysis, and decades worth of investigation into thousands of reports, and it does become perfectly reasonable to believe in alien visitation. This is based on critical thinking about the phenomenon, which is an accepted academic line of reasoning that although different from a scientific consensus, is still well within the bounds of reasonable, at least in my informed opinion about the subject.

And let's not forget that scientific opinion hasn't always been correct, and that it is also scientifically unreasonable to have the scientific opinion that alien craft do not exist. The only reasonable stance physical science can take is to withhold judgement pending scientifically valid physical evidence, which is fine. There's not much a physical scientist can do without physical evidence. But in the meantime, that particular lack of evidence doesn't dismiss all the rest. It should give us ( and science ) sufficient reason for further inquiry.

The vast majority of sightings are easily explained and just because there may be an unexplained sighting (which of course has no physical evidence), it is a much larger logical leap to jump straight to alien craft (although that could be in the trade-space of answers). And then, at this point, I agree about the question of certainty.

Actually, there's a clear chain of logic that leads directly to alien craft as the most reasonable explanation, but it's rather lengthy to go into here. But if you hit the link in my signature line, "What Are UFOs" ( best viewed on a full featured browser ). It lays it all out there in more detail than most readers here are probably interested in. Now all that being said, some people's definition of "reasonable" is more liberal than others. Hynek was one of the hard-nosed crowd when he first entered the picture, but after investigating and analyzing hundreds and hundreds of reports and talking to hundreds of witnesses, he finally came to admit that something real is happening.

 

[victimized]

When you do a logical review of life.

Stone evolved from a hot radiated light burning condition, it cooled.

The atmosphere formed from released hot gases that cooled in space.

The 2 reviews support the natural evolution as a status on Earth.

Humans live on Earth as a natural being who choose to do science.

Science is not natural as a lived experience on Earth, it is an introduced and applied human choice to change natural conditions that already supported their life.

What is to question?

You already made statements that a natural life is a non science life. You then do science and call the effect "artificial".

What is to question?

Is there actually something missing from your minds, since you introduced an artificial act to the atmosphere?

Would you know by mind consideration what is missing as you consider information, seeing it is already missing from your ownership.....the natural atmosphere and your natural mind?

Why do humans state.....my life was abducted.....or the ancient review, my life attacked is possessed.....as 2 statements claiming that the UFO/alien condition artificial to natural life has taken/stolen/abducted the natural atmospheric body that you one personally owned, and in the interaction, it manifested an evil image that replaced your once owned natural angelic atmospheric fed back condition?

How obvious is information as a simple review? Why does information have to be technical for it to be accepted, when the use of technical advice was to keep real information secreted from the natural lived life?

 

[technomage]

I think the two most logical explanation categories for alien craft that don't have conventional explanations are:

1. Breakaway/hidden civilization.
2. Extra-terrestrials.

 

[victimized]

I think the two most logical explanation categories for alien craft that don't have conventional explanations are:

1. Breakaway/hidden civilization.
2. Extra-terrestrials.

Science is the logical explanation.

Science is a human introduced natural Earth life change, as a personal choice. Only humans live on Planet Earth as the highest consciousness who by choice consider information about fusion and then change the fusion by building machines...using buildings like stone....pyramids (mountains), temples (radio transmitter design).....occultism itself. Modern designs....build buildings to not allow the natural life to be nuked, unlike past/old occult considerations, as natural life attests by its historical advice....stone melt, civilizations nuked.

Historical evidence places artifacts inside of stone and also coal deep Earth beds.

Modern time review UFO metallic bodies manifest/disappear or fall out.

Nuclear condition, the condition that causes atmospheric fall out.

Occultism, the practice to alter natural fusion...nuclear natural orbitals as a review. Metal comes from stone in the natural fusion.

Occultism, the practice to alter the stone of Earth.....nuclear dust.

Natural nuclear orbitals changed into unnatural artificial signals that manifested to attack its own natural orbital. Artificial orbital attacks natural orbital of the nuclear.

Modern time evidence....huge sink holes open in Earth....metallic objects fall out of sky.

Ancient artifacts along with human artifacts place strange metallic discs embedded in the stone, along with evidence of past evolved human life.

Historical evidence supports the review that human beings applying the changes to the natural fusion of the Earth nuclear attacked themselves.

Manifestation as known is an occult wisdom, awareness. Change the atmospheric condition and unnatural manifestations appear that attack.

Atmosphere = 2 conditions.

Blocks out radiation particles...larger particles of "dust" infiltrating Earth from out of space. Coldness of the outside atmospheric condition causes the heated radiation particles to disintegrate....only falling as dust upon Earth.

Mass also interacts with natural evolved stone to keep it fused.

Occultists alter the natural atmospheric mass.....the outside coldness changes and allows metallic fusion to take place in the atmosphere as the particle.

Particle forms into metallic UFO, as natural stone metal is disintegrated...as is a higher radiating metallic particle. The 2 metals interacting forces the UFO particle to disintegrate...why it disappears, but not before the damage is done to the stone of Earth. Atmospheric mass normally keeping the natural metal fusion in Earth safe, also allows the attack due to its losses, given to the formation of the nuclear fuel as a liquid.

One of the reasons why natural stone loses its fusion.

Old UFO artifact, metallic discs with signals of radiation embedded in the manifestation.

Occultism know that the language of the UFO/alien is a transmitted irradiation formed signal, why the UFO forms the embedding of the language as it manifests unnaturally.

What should be considered by the occult society....metallic discs and cutting.

Irradiation as a self experience and as a witness to nature being attacked as a cutting mechanism outcome. My life irradiated felt like I was being cut.....I saw the black radiation signals manifest, yet I was not actually physically cut.

How much evidence has to be given to an occultist before he agrees that he is very close to having his own life destroyed?

 

[Randall]

I think the two most logical explanation categories for alien craft that don't have conventional explanations are:

1. Breakaway/hidden civilization.
2. Extra-terrestrials.

Maybe we're dealing with both, and something else too, like some kind of intermultiverse technology. I dunno. My pet favorite is the last one, but then again interstellar would be cool too. The whole breakaway theory is a probable cause for some reports, but only in the context of secret military/corporate black projects that go on outside the normal boundaries of our socio-political systems, and those craft I really doubt have tech that's anywhere close to the other two options. The most sophisticated craft in use now that we know of are still using some sort of thrust producing internal combustion for propulsion. I suspect that will change in the next couple of decades.

 

[technomage]

Maybe we're dealing with both, and something else too, like some kind of intermultiverse technology. I dunno. My pet favorite is the last one, but then again interstellar would be cool too. The whole breakaway theory is a probable cause for some reports, but only in the context of secret military/corporate black projects that go on outside the normal boundaries of our socio-political systems, and those craft I really doubt have tech that's anywhere close to the other two options. The most sophisticated craft in use now that we know of are still using some sort of thrust producing internal combustion for propulsion. I suspect that will change in the next couple of decades.

Sure, it could be a combination. I think the work of the Breakaway Civilization people points to the possibility for more exotic possibilities. The good news is that if we're right and it's not something that operates on a completely tricksterish level, we should be able to get more evidence for this over time. On the other hand, the Skinwalker ranch and high strangeness places like that seem to have had every type of paranormal phenomena occur with a high level of tricksterism.

I'm not convinced that we're dealing with a universal phenomenon and while we shouldn't treat each case in a vacuum, we should look at the specifics of each case to determine what is that the likely non-conventional explanation for that particular case, just like we do when we determine the likely conventional explanation for a case.

 

[Randall]

Sure, it could be a combination. I think the work of the Breakaway Civilization people points to the possibility for more exotic possibilities. The good news is that if we're right and it's not something that operates on a completely tricksterish level, we should be able to get more evidence for this over time. On the other hand, the Skinwalker ranch and high strangeness places like that seem to have had every type of paranormal phenomena occur with a high level of tricksterism.

I'm not convinced that we're dealing with a universal phenomenon and while we shouldn't treat each case in a vacuum, we should look at the specifics of each case to determine what is that the likely non-conventional explanation for that particular case, just like we do when we determine the likely conventional explanation for a case.

My best guess on the Skinwalker Ranch situation is that it's a PSYOP training and testing ground. On the breakaway civilization exotic-tech thing, logically, the breakaway group at the point they broke away would have been at the same level of tech as the rest of us, which if we go back to around WW2 involved mostly propeller planes and the first jets and rockets. So conceivably, a breakaway group might be responsible for the ghost rockets.

But since then, consider the people and facilities required for ongoing R & D to get the ultra exotic anti-gravity UFO type propulsion ( or whatever it is ). The best minds out of all WW2 were absorbed into the US Defense Department. Facilities for R & D were built, and the most exotic stuff produced out of that chain of events all the way up to the latest most advanced fighters are still based on jet technology. Sure, modern jet fighters are hugely exotic compared to Spitfires and Sopwith Camels, but they are still nowhere near whatever it is that allows some alien craft to do what they do.

So I'm just wondering what sort of reasoning can get around that without going way too far out there in terms of being reasonable? I mean sure, we could claim that some hidden secret group has also learned how to make Genies in a bottle, but how far are we supposed to stretch things? I'm having trouble seeing it. I've heard the rationale from the guests that have been on the show, but none of it holds water unless one is invested in that particular belief, and if that's going to be the case, then how does that make more sense than the ETH? Maybe you can help me out there? What am I missing?

 

[technomage]

My best guess on the Skinwalker Ranch situation is that it's a PSYOP training and testing ground. On the breakaway civilization exotic-tech thing, logically, the breakaway group at the point they broke away would have been at the same level of tech as the rest of us, which if we go back to around WW2 involved mostly propeller planes and the first jets and rockets. So conceivably, a breakaway group might be responsible for the ghost rockets.

But since then, consider the people and facilities required for ongoing R & D to get the ultra exotic anti-gravity UFO type propulsion ( or whatever it is ). The best minds out of all WW2 were absorbed into the US Defense Department. Facilities for R & D were built, and the most exotic stuff produced out of that chain of events all the way up to the latest most advanced fighters are still based on jet technology. Sure, modern jet fighters are hugely exotic compared to Spitfires and Sopwith Camels, but they are still nowhere near whatever it is that allows some alien craft to do what they do.

So I'm just wondering what sort of reasoning can get around that without going way too far out there in terms of being reasonable? I mean sure, we could claim that some hidden secret group has also learned how to make Genies in a bottle, but how far are we supposed to stretch things? I'm having trouble seeing it. I've heard the rationale from the guests that have been on the show, but none of it holds water unless one is invested in that particular belief, and if that's going to be the case, then how does that make more sense than the ETH? Maybe you can help me out there? What am I missing?

Walter Bosley would argue that Breakaway Civilizations had their start earlier than World War II (in the 19th century) so there was more time for them to develop more advanced technology. I think Richard Dolan would argue that picking up advanced ET technology (among other things) would spur the growth of the Breakaway civilization. Also, Joseph Farrell would point to the hidden system of finance that is needed to finance such huge leaps in technology and I think he would point to earlier advances, but I am not as familiar with his reasoning on where the earlier leaps in technology came from.

I think each of the Breakaway civilization authors present evidence that could lead one to these conclusions, but even they would admit there is speculation involved. I think based on my current reading and very limited knowledge of the subject, that this is reasonable speculation and no less credible than the E.T. Hypothesis. In your reading, you may come to a different conclusion.

 

[Randall]

Walter Bosley would argue that Breakaway Civilizations had their start earlier than World War II (in the 19th century) so there was more time for them to develop more advanced technology. I think Richard Dolan would argue that picking up advanced ET technology (among other things) would spur the growth of the Breakaway civilization. Also, Joseph Farrell would point to the hidden system of finance that is needed to finance such huge leaps in technology and I think he would point to earlier advances, but I am not as familiar with his reasoning on where the earlier leaps in technology came from.

I think each of the Breakaway civilization authors present evidence that could lead one to these conclusions, but even they would admit there is speculation involved. I think based on my current reading and very limited knowledge of the subject, that this is reasonable speculation and no less credible than the E.T. Hypothesis. In your reading, you may come to a different conclusion.

• If a breakaway civilization got started in the 1800s, that put's them in the age of balloons. So now we have a possible explanation for ghost rockets and some dirigibles. But that still leaves out the kind of craft we're talking about.
• Then if we consider that maybe someone reverse engineered one of the craft we are talking about ( an ET craft ), then we're already assuming that the craft we're talking about exists.
• Then if we consider the "hidden finance" angle: A huge pile of cash doesn't automatically mean, "problem solved". Leonardo DaVinci could have been given all the gold in the world and he still couldn't have created a smart phone.
• But lets suppose some company or another independent of the Defense Department did somehow come-up with UFO tech back in the late 1940s. That means that since then, the entire investigative power of every nation on Earth hasn't figured out who they are by now? Is that really reasonable? I don't think so.
• And if they did figure out who they are, obviously that tech would have been commandeered, in which case instead of building F-35s at over $100,000,000 a pop, they'd be building something comparable to UFOs that can fly circles around them. But I don't see Boeing or GE or Lockheed or any foreign government doing that. They're all still building jets and they all still seem to have no idea where these other craft are coming from.

So no matter how it shakes down, although some black-project aircraft have no-doubt been reported as UFOs, those reports don't describe the kind of craft we're really interested in. Those remain a mystery, and breakaway civilization theories, although whimsically entertaining, don't adequately account for them. So what are the alternatives?The ETH is all that's left that makes any sense. Maybe that means they're from space, or maybe it means they're from another universe ( transmultiversal ). Of those two choices, we know our universe exists. We're not sure about any others. That means that of the two choices, interstellar type ET craft remain the most logical candidates at this time.

That is unless I missed something. If so, by all means let's have a closer look