Casting Call for Listener Roundtable Show!

[marduk]

To address the specific point above, I think it's fair to say that with UFOs, we're dealing with something physical rather than purely conceptual. It's not a purely abstract concept for those who have seen one, that's for sure. So comparing them to pure math isn't really a fair analogy. However some of the way-out-there explanations for them that some people come up with do fall into that category e.g. the interdimensional hypothesis. That's where we cross over from what's really going on to the kind of abstract ideas ( and sometimes math ) that you allude to.

I agree - I've said a number of times that I think if you throw a rock at a flying saucer, it would bounce off of it. Meaning, something physical is happening, I think.

I think that good questions have answers. That's a bias I have, and you'd have a hard time pushing me off that position.

If someone asks a question that can't be answered - unless it's some kind of tangential purpose like a koan - I'm not sure that sufficient thought or purpose has been put into the question to begin with.

But that's me, because I'm essentially an empiricist. All the dimensional stuff (and sorry if you're asserting that explanation I don't think you understand what the word means) and the space brother stuff - as well as the contactee stuff for that matter fall into the general category of a fundamental attribution error.

As in, we're assigning meaning to something that has none in that context.

The universe doesn't care what you believe, just like most people don't care what you do as long as it has nothing to do with them.

I suspect UFOs don't care what we believe about them, either.

 

[Randall]

To be fair, he did ask me to hang out a while ago and I said no - was spending a lot of time out east at that time. And very dickishly on my part I forgot about it until this very moment. Sorry man, I'll PM you in the next little bit.

Don't sweat it. We all have priorities and day-to-day lives we've got to attend to. Stuff falls through the cracks for me all the time. We just have to do the best we can and carry on. I do like the idea of putting a more structured podcast series together though, and will probably do that at some point if I can find the right people to participate.

 

[Randall]

I agree - I've said a number of times that I think if you throw a rock at a flying saucer, it would bounce off of it. Meaning, something physical is happening, I think ... The universe doesn't care what you believe, just like most people don't care what you do as long as it has nothing to do with them ...

That was all really great up until this part:

I suspect UFOs don't care what we believe about them, either.

Semantics on the word "care" aside, I actually suspect just the opposite. I think it matters to the aliens what we think because they go out of their way to make sure the public at large doesn't have enough evidence to prove to everyone that they exist, yet they make themselves detectable by our senses and equipment, even though it would seem that they don't have to. This strongly implies that they want to create a psychological impact rather than a physical one. We spend time studying the psychology of other creatures by setting up experiments that minimize physical contact with us while presenting specific stimuli to evoke observable reactions. Maybe this is their way of doing that with us. It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[marduk]

That was all really great up until this part:

Semantics on the word "care" aside, I actually suspect just the opposite. I think it matters to the aliens what we think because they go out of their way to make sure the public at large doesn't have enough evidence to prove to everyone that they exist, yet they make themselves detectable by our senses and equipment, even though it would seem that they don't have to. This strongly implies that they want to create a psychological impact rather than a physical one. We spend time studying the psychology of other creatures. Maybe this is their way of doing that with us. It makes perfect sense to me.

I've thought a lot about that. And I get what you are saying.

I mean, they could just do like the Vulcans in First Contact and just land and say hi. And they don't, and that means something.

But does it?

It means something to us. It doesn't necessarily mean anything to them. It implies that their perceived behaviour tells us about their internal motivations. I'm not sure that's true anymore, and for a very strange reason.

Formally, in psychology, we humans may have a bias towards assigning meaning for someone else's behaviour based on some internal state or ability or motivation for that person. So if someone cuts you off, it's because they're a bad driver or in a hurry or they don't like you.

But if you cut someone off it's a mistake, or their fault, or whatever, as long as it's not really our fault or because we're a bad person or a bad driver. What we do isn't because of our internal ability or motivation, but what others do is. Which clearly can't be right.

I've spent some time playing no mans sky. You cruise around in a practically infinite universe for essentially no good reason. I find myself landing on random planets to mine this thing or that thing, and then leave. Or I'll scan the wildlife if they look interesting or I'm in that mood. Or I'll shoot them because they're there. Or I'll just skim over the surface, see nothing there that interests me, and leave. I rarely engage the local intelligent life, because they're boring and stupid. If they shoot at me, I shoot back or just leave. But that's it, unless they have something I want.

If those virtual aliens were real, my behaviour would look no different to them than UFOs actually behave to us. And it's not because I'm secretive or because I'm trying to uplift them, or trying to play the trickster.

It's because I just don't care about them as long as they don't get in my way, or unless they have something I want.

Hell, most of the time I'm just bored and don't have an agenda at all. I just do random things or play a pure stimulus/response game - as in "oh, what's that, let's go look" or "I'm bored, bye!"

Anyone trying to figure out my strategy would go mental if they assigned any meaning to it.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

...I do like the idea of putting a more structured podcast series together though, and will probably do that at some point if I can find the right people to participate.

Count me in!

 

[Han]

I would gladly help with questions, answers not so much

If you need a Bigfooter/vegetarian/pedant that is?

Also I should warn I have a voice for movies* and a face for radio

*not talkies

 

[Randall]

I've thought a lot about that. And I get what you are saying.

I mean, they could just do like the Vulcans in First Contact and just land and say hi. And they don't, and that means something.

But does it?

It means something to us. It doesn't necessarily mean anything to them. It implies that their perceived behaviour tells us about their internal motivations. I'm not sure that's true anymore, and for a very strange reason.

Formally, in psychology, we humans may have a bias towards assigning meaning for someone else's behaviour based on some internal state or ability or motivation for that person. So if someone cuts you off, it's because they're a bad driver or in a hurry or they don't like you.

But if you cut someone off it's a mistake, or their fault, or whatever, as long as it's not really our fault or because we're a bad person or a bad driver. What we do isn't because of our internal ability or motivation, but what others do is. Which clearly can't be right.

I've spent some time playing no mans sky. You cruise around in a practically infinite universe for essentially no good reason. I find myself landing on random planets to mine this thing or that thing, and then leave. Or I'll scan the wildlife if they look interesting or I'm in that mood. Or I'll shoot them because they're there. Or I'll just skim over the surface, see nothing there that interests me, and leave. I rarely engage the local intelligent life, because they're boring and stupid. If they shoot at me, I shoot back or just leave. But that's it, unless they have something I want.

If those virtual aliens were real, my behaviour would look no different to them than UFOs actually behave to us. And it's not because I'm secretive or because I'm trying to uplift them, or trying to play the trickster.

It's because I just don't care about them as long as they don't get in my way, or unless they have something I want.

Hell, most of the time I'm just bored and don't have an agenda at all. I just do random things or play a pure stimulus/response game - as in "oh, what's that, let's go look" or "I'm bored, bye!"

Anyone trying to figure out my strategy would go mental if they assigned any meaning to it.

I must admit that what you say is entirely possible. We often go out into the wild to just enjoy the experience rather than doing experiments with the wildlife. Or sometimes we're on some other mission besides the wildlife, like mapping the resources. So in some cases us humans as part of the wildlife may be incidental ( as you suggest ).

However on the flip-side, we're also already here. In contrast the aliens are using sophisticated craft that IMO aren't manufactured here, or if they are, they've put in a huge amount of effort to make their facilities undetectable by our civilization. Either way they're not just playing a video game with no real world consequences, and let's face it, getting chased by Air Force jets has to matter. It's not like we're still wandering around herding sheep and ready to sacrifice our first born to them in the belief that they're Gods or something. So they have a purpose and they go out of their way to keep themselves physically separated from us.

Also, while it's true some of alien behavior may have nothing to do with what we think about them, it's also true that scientific and critical thought about the way things work is a more universal concept. Therefore experiments done to elicit certain results are going to have some universally common features. The movie The Arrival sort of hits on this idea. It's not just an anthropocentric principle. It applies evenly to any thinking being.

​

 

[Randall]

Count me in!

Thanks for your support Chris. I ran it briefly by Gene some months back, and a couple of the forum people expressed some initial interest, but timing, the priorities of day-to-day life, and challenges getting everyone on the same page have consistently resulted in the project going onto the back burner. I'll setup a private discussion and as we have time perhaps we can make something gel.

 

[marduk]

I must admit that what you say is entirely possible. We often go out into the wild to just enjoy the experience rather than doing experiments with the wildlife. Or sometimes we're on some other mission besides the wildlife, like mapping the resources. So in some cases us humans as part of the wildlife may be incidental ( as you suggest ).

However on the flip-side, we're also already here. In contrast the aliens are using sophisticated craft that IMO aren't manufactured here, or if they are, they've put in a huge amount of effort to make their facilities undetectable by our civilization.

Again, I'm not so sure about either scenario. If you look at our own trajectory as an intelligent species, I think it very possible that we ourselves will become our machines. Or our machines us, depending on your perspective. The craft themselves could be a computational substrate for a vastly intelligent machine. Or a number of intelligences, all running in parallel. With nanotech, the machines could be produced locally, but not manufactured - they could just be grown from whatever matter is handy. Pure speculation, and here I am playing the maybe game...

But I wonder. I wonder what this kind of thing would be doing here. If we would matter to it at all.

And I wonder what something like that would act like if it were very intelligent, but not conscious.

Either way they're not just playing a video game with no real world consequences, and let's face it, getting chased by Air Force jets has to matter. It's not like we're still wandering around herding sheep and ready to sacrifice our first born to them in the belief that they're Gods or something. So they have a purpose and they go out of their way to keep themselves physically separated from us.

Again, I'm not sure. What you are saying could very well be true.

Or they could have transcended physical reality to such an extent that it's mostly just a game to them. Maybe they're just bored. Maybe air force jets don't matter, or are just a local annoyance - like the weather. Maybe they're just here for the nice views or they think platypuses are funny looking or Earth smells nice.

I think they just act playfully and randomly and just show up and do stuff and leave. The few times I've seen craft, they just seemed to ignore the fact that there were humans around. I've had more personal experiences as well - but these seemed to have a different kind of context and may be entirely subjective.

Also, while it's true some of alien behavior may have nothing to do with what we think about them, it's also true that scientific and critical thought about the way things work is a more universal concept. Therefore experiments done to elicit certain results are going to have some universally common features. The movie The Arrival sort of hits on this idea. It's not just an anthropocentric principle. It applies evenly to any thinking being.

​

Where I'm with you is that they need some form of math and physics to exist and be intelligent.

They may not communicate at all, though. Imagine a hive mind, profoundly decentralized but not with language as we know it. Our neurons don't 'talk' to each other symbolically, they are stimulus/response engines that make up the parallel computing substrate. They may all just be one thing.

Or they may all be lone travellers, essentially immortal, and just be wandering around bored.

The one massive caveat in The Arrival (great movie btw) - is that they came to Earth because of humans in the first place.

One thing's for sure, though. They sure don't seem to acknowledge our society in any organized fashion. At best they relate to individuals, or small groupings of individuals.

Because what they don't do is land on the 50 yard line at Super Bowl and say hi.