trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I think I've seen bits of this program before but never in its original form. It has some interesting footage in it.
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Close Encounters: Proof of Alien Contact
- Thread starter trainedobserver
- Start date
Free episodes:
Kandinsky
Curious Cat
I agree about the footage. It's a god-awful shame about the commentators though. Linda Moulton-Howe as a 'foremost world wide' Ufo expert? And why are the points of light described as 'craft?' Bob Lazar!?
Using a little known algorithm, I've managed to calculate that Moulton-Howe's blink rate means she spends 17.34% of her waking life as a blind person. Remarkable!
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
Using a little known algorithm, I've managed to calculate that Moulton-Howe's blink rate means she spends 17.34% of her waking life as a blind person. Remarkable!
Can you run that for Birnes?
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Youse guys are so mean!
My main criticism of Linda is that she hasn't figured out that crop circles are made by human beings yet.
My main criticism of Linda is that she hasn't figured out that crop circles are made by human beings yet.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
I don't understand that either. It's strange how people will continue looking into something that's a known hoax. They can't let go.
Roro
aka Arlen Royal Woods
Some of us aren't as smart as you and haven't realized that if some are man made that means all are man made. Applying that same logic to the entire realm of the paranormal I now know that since every area has been subject to hoaxes that everything is a hoax and I should stop wasting my time exploring these topics. What a relief. Thanks.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Here's a Norwegian psychic getting duped by a crop circle:
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trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Well you can't drag "the entire realm of the paranormal" into the Crop Circle phenomena. The fact of the matter is that there is no reason to believe that complex crop circles are made by anything other than the people who have confessed and clearly demonstrated the knowledge and skill necessary to create such things. The argument that "humans can't" produce them is absolutely absurd. If you want to think that aliens or whatever are making patterns in crop fields for our edification go ahead, but I think if you make an open-minded investigation into Crop Circles you will conclude that they are definitely man-made.
But dude ...it had a high frequency (holds up arms.)
Roro
aka Arlen Royal Woods
Many of them are definitely man made. I think if you make an open-minded investigation into Crop Circles you might conclude that some of them are not fully explained by the man-made hypothesis. That doesn't mean that aliens are involved or that they are for any particular purpose.
Apparently "if you make an open-minded investigation" is code for "if you consider only the evidence I considered and ignore the rest." That sounds an awful lot like close-minded to me.
I don't have any particular axe to grind over crop circles, I just find your dismissal of them and all who don't agree with you very arrogant and close minded.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Which ones? The things are cataloged pretty well.
What evidence would you care for me to consider? Please cite it.
Please check out the videos at Matthew William's YouTube Channel. He is a convicted Crop Circle maker and his documentary and videos are well worth watching.
I don't think it is arrogant or close-minded to formulate an opinion based on a through (as best as can be) familiarization with the subject, a consideration of the major conflicting viewpoints, and a review of the evidence available. Do you? Honestly? If you have evidence you think I should consider then please reference it and I'll be glad to look at it. If you'll review the videos I've provided a link for I think it represents the "Crop Circles are made by human beings" side of things extremely well. After reviewing that and you still think complex crop circles are made by anything other than human artists then we'll just agree to disagree.
Roro
aka Arlen Royal Woods
You're entire argument seems to be based on proving that humans can make crop circles. I have no doubt that humans can and do make crop circles. I don't think complexity is any barrier to humans making any crop circle. (To me the most interesting circles are simple ones found where people are unlikely to find them, not complex ones placed where they will make the morning news.) It's intellectually dishonest to jump from "humans make crop circles" to "humans make all crop circles, end of story" but that seems to be your position. If you encounter people who insist that humans don't make any crop circles then they are guilty of intellectual dishonesty.
(I have no doubt that you are already aware of the sources I will site below and that you're rebuttal (dismissal) of all the scientific data is already prepared but for the amusement of all let's carry on the charade.)
I believe you are ignoring the data that has been collected in and around crop circles that would suggest something anomalous is involved in some percentage of crop circles, something other than crops being flattened by mechanical means. BLT Research (I expect this is where you go off on Nancy Talbott and dismiss all BLT Research's data) is one organization that has collected samples and conducted analysis. There are papers published in scientific journals on these topics. The BLT Research web site has links to the papers they have published. cropcircleresearch.com is a site with links to plenty of hard data. I don't hear researchers claiming that all crop circles have anomalous properties, only that some do.
I suppose if you have looked at all the data and somehow concluded that even the strange things that are associated with some circles are the result of the crop circle making process used by humans then you feel justified in your conclusion. Explain how that works and perhaps you will convince all of us.
I imagine we will have to agree to disagree.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Really? Please do indicate which journals so that I can peruse the articles. I would love to see them.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Just to clarify. I think Complex Crop Circles are made by human beings because the people making them are telling us that they are and the evidence of human manufacture is there to see if you know what to look for.
So, I am saying that all Complex Crop Circles (which is what most people refer to when talking about the subject) can with a reasonable degree of certainty, be attributed to human beings. I have found no reason to believe otherwise after reviewing the data from sources like you have mentioned. The non-complex crop circles or "saucer nests" which inspired the originators of the modern crop circle phenomena, are for all practical purposes anomalous where weather or animal activity cannot explain them. I'm not talking about those. Now, yes it is possible for aliens (or whatever you want to call them) to come down here and draw pictures in the crops, dirt, or Jr.s sandbox. I'll grant you that. Yes it is possible. Is it probable or likely given the evidence at hand? No, it is not in my opinion.
You wouldn't go into an art museum and look at a row of oil paintings or sculptures and wonder if something other than a human being made them would you? (I am not including the rare cases where animals are trained to produce "art works" for the sake of simplicity) In the same manner, looking at examples of Crop Art it becomes readily apparent that they are manufactured by human beings. There are many indicators in the work itself that Williams points out in several of his videos that show the handy work of human beings. And I'm talking about human beings on the ground with ropes, tapes, boards, and poles and not human beings using HAARP or whatever.
Williams and others have addressed the "paranormal" experiences of crop circle makers and fans have had in known man-made Crop Circles. So the spooky aspect is not restricted by the fact humans make the things. I suspect these experiences have more to do with the humans participating in them than the Crop Circles themselves though. Williams has a couple of videos addressing this and a portion of his documentary deals with it as well should you decide to watch them.
Also, as you research real crop circle makers you will find that some were "believers" to begin with and after investigating the phenomena and realizing its human origin, they decided to become crop circles makers and became part of the myth themselves.
I don't know what to say other than strike up a conversation with one of these crop circle makers, familiarize yourself with the methods and the signs that indicate their human manufacture.
It boils down to this little fact right here. Crop Circles have become a cash cow for the crop circle "researchers." No one wants to look at or pay for shiny books full of man-made crop circles. It is not in their best interests to dispel the mystery of crop circles. They won't be the ones telling you the truth about crop circles.
I am reasonably convinced at this point in time that Complex Crop Circles are a form of graffiti art made by human beings. I find that they might be fun to look at but they are a total waste of time in relationship to the subject of UFOs. They are illegal and immoral when produced at the expense of others which is the case ~98% of the time. If crop circle makers wanted to do this right they would buy land, plant crops, and tramp their own crops down in patterns. Nobody would really be interested in that though would they?
I've changed my opinion about Crop Circles once already so I don't think there is any reason to doubt that I wouldn't do it again in the face of a reasonable argument in the presence of evidence. Do you?
So do you have an example of a complex crop circle that you do not think was made by human beings or not?
So, I am saying that all Complex Crop Circles (which is what most people refer to when talking about the subject) can with a reasonable degree of certainty, be attributed to human beings. I have found no reason to believe otherwise after reviewing the data from sources like you have mentioned. The non-complex crop circles or "saucer nests" which inspired the originators of the modern crop circle phenomena, are for all practical purposes anomalous where weather or animal activity cannot explain them. I'm not talking about those. Now, yes it is possible for aliens (or whatever you want to call them) to come down here and draw pictures in the crops, dirt, or Jr.s sandbox. I'll grant you that. Yes it is possible. Is it probable or likely given the evidence at hand? No, it is not in my opinion.
You wouldn't go into an art museum and look at a row of oil paintings or sculptures and wonder if something other than a human being made them would you? (I am not including the rare cases where animals are trained to produce "art works" for the sake of simplicity) In the same manner, looking at examples of Crop Art it becomes readily apparent that they are manufactured by human beings. There are many indicators in the work itself that Williams points out in several of his videos that show the handy work of human beings. And I'm talking about human beings on the ground with ropes, tapes, boards, and poles and not human beings using HAARP or whatever.
Williams and others have addressed the "paranormal" experiences of crop circle makers and fans have had in known man-made Crop Circles. So the spooky aspect is not restricted by the fact humans make the things. I suspect these experiences have more to do with the humans participating in them than the Crop Circles themselves though. Williams has a couple of videos addressing this and a portion of his documentary deals with it as well should you decide to watch them.
Also, as you research real crop circle makers you will find that some were "believers" to begin with and after investigating the phenomena and realizing its human origin, they decided to become crop circles makers and became part of the myth themselves.
I don't know what to say other than strike up a conversation with one of these crop circle makers, familiarize yourself with the methods and the signs that indicate their human manufacture.
It boils down to this little fact right here. Crop Circles have become a cash cow for the crop circle "researchers." No one wants to look at or pay for shiny books full of man-made crop circles. It is not in their best interests to dispel the mystery of crop circles. They won't be the ones telling you the truth about crop circles.
I am reasonably convinced at this point in time that Complex Crop Circles are a form of graffiti art made by human beings. I find that they might be fun to look at but they are a total waste of time in relationship to the subject of UFOs. They are illegal and immoral when produced at the expense of others which is the case ~98% of the time. If crop circle makers wanted to do this right they would buy land, plant crops, and tramp their own crops down in patterns. Nobody would really be interested in that though would they?
I've changed my opinion about Crop Circles once already so I don't think there is any reason to doubt that I wouldn't do it again in the face of a reasonable argument in the presence of evidence. Do you?
So do you have an example of a complex crop circle that you do not think was made by human beings or not?
Roro
aka Arlen Royal Woods
As I said, BLT Research has links to the articles they have published. See their page http://www.bltresearch.com/published.php
I do not. I only refer you to research pointing to physical evidence that isn't explained by the process of using boards and rope and string and tape measures to flatten crops. Nothing spooky.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Which would be what?
Many of the "anomalies" that researchers have reported finding have been found in known (not necessarily to the researcher though) man-made crop circles. What does that tell you? That's a big tell in my book.
Roro
aka Arlen Royal Woods
I've pointed you to the articles in my last two posts trainedobserver. Those articles contain the what.
If you are convinced that all properties of all crop circles are fully understood and explained by people flattening crops with boards, that's great for you. I just don't agree.
P
pixelsmith
Guest
To think that any intelligent being would travel light years to Earth and then try to communicate via smashing down crops is absurd at best.
Reverse the thinking. If you traveled to some planet light years away would you try to communicate with the inhabitants by destroying their food supply?
Reverse the thinking. If you traveled to some planet light years away would you try to communicate with the inhabitants by destroying their food supply?
vonmazur
Skilled Investigator
Pixelsmith is correct:exclamation: The burden of proof is on those making the assertion of extra terrestrial origin. Parsimony makes it hard to imagine that Aliens do this, for the reasons given above, among others....If one wants to prove something about crop circles, then there has to be a long and involved study, with crops flattened by humans and the results given, (psychics and seers just don't cut the muster in this), the difficulty lies in trying to check circles of supposed alien origin, it becomes a tautological exercise very quickly..
Dale